smoke-filled room. i am a big believer. i seen time and again the more people you have in primaries, the better it makes the candidates the sharper they are by the time they get to the gem election. this -- general election. this does seem to be a challenge, if not logistically, if have you 20, 25 people on the stage during these presidential debates. >> i think so. part of it is a reaction to what happened last knight time which was a coronation for hillary clinton. everybody else was blocked out of the process, with the exception of bernie sanders that was more of an annoyance, although, he did well and stayed in a long time. i think we should put a name in an envelope, a wild card pick and see ba we end up with in 18 months. >> yeah. because there are so many places can you go. you can make the case for 20 different people. >> william castro saying he is exploring it, joe wide isn't going to take time over the holidays to figure out if he will do it. the idea is it's such a crowded

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