we also have to think about this notion -- the president made sure that information voters shu should have had when they were making a choice in the 2016 election, he made sure that information wasn't available for them, and he did that certainly to influence the outcome of the election. that, i think, fits our common concept of what fraud involving an election is. >> and do you need, nelson, to prove intent when it comes to an accusation of defrauding voters? >> we have to separate two things here. what would you have to technically prove if you were trying to convict the president of campaign election law violations? and the second is, what would congress have to consider if they're judging the president's conduct? i spent the morning going over the federalist papers, and kim mccraw made some of the language