to remember part of this whole manturian, he's outside of moscow being pet by vladimir putin every day. this idea of what maybe mueller is trying to get at eventually is manafort obviously had very direct connections with the kremlin. he was working for all the proxies for the kremlin. not just for one or two years, but for ten, 15 years. and he was working against this thing that we are all for, which is ukraine being more western rather than eastern. henry kissinger famously said, ukraine -- russia with ukraine is a european power. russia without ukraine is an asian power. putin wants to be a european power. >> i raise my question with you again. i remember when manafort came on. i mentioned mobutu. you had marcos and others he represented. with trump you have erdogan, kim