years -- betsy woodruff piece. over the years manafort's firm made millions of dollars by representing a rogue gallery of clients, dictators, guerrilla groups and desk pots with no regard for human rights massive amputation ands oversaw state sanctioned rape. the list of manafort's clients is a horror show long before you got to ukraine and russia. mubutu, incredible array. what is that, the fact that paul manafort liked to deal with strong men and donald trump seems to like to have some affinity for strong men. what does that tell you about some of the things that might bind them together? >> and, by the way, that wasn't a red light for donald trump. the thing, john, that i actually know a lot about here is ukraine. i went there three times when i was with the state department. ukraine in that era when manafort was there, was an incredibly corrupt place. so, yes, did he hide money from taxes? yes, because he was getting money in paper bags, millions of dollars from people. the thing that people also have