the flattery are such a constant now, and they have been ever since he was named to donald trump's ticket in july of 2016. like you said, i covered him on the campaign. the cadences, the lines, they're all the same. you know, he just sort of is on repeat. he sticks to the script, and he makes sure he's always praising president trump. who is mike pence? i don't know. he doesn't really seem to have core convictions or beliefs beyond whatever donald trump's decided they are. he used to be for the transpacific partnership. now he's against it. he spoke out against the muslim ban before he was the nominee. on the campaign trail, he defended it as extreme vetting. he is whatever donald trump wants him to be, and i think that's why so many people sort of see him as kind of phony because he and his staffers work so hard to make sure that they're seen as loyal to trump, and the rest of us see someone who doesn't seem to have a lot of beliefs beyond making sure donald trump feels good. >> jackie, one thing he is, is very adept at media. he was one of us. he started life as a radio talk show host. the george will takedown, how big an audience does that speak to within the party, do you think? >> well, george will is basically one of the never-trumpers, so they've sort of been a voice in the