sort of informal back and forth where you're trying to change a narrative, is very very dangerous. and the problem for the president is, facts are not endlessly flexible. you can't just continually change those facts, unless you are just making your pitch to the public and not trying to maintain a legal position. >> well, i'll just tell you that during the transition, donald trump told both joe and me that giuliani was a little out of it. was kind of losing it. and would fall asleep -- it's what he told us. and i don't know if it played into why he didn't become secretary of state. we certainly openly lobbied on the air for that not to happen. because we also thought there was something different with him. >> this is not rudy giuliani gone rogue. this is rudy giuliani with the president's blessing. otherwise it would have ended after the hannity appearance, now he's been out again and