being discussed on the defense side. i think these are small stitches to make out an obstruction case. that doesn't mean that this quilt can't be created but i think people shouldn't overplay it. >> well, it's stitches in a very large quilt perhaps, but mika, remember it was michael flynn who said of this legal defense fund that people were talking about putting together, hey, i want no part of that and when there were talks of pardons he said hey, no part of that either because robert mueller actually gave general flynn what many would consider a sweet heart deal and this is a man who could have possibly been brought up on kidnapping charges, being part of a conspiracy to kidnap somebody, and instead all he got was a very minor charge. and he's been talking to bob mueller for a very long time. that's why it would make so little sense for dowd to be lying. he appears to be lying, but then