games. one hand, plenty of evidence that he's got exposure for something that has nothing to do with russia or the trump campaign. and we've seen that mueller, he goes in. he wouldn't have any problem indicting manafort on all of that stuff to get him to cooperate. but make no mistake. the subject of this investigation is whether the trump campaign conspired with the russians in order to subvert american democracy. if manafort has information about that, that's what's most of interest to special counsel mueller. >> same question to you on that, malcolm, because manafort obviously ran the trump campaign. was brought in late spring, early summer to try to manage the convention process, but at the same time he has separate ties to russia that, and ukraine. do you get the sense that manafort, similar to what i asked about michael flynn. is his exposure that he may have helped to direct russia