anybody else. somebody asked me yesterday would you have gone to that meeting if you had been him, and i said, you know, if i had never been involved in politics and i was just coming to this the first time, i don't know if i would have gone or not, but of course i wouldn't go to that meeting knowing -- >> i had somebody present an alternative theory using the same, which is you had a campaign that couldn't figure out how to work with the rnc. you had a campaign that nobody wanted to work with at that point in time for what it's worth. the establishment -- >> i'm not sure internally the campaign ever kmukd effectively with itself. >> but that made campaign operatives more open to looking for help in alternative ways because they weren't getting traditional help. >> oh, i don't know about that. >> is that an excuse? because i know there's a growing sort of spin on this. well, donald trump jr. didn't know what he was doing. is that an excuse? is that a legitimate excuse? >> i think it could be a reason, but i think that's why we ought to talk to him. we ought to talk to hinl.