to him and he doesn't know who is running the fbi as of that moment. >> i don't know the timing. i don't know when he went to the white house. i know that when we first heard about this, which was -- i'm trying to think back now, it's been a while, 5:30 or so eastern time tonight. >> approaching about 5:45. >> that was before it was on any of the cable networks. when i reached out to senior people at the fbi, they said -- we don't know what you're talking about. what are you telling me. so i don't know, but i don't know when mccabe went to the white house for his meeting. i do know that justice department officials tell us that sessions and rod rosenstein called him to tell him about this, so i'm -- i gather that he found out about it before jim comey did. >> pete williams, thank you very much for joining us on this long and important day. really appreciate your time. >> you bet. >> she's the president of the center of american progress. she supported hillary clinton. also joining us -- for msnbc and