debated on both sides, that the nra did not shut down at the start. >> well, we had a debate and we had a vote, indeed, although it never reached the house, on universal background checks. the reality here is that this is a very complex issue. i'm not one of those people who thinks if you flood the zone with firearms, everything will work out, but if you look at the state, for example, like vermont, where there are no gun laws at all, you also see pretty much no crime, pretty much no gun death. then you look at a state like louisiana, which has more lax gun laws and a lot of crime. this is a difficult question. there is, unfortunately, no big, substantial evidence to suggest that what obama is proposing is going to do anything. >> have you heard one suggestion or proposal you believe would be significant? >> sure. the one thing i think that we could start with is to make it a crime to avail somebody that you know or have good reason to suspect is mentally ill or wishes others harm of a firearm. you can't do that in general. you can't say that if a gun seller provides a firearm to someone who passes a background check and then they misuse it, he should end up in prison.