you know, reveals very clearly. >> jim, katrina brings up the point about sort of what's happened to detroit. this is not necessarily a story of bloated pensions, although pensions and the problem with finding enough money to fund these pensions, however small they may be, is an issue across the country. the other part of this is the declining work force in detroit. if you look at the city employment in 1951, there were 30,000 employees. in 2013, there were 10,500. the unemployment rate in the city is 18.8%. you're a bankruptcy attorney. what happens next here, if, in fact, detroit is able to file for chapter 9? how rosy -- or what is the picture of this city in the years to come? >> well, the real success of this, chapter 9 is just a process. it's a way of reducing debt to what is sustainable and affordable. what we really need to do, especially with the workers, is to have buy-in because you're going to need the workers and the citizens and retirees going