by a debt ceiling default. i suspect that's not their motivation, though. i think they heard from some of the bondholders and the big hedge fund managers and the like, and wall street said don't do this. so they're not going to -- they're going to try not to do it. the problem is if you don't open up the government, we know that there are millions of people being hurt by the government shutdown. the whole american public is being hurt. it really needs to be coupled with opening up the government. if they'll open up the government, if they'll raise the debt ceiling, then we can talk and we can start to move forward finally. >> and that is the key point. will the democrats hold the line that we're not going to do anything until you open up the government, and then we'll talk debt ceiling. is that where the caucus is right now? >> i hope. this is just happening as we're talking. >> sure. >> i think that's where the caucus will be. and i think in the senate, harry reid is going to say no. and even the republican senators are going to say no, we can't decouple this. we've got to do both things at

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