2 1/2 times the rate of inflation over the last 30 years. that's faster than health care costs. why is this happening? >> it's a real challenge. two basic things. one, states have to continue to invest. and when states don't invest, universities, particularly public ones, raise their tuitions. and secondly, we have to continue to challenge universities to become more efficient and to use technology to do more in those classes and we have to -- this is all about shared responsibility. we have to invest, we need to continue to invest, states have to do their part. universities have to do it as well. >> what about the republican's argument that the reason college is getting more expensive over time is because of the government trying to help people afford it? that student grants and loans are pushing the price of education higher over time. >> well, it's just factually incorrect.