one of the things i would like to present, you mentioned portugal and netherlands, far more liberal drug policies have lower drug use. if we can decriminalize drugs and have lower drugs use, would that be a good trade? a lot of people would say no. it's a moral issue, behave to criminalize it because it's bad. that's short sighted. the goal is to reduce the harms of bad drugs. >> the affirmative case is when you think of md in,a, ecstasy, this is a grug that had tremendous therapeutic trouble and uses and you see a variety -- >> there is an article in "the times" about this. >> absolutely. people are profoundly depressed and have other mall difficults. the fear surrounding these drugs, the fear that, you know, surrounding the notion that anyone might derive any pleasure from the use of these drugs and the kind of panic that that kind of has given rise to i think has been a real problem. >> there is a prohibition movement that started with alcohol and still goes today.