simpson. you believe that new revenues are central to congress' efforts to reduce the deficit. if you can't do tax hikes, where are you going to get this money? >> well, there are a variety of different proposals, and nobody has -- no organization or commission or anyone else has suggested you can get to $4 trillion to $6 trillion without additional revenues. for those of us in favor of revenue increases, that doesn't mean we're in favor of increasing tax rates, particularly at this time. you can get it by eliminating loopholes and those types of things. some people will call those tax hikes, i don't do that. i think if we lower the rates and created a more pro-growth tax policy and eliminated those exemptions underneath, at least a majority of them, you'd get additional revenue. >> congressman shuler, i'm wondering, though, if you're willing to go after medicare and social security, how deep are you willing to go in those cuts?