the key to understand is until the intelligence science board study that you referenced earlier, the last time the united states funded any real objective research into interrogation was 1956. so it's time that we bring interrogation up to the 21st century alongside other tactical intelligence methods. so we don't have these debates based on politics or personal interest, but over science of what works and what doesn't work. >> it seems the reports we're getting from the experienced interrogators in this territory, it's the overall thrust of it is that it just doesn't work and that the more careful, cultivating a relationship with the subject is what is going to pay off both quicker and longer term. >> that's absolutely correct. the single quality, the single approach that i hear from the best interrogators that america's produced is simply this, empathy.