that's the way management works with labor. senator lowden, how do republicans win these things? >> it's not as simple as wages. it's also a part of the collective bargaining is with health care issue, for instance. can you bid out health care and find cheaper prices? it's with days off. with sick leave. those kinds of issues are very important. it's not just wages. >> and that drives up state deficits? >> yes, it does. yes, it does. and you have to be able to get into those contracts and make it public. how about opening those bargaining sessions so that the public can see it so the taxpayers who are paying it can see what's going on. and i think that's an important issue as well. >> well, you haven't balanced the budget yet. we had governor rendell on this thing before this thing got hot, before it got in the skill let, if you will. and he said he was left with a big pension definite problem by the previous governor, a republican on his way out the door signed a bill that left him with a big, big pension bill he can't pay.