that some historian maybe 200 years from now, might be writing, look the normal state of affairs is arbitrary abuse and control by others, and there's this little tiny curiosity where, a relatively few people had a large amount of liberty for a short amount of time, but it all went back to the normal state of affairs. that is arbitrary abuse and control by others. mark: do you think liberty has the seeds of its own demise? that there's a paradox because people who are unwilling about liberty can use liberty to destroy liberty? >> that is absolutely right. they can use liberty to destroy liberty. they can use the -- if you look at totalitarians around the world, they always start at they are for free speech. that is because they need free speech to get their foot in the