wire on him. they don't want to have to rely on him and his testimony. any good defense attorney would start out by saying tell us all the lies you engaged in. now why should we believe you now because you are getting a deal? you would sell your mother for this deal. so what they want to get from him is not testimony, they want to get self-proving evidence. somebody else's voice on a wire. >> bill: we don't know if he was wearing a wire. it has been suggested. >> it's a good suggestion. he may not have been wearing a wire but he was trying to obtain evidence that doesn't rely on his own credibility. >> bill: if he obtained evidence let's say for the sake of this discussion only, would we not know what that or where that evidence led? >> no, because what mueller's plan is, domino by domino. he has three dominos now and try to squeeze them to get another domino to see if they can get somebody closer to the president. then even closer to the