and who has access to the oval office and the president himself is this exact reason. if you are not controlling the flow of information to the president and a responsible way and you're not controlling access to the president and a responsible way, anyone tom and sally who work in the west wing can grab him and get a word with him. this is a major source. >> harris: i want to press the idea of who would be inside the administration when they do the shaming that you're talking about, how effective that might be. >> gillian: here's the thing. shaming is the worst-case scenario, you have to do a little bit of shaming if you want to put this up on the front and back, but if you can dissuade people from doing this because they feel like they're going to get called out, that's more effective way of going about it. for example, if you know -- you

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