prison. we're not even talking about people who have been to prison. people who have been arrested and have probation, they've never been behind the prison walls. >> so you think that this should be across the board, ban the box? that's what this is called? >> yes. i think that people should be given a fair chance to start. then once an employer looks through their record or through the background check, then they can determine if they like the person, then go through the background check. in the very beginning, there is no reason to discriminate and throw somebody's background or application away. >> david, you disagree on that? >> completely. it's discriminatory against business in this country and discriminatory against employers that they have to have the right to know whether or not you've been convicted of a crime or not. that is a basic due diligence of any employer in this country and i agree. we do have too many convicted criminals, but it shouldn't be incumbent upon the business owners and any employer, whether it's the state or private business, to not know immediately -- >> you do know. >> they don't know.