americans who were innocent and they want back some notorious criminals, that would set a bad pres dents. one thing i'll say on this, this is a test of leadership. being president is not easy. president biden has immense pressure from the u.s. families. so this probably does cause him sleepless nights, but in the end, it's likely to be a pretty poor precedent to set if we go through with this. >> we heard from trevor reed's mother yesterday who said she doesn't care how he comes back. she just wants her son back, which perhaps is what you would expect from a mom. >> right. >> as we are watching, the world is watching this meeting that is going to be happening here in a day with vladimir putin and president biden. what are the pitfalls as you see them for potentially for president biden because you know this is a high-risk meeting? >> sure. so first and foremost i don't think we should expect any deliverables coming back from