don't think mueller goes after someone unless he knows he has the goods. if you read the documents in these cases, they're really strong. not just giving little bits of information about why someone is guilty of a crime. they're what we call speaking charges, speaking indictments. even the ones against the folks for example at the gru, the folks in russia who were charged with various crimes, who were never going to be in the country, never going to be able to slap cuffs on. the detail in these charging documents is such that i think mueller appreciates even more than the average prosecutor the importance of the public having confidence that he's bringing cases that are well grounded in fact. >> according to this report also they have discussed whether or not anyone around the president had broached the idea of a pardon. and if a pardon was broached, what's the significance -- is that a possible obstruction? >> you have to be careful what conclusions you draw from the questions that prosecutors ask.