value. thousands of hacked e-mails that might have been used in order to determine the outcome or influence the outcome of the federal presidential election. >> now, while you started off there being a little narrow, right? you were being a little generous in terms of what collusion can yield as a crime. it actually starts to get very broad depending on your facts. look at paul manafort. you got 30-plus charges there. it can go lots of different directions depending on money, activity, and intent. so then you get to, what's your bar for mueller? i would argue that the mueller probe is supposed to be about what happened with russian interference, who helped, and what crimes arise in the pursuit thereof, right? that's his mandate. if the bar is whether or not the president or any of his people were involved in those russian efforts, don't you think whoever wants that to be the bar is going to be disappointed based on what we know so far? >> well, we don't know what the mueller investigation is ultimately going to produce in terms of clear, dispositive,