Investigate. Its the 1950s and the era of mccarthy ism. Well explore the hearings. Republicans senator Joseph Mccarthy of wisconsin and instigated as he search for alleged communists in government. And well also look at the subsequent investigation of senator mccarthy himself over his attacks on the us army, which led to the senators downfall. Joining us is jim townsend, director of the levin center for oversight and democracy. Mr. Townsend. What was the mccarthy era . Well, the mccarthy era was a period in the early 1950s where the public had become really quite concerned about the possibility of communist infiltration into major american institutions, including the United States government and senator mccarthy, who was a first term senator from wisconsin, took advantage of that public concern. And his position on certain key committees in the senate to start raising allegations, making allegations against various institutions in the government, particularly in the military and in aspects of the state department. And he used his position as a congressional investigator to hold numerous hearings, both in private and in public, to explore these allegations and then to make further accusations about the infiltration of of of communists in American Government and american society. Mr. Townsend, was the red scare alleged intimate thing at that time in the late forties, early fifties . Well, i think its hard to say whats legitimate and whats not. There was theres no doubt that the historical record indicates that there was you know, there were communists who would infiltrated and were spying on the United States. Theres no doubt about that. The question is whether the investigations that senator mccarthy mounted were legitimate, whether his tactics were were actually, you know, fair and and proper, and whether they actually found any evidence of communist infiltration. And the answer is really no. They were not fair. They were not appropriate. They were an abuse of congressional oversight power. And they uncovered virtually no instances of communists infiltration. That does not mean that there was not communist infiltration. Other investigations, others analysis has shown that there were people who had invest who had infiltrated the state department. The u. S. Military, even the white house. But it turns out that senator mccarthys investigations probably impeded the effort to try to root out the spies and and protect American National security and the integrity of our institutions. He really hurt that effort because he really wasnt interested in frankly, in succeeding, in finding these communists. He was really trying to promote himself and build his own political stature more than anything else. When senator mccarthy was elected in 1946, did he come in with this mantra of finding communists in the government . Not initially. The record indicates that he was pretty quiet for the first three years of his service, beginning in 1947. It was only in in 1950 that he started to really pick up this issue of communist infiltration. And he gave a very what became a very famous or infamous speech in wheeling, West Virginia, in 1950, where he claimed to have in his hand on a piece of paper a list of 200 known communists who had infiltrated the federal government. He never, of course, released those names and ultimately was never able to prove that the people he was identifying were actually communist spies. But it raised his profile dramatically, and, you know, to your question about sort of the red scare, his timing was very good. He he seized on this issue in 1950 when it was still a high concern among the population, among among the public. And he gave it a huge shot of adrenaline, basically, and it carried him for several years and made him very prominent. Well, mr. Townsend mentioned the wheeling, West Virginia speech in 1950. Historian Margaret Brennan talked about senator mccarthys speech. Here she is. Now, it was at the time of the lincoln day dinner, all across the country, republicans were fanning out speakers to speak at the great gatherings of the lincoln day dinners. And so mccarthy it was a sign to wheeling. Now, wheeling at that time was not a big city. We had 59,000 people. It was thursday, february the ninth, 1950. The dinner itself was held at the Mcclure Hotel colonnade room. It was to start at 630. It was the ohio county republican womens club, and it was in the papers four days before how they were organizing. This was a big deal for wheeling, he was introduced by william callahan, who was the regional republican bigwig, and they describe him the talk that he gave as intimate and humorous and kind of folksy. He, he he had an irish wit about me. He could be very ingratiating when he wanted to be beautiful. Big grin and he pretty much talked about the republican platform as it was laid out. He didnt say too much. He talked about the war between good and evil, between atheistic communism and the christian democratic societies. He talked about the alger, his trial. Now, alger hiss had just been convict, convicted some weeks before of perjury, but actually he was being convicted as a spy. And that was a very big deal. And so he went on about that and then toward the end of the talk he made, what was the key to the talk and what started him on the road to what became known as mccarthyism. And i want to read exactly the words from the newspaper and what he said was, well, i cannot take the time to name all the men in the state department who have been named as members of the communist party and members of a spy ring. I have here in my hand a list of 205, and he waved a piece of paper to the people that were known to the secretary of state as being members of the communist party, who nevertheless are still working and shaping the policy in the state department. Now, anybody that had the sense to hear this was a terrific charge because he was saying there were card carrying communist in the state Department Working as members of the American Government. And the secretary of state knew this and they were still there. Well, then he went on, of course, he continued his talk and at the end he said, well, now, you know, its a moral battle between good and evil. The chips are down. The chips are truly down. He kind of ended with that and there was some questions and answers. He even invited the audience to to talk to him and there it lay now. Ww va the local Radio Station had carried his talk. One of the reporters from the wheeling and telegrams or in in the paper the next day had reported verbatim a lot of what he had said when mccarthy was to go back to the airport. He was shown the paper and the headline in the wheeling paper was mccarthy charges the reds hold us jobs, and they said he was tickled with the headline and it was beginning to dawn on him. He had something here and he was set up for a series of talks. The next day he flew out to salt lake city. Then after that, he was going to go to reno, nevada. And another he made the same statement in salt lake city, except he changed the number from 205 to, i think, 58. Then in his next talk and next series of talks, the number went to 81. He was always changing the number because he had no list. He had no names. It was all a big lie. And this is congress investigates, an American History tv series looking at significant congressional investigations over the years. Jim townsend, director of the levin center for oversight and democ racy, is our guest. How much news did that wheeling, West Virginia enemies from within speech make and why did he deliver that . Well, it made a lot of news. It got a lot of attention. There was no recording, actually, of this speech. So our understanding of it is really based on peoples accounts who witnessed the speech, but it was covered in the media and it got a lot of attention because people were were concerned about the possibility that communists were infiltrating not only the government, but hollywood, many other institutions. There had been a series of efforts to to try to find out whether communists were infiltrating our society, starting really with efforts by the Truman Administration to require federal employees to take to fill out forms and and give evidence about their own activities and that was a sweeping effort beginning in 1947. There was also an effort in the house of representatives. There was a committee convened called the committee on on unamerican activities, which had started doing investigations and holding hearings. So the country was really primed for evidence of communist infiltration. And senator mccarthy, even though he really, it turned out, did not have evidence invented evidence and made a name for himself by doing so. Now, the huber committee, Richard Nixon was very involved with that committee. Correct. And held. Alger hiss was one of the witnesses that testified before the house unamerican activities committee, correct . Thats correct. There were many, Many Americans were brought before the house unamerican activities committee. The committee had several iterations. Youre correct that nixon, when he was in the house, was an active participant in that. There were field hearings held all over the country. It became a sort of traveling roadshow, and it generated a lot of local Media Attention when these hearings were held. And that to, you know, translated into Real National attention. So, again, this is all part of that that red scare that occurred in the in the decade that followed the second world war. Now, jim towns in wheeling, West Virginia in 1950, but it wasnt until 1953 that the republicans took over the senate, had control of the senate and the mccarthy hearings really took off what was going on in those three years prior . Well, there had been sort of an escalating effort to make communism infiltration a major issue in campaigns. And in the 1952 and payne joe mccarthy, who was a senator at that point, was going around the country supporting republican candidates for senate. He he used the issue and he encouraged these candidates to use the issue. And he was quite effective on the people he campaigned for. Got elected to the senate and the republican took control of the senate in the 1952 election. And so in 1953, they had a majority in the senate and could could appoint people to committees and chair committees and control the agenda in congress and he became chair of the permanent subcommittee on the day. Senator mccarthy, who had been a member of the Government Affairs committee, became chair of the committee and a the key investigative subcommittee within that Government Affairs committee. And that is the permanent subcommittee on investigations. So mccarthy chaired both of these panels and in particular, that permanent subcommittee on investigate issues, which is known as piece i became his vehicle for conducting the investigations that he did in the many, many hearings that he held. He built a staff. He hired some some some pretty prominent attorneys to help him do these, investigate actions. And that became his his mechanism for mounting his effort. Jim townsend during this time, what was the truman administra tions response to these hearings . Well, the Truman Administration vigorously defended itself in terms of both, you know, continuing to. Require that its, you know, the members of the administration, members of the, you know, employees in the u. S. Government. Answer questions about their loyalty and about their activities. So the Truman Administration was not, you know, backing off from from trying to find communists who might be spying or might be infiltrating the government. But at the same time, they vigorously oppose the kinds of tactics that that senator mccarthy was employing. You know what what senator mccarthy would do would be to basically rely on rumors and even invented evidence to suggest the whole departments of government were under the sway of communists. One of his chief targets early on was the voice of america, which was a service that the United States government provided to broadcast news around the world, particularly in countries that that were under the control of totalitarian governments. And he claimed that the voice of america had been infiltrated heavily by communists, spies. The trump administration, you know, would examine and look into these allegations and and find that this was not the case. And they would say so. But that didnt stop. Senator mccarthy from continuing to hold investigations and conduct hearings both in private and in public. Okay. Were calling these the mccarthy hearings, but no special committee was formed. Correct. It was the permanent subcommittee on investigate nations that led these hearings. Thats right. The permanent subcommittee on investigations was and still is really the premier investigate arm of the u. S. Senate. And it had made a name for itself during World War Two under the leadership of then senator harry truman when he investigated war profiteering and corrupt activities among defense contractors who were producing shoddy, shoddy materials, who were engaging in other kinds of corrupt activities that were hurting the war effort during World War Two. So psc, as i mentioned, is sort of as its no. Had a pretty pretty prominent reputation as a an effective committee for doing investigations in the public interest. So senator mccarthy had you know, was able to take over that subcommittee and turn it to his own ends, which turned out to be highly politicized and and really improper in the way he conducted investigations. All right. Its 1953, 1954. The mccarthy hearings. This is where senator mccarthy pursued communists in government. He chaired the permanent subcommittee on investigations. The other republican members, carl mundt of south dakota, Everett Dirksen of illinois, Charles Potter of michigan. There were three democrats on the committee as well. John mcclellan of arkansas, Henry Jackson of washington, and Stuart Symington of missouri. Those hearings lasted from february of 53 through march of 90, 54 for the reports came out beginning in january. Of 1954. What can you tell us about the other members of the committee . Did they agree with senator mccarthy . Were they eager to be on this committee and do this investigation . Well, you have to understand the context of the Government Affairs committee and the permanent subcommittee on investigations. Government Affairs Committee was not the most desirable committee for members to be on. It was sort of a place where newer members, first term members, would would end up serving because more experienced, more senior members would want to be on higher profile committees. So the interesting thing about the makeup of the committee and particularly that permanent subcommittee, which did the actual investigations and held the hearings, was that was that all of them, except for one, were first term members, including mccarthy himself. He was still in his first term and at least one case mccarthy, who helped that member get elected in the first place. So Everett Dirksen was a first term senator from illinois. And mccarthy in 1952 had traveled to illinois and campaigned extensively for dirksen. So the bottom line is, is that these members were on this subcommittee. It was it became pretty quickly divided between the democrats and the republicans. The democrats were led by Henry Jackson, who was another first term member from jackson, was from washington state. And he and the other democrats were really, really frustrated with the way they were treated by mccarthy. They were not kept in the know about what the slocum party was going to be doing in its investigation. They had no role. They were not allowed to hire their own staff. They were not given notice in a very timely way when hearings were going to be held. So they couldnt prepare an ultimately, the three democrats, jackson john mcclellan, who was the only member who was not a first termer, he was from arkansas. And then stuart simonton, you mentioned from missouri. They resigned from the committee in protest in 1954 because of the behavior of mccarthy in the way he treated. Two other familiar names were part of this investigation. Royko, cohn and robert f kennedy. Well, what were their roles . Well, roy cohn was hired in 1953 when senator mccarthy took over the permanent subcommittee on investigations. He hired cohn to be the chief counsel. Cohn was relatively wellknown because he had been on the team that prosecuted ethel and julius rosenberg, who were spies, who were convicted of spying and actually executed. So he had a reputation as a very aggressive investigator, a prosecutor. It later became clear that he was very unethical and very abrasive and unethical, but he was the kind of person that would really be an attack dog in the kind of lawyer that that mccarthy needed. And Robert Kennedy. Robert kennedy was also hired to be assistant counsel on the permanent subcommittee at about the same time in 1953. Of course, he was a scion of the massachusetts kennedy family, the democrats and he was an ardent anticrime. And so were really the kennedy family. The kennedys were very ardent. Andy communists and and the patriarch of the kennedy family, joseph kennedy, admired senator mccarthy. So it was not a complete surprise that Robert Kennedy would would join this effort. But he did not last very long. He began having problems with with roy cohn. They they had very intense conflicts and ultimately had even a fistfight, after which Robert Kennedy resigned from from a committee staff. Okay. With the mccarthy hearings lasting a