The book yet youre going great. Okay, okay, great. Okay. Just we are going to have time for questions so that i dont want to make a fitness contest. So there is a mic there. But if you have trouble getting to the mic, ill come to you. So just, you know, well well jump into your questions, the conversations talk up here for a bit and then well come to because obviously you all got a lot on your minds. So, so this book was so fascinating to me. Im so glad you wrote it because was its hard for a journalist. I mean, as a journalist, youre kind of trained to. Keep your business out of it. I mean, i know that thats, you know, some people are different, but the way were trained, we have been trained is to keep your story out of it. So was it that made you want to both combine your reportage with your own personal that was such a hard decision, but fundamentally i felt like i had a unique perspective and i had something i really wanted to say and but i thought hard about that youre right. You know, old school journalism, you keep yourself out of it. You stay out of it. And the truth is, i had spent so many years outside the evangelical, id had my own really complicated and sometimes painful process of disentangling a lot of things from my childhood, trying to make sense of them, trying to figure out who i was and wanted to be in this world. And then i got assigned to cover the 2016 campaign and suddenly white evangelicals, the world that i grown up in were right at the center of so many stories and and so many other journalists were were asking the question in writing the stories about was the evangelical movement, which so central to the Republican Party base going to do about donald trump . And, you know, forward i got done doing that, spent a few years thinking about it. Lots people said you should write a book. And i said, no, i dont want to do a memoir. No, i dont want to do a campaign book. And but i kept sort of seeing these evangelical spaces online where. People who grew up like me were trying make sense of this moment and lots of other things connected with that background. And i became fascinated with it. And, you know, as a reporter when you see something happening, you see a story, want to tell it, especially Something Like that that. I knew so much about personally. And i decided, you know, for this, as i say in the book, i couldnt stand on the sidelines. I wanted to be very transparent about my own experiences, but talk about those in conversation with those of of so many other people. So, so, you know, im not making about anybody, but we live in a world in which i cant wait. I im just going to say that a lot of people are disconnected from religion and dont really it isnt part of their life experience. So for people for whom that is true. How would you describe what does it mean to be evangelical so before we i dont know what it is to be evangelical before we talk about what it means to be expand jellicle, i should start by saying that it means a lot of Different Things for different people. And thats one of the things i wanted to convey in this, is that a lot of people have a complicated with it. I think with any faith background that can be true. But this is the one im part of and it happens to be a influential one or one that i grew up with. You know, i think for me, growing up, the good things were it community, it was meaning, it was sort of a guide for life how youre supposed to live, you know. We spent a lot of time talking about who we were supposed to be in this world, what god wanted, what was true, what was right and. I think those are questions that most of us ask ourselves sometimes right in the middle of the night, like, why am i here . Am i supposed to be doing while im here . And evangelicalism offered some very clear and certain answers for that and i think thats what i found comforting for a time, until those didnt didnt feel they really fully added up for me. Well but talk can i just ask if feel comfortable sharing and if you dont you dont have but are there those among us who have experienced themselves with the evangelical movement . Do you consider yourself to be youve grown up in it. You know what it is . Its its been a part of your life. You have a personal experience with it. Okay. Just just just wanted to know, are there those among us if you feel comfortable saying who really are like, what the heck . Like, what does this even mean . Its jerry falwell. Like, thats dont scary. Dont like it. I dont like it. Okay. Just wanted to sort of see where we are just so we can figure out, like, how to talk, right . So theologically, are there certain prisons or one of the points that you make in the book is that, you know, this isnt necessarily Theological Movement anymore. Its not about faith commitments. Its become something else. But for the sake of arguing it, what was the evangelical movement that you think your parents what were the commitments that they adhering to . Yeah, and its a really category. And as you know, a journalist, one that people argue about all time. But but fundamentally, you know, historians have sort of outlined think basically for and ill see if i can remember them. But four fundamental pieces of evangelical one is a belief in jesus christ salvation through jesus christ. Another is a commitment the bible. And that usually involves a literal and erroneous view of the bible. It was its inspired by god, and its without error. And its the ultimate guide for life. The next one is some sense of evangel ism, an obligation to that faith and share with others the good news. Its good news. Why would you keep it to yourself and then the fourth pieces has something to with activism engagement with the world. And that can mean that can mean social action but but for increasingly during my certainly it has meant Political Engagement and usually for a specific but it didnt always mean that. Did it start to mean that you because because there was a time in which evangelicals issued a lot worldly engagement. They were like, no, thats not we dont we dont want do our thing and stay out of that evangelicalism. You know, obviously its a movement that came out of protestantism. Yes. There was a time when it was very. And historians, which im not, but i, i cite them in my book, would would say, yes, there was a time that evangelicals kind of kept their distance from politics. I think the best histories ive read of it sort of pegged the timing to around the time integration in public schools. That seemed to be a big driver, the Christian School movement and for and i think also as the country became more diverse and also separately less religious over time, weve seen a decline in White Christian power fundamentally and so, you know, historians like Randall Balmer and, kristin cobb as jim and a lot of others traced the rise of the evangelical political to those trends, a more diverse country and, also a less christian country. I want to be clear, those are separate trends. A lot of a lot of people of color are and often christian. Well, you know that is interesting and i do want to say that one of the things i appreciate about your book is that you name the whiteness, because its one of the things thats kind of ill just be honest, frustrating to me a journalist is that everybody is allowed be black or latino or asian or egypt. Nobody seems to want to be white. And, you know, i mean, its like its almost like its the unnamed like well, but if youre not but why are you like the creamy Peanut Butter and everybody else is crunchy . Like, whats that thought. So that doesnt. Yeah but you kind of name whiteness as a big part of this movement you are explicit in that and im just as briefly as you can because i know it is its a deep stem. Why is that so important . Well, fundamentally because even though christians of color ill say black christian specifically because theres i think been more work done comparing, the two movements, black christians and White Christians hold the same theological beliefs are similar, but they both are very differently. And i think that reflects a different lived experience, different priorities, different values based on different lived experience. So, you know, two people can both be christians, but that means very Different Things to different people. Oh, thats facts 100 . I remember ask and i dont want to call him out right here, but you can figure it out. I know. I ask. Theres a prominent white evangelical leader once and i put question to him. I said, gee, why do you think it is that you can have folks who have such similar theological commitments, but such different political behavior. Why do you think that is . And hes like, he basically his answer is because people get more money from the government. Im like. I that question one said a trump rally of a and what would they say trump supporter he said that black people had been misled by the oh, you didnt say the devil you can you could turn it around and, ask why . Well, you know, you can ask the question in reverse but but yeah its an interesting question to ask. Yeah. So, so heres one of the things i like about the book too, is that you dont its not just its not just like a political project. I mean, although that is worthy you talk about like the personal side what as a lived experience so do you want to talk a little bit about that like in fact theres a reading we were talking about that i wanted to ask if youd start with and it starts with people need the lord. Yeah all right and thanks for the musical accompaniment wherever thats coming from. Some of you on the tracks. Well, no, the song that im not going to sing it, but the chapter is called people need the lord and im just going read a short section. Dear lord, i prayed thank you for this food and this day and i pray that grandpa will get saved in jesus name. Amen. Every night the six of us, my parents two sisters, my brother and me gathered around our antique wooden Kitchen Table and someone prayed a version that prayer for my grandfather. I didnt know much about him. Only his house was filled with interesting objects, artwork and books that. He played Classical Music on the grand piano in living room that the kitchen smelled of garlic and sherry from his beloved cooking, and that he always had least one cat lurking around the house. I knew that he was, a brain surgeon, and i understood that was something we were proud of. But i couldnt understand why he didnt love jesus. The man with the gentle face surrounded by the herd of fluffy sheep in the tiny framed on my bedroom shelf. What i did know was that grandpa and my aunts and uncles were going to hell. Like everyone who didnt believe in jesus, their souls were in great danger. We had to pray for them, parents told us. And whenever we saw we had to be a witness, be friendly, respectful, wellbehaved, so as to show the light of jesus. Being evangelical meant evangelize, sharing the news of jesus with everyone we could before it was too late. And this was especially urgent for the people we loved most. Our family. If they could see jesus shining through, they might be drawn to him and understood that they were lost in the darkness. And that if they would simply believe and, pray to receive him in their hearts, they become better people here on earth. And then when they died, go to heaven with us, though we an eternity of separation from our family members who would be in hell while. We were in heaven. My parents seemed cautious about spending time with them. We were together here on earth. My grandpa only a few miles away, but we see him much mostly at holidays, major family gatherings, no sleepovers, no group vacations, no hanging out at grandpas house. We probably spent more time there for the few years of life when my grandmother called, mima was alive. But thats only a fuzzy memory of a memory. She was gone not long after, my third birthday, so on the occasions we visited grandpas house, i was on my best behavior. The stakes could not have been higher my childishness obedience, even my failure to the joy of jesus that should clearly radiating from my heart could cost my relatives their very carrying that heavy truth. I put on a smile. Oh, thats a lot to carry for. Like my personal story about this is the skate park. When you went to skate and you, there was a girl who you met who you thought, well, i should try to convert her. And you were like, you know, but how do i do it . And youre like, it felt a little much for skate land. And she was like, do you go to church . She goes, sometimes my dads here. And she was like, oh, man, you know, i missed it. I blew it like this little window. Because, you know, i talk in the book about not all evangelical kids are quite as surrounded by evangelical subculture as i was, but a lot are, you know, the Christian School and homeschool movements were huge when i was growing up in the eighties and nineties. So everybody i knew was an evangelical. I mean, my grandpa was in a few other family members were really. The only people i knew who werent not just not christians, but not and so this this girl, this it was a remedial skating, i need to say, because thats cool. I am. But yeah, id known her for a few weeks and i just, you know, she was like one of these few people that maybe i could save. I just felt such responsibility. But the piece that comes through here that funny is that the fear like that youre, living with this heaviness of fear, fear of messing up, fear of sinning, fear of disappointing friends. Could you just talk a little bit . Why is fear so much a part of the. I think its because i think that, you know, i think for many people, its its not and maybe maybe you find faith as an adult and have a more sort of complex view of the world. Maybe it just hits. But when youre a little kid and everybody around you literally believes in all of and its all you know, its terrifying. I mean, terrifying to think that so much is stake. So much is on your shoulders. And i realize that everyone doesnt experience religion this way. And religion doesnt isnt always expressed this way. But for myself and so many other evangelicals i have met the real world and online it was a huge theme and it was it was around meeting to save people. It was also around just, you know, how you conduct yourself, a fear of going outside the lines, which had been so clearly drawn. Do feel that thats a particular fear more . Is it gendered in part that, boys have the same fear as girls because a lot is placed on girls and purity and modesty and, you know, being told what to do, you know you know you know i would say the men i talk to you for this book, especially the men who were who were gay felt that as but i do think that theres another layer and another dimension in in many religious for women and certainly for and within evangelicalism i mean there is expectation of modesty. I would be, i think, very appropriately dressed because its a little long skirt. So but but thats just coincidental. Yeah. You know, at my Christian School, we had to wear long dresses and the girls were told its your job to you know, to keep to keep your brothers eyes is one of the lines we would hear you know, your brothers meaning your brothers in the men. But, you know, i dont want to i didnt want to diminish pressure that was on men as well. It was just a different kind of pressure. So when did the next for you . I mean, youve made it clear that this was for some people. And i think this is very this is something that i learned from the book too, is just what a polarizing event and what a crisis the Trump Campaign was is for people who identify as evangelical, i mean, and because, you know, im thinking of people people who are prominent, im thinking about russell more for who was the head of a very important division of the Southern Baptist convention. You know the ethics and Public Policy division which is like the outward facing Lobbyist Group for whom the Trump Campaign was a real crisis and it actually led to him leaving that movement and hes written about it so im not telling his private business and but but what found fascinating about your book is how what a crisis this was for people who arent who arent outward facing people just their lives trying to figure out how to be in the world. But it started before that for. You so what was the x . Where was the x starting for you . And i think this moment, the trump moment, which put evangelicalism so the spotlight in so many ways was for a lot of people, a turning point a deciding point. And the people i write about in the book, some of them that was it. It was last straw. Others it was other other things that had happened along the way or this moment was when suddenly, you know, not only is is is trump sort the champion of the christian right, but, you know, were living in a time where there are so many Different Social Media spaces where, you can talk about anything. So there was a place now for people to go and talk about this and they definite lee did for me when i started sort of these conversations happening i recognize them from from long ago in my own life as you say i you know i cant pinpoint point when i started sort of deconstructing my faith to use another kind of internet buzzword that has come along in the last few years in a big and it was not a word i had at the time you know i stopped going to evangelical churches a year or two after i graduated from an evangelical college. So in my early mid twenties, that was that was after many of struggle, you know, many conversations with, have to say, Christian College professors and some of my Even High School teachers who did hold space for me to, you know, ask questions about evolution and about inclusion of people of other faiths, you know, about all of these things that have plagued me. And i kind of organize the book around these themes because theyre also themes i saw coming up again. And again, in these in these online spaces where i found a lot of people would talk like, for example, you were a page, you were page when you were in high school. And that kind of opened the door to some questions that you were not expected like for. Exactly. They were you like, because i didnt realize this this is actually relieving to know that the senate pages actually do go to school. You sound like really early in the morning you would you could sympathize. Well i do sympathize although slackers they get there at 530 but how they taught like you know evolution was