Be here to celebrate. Rachel il swarns for the 272 the families who were enslaved and sold to build the American Catholic church. In 1838, a group of americas most prominent catholic priests sold 272 enslaved people to save their largest mission project, which is now georgetown university. In this groundbreaking account, professor swarns follows one family through nearly two centuries of indentured servitude and enslavement to uncover the harrowing origin story of the Catholic Church in the United States. Rachel swarns is a journalist, author and associate professor of journalism at New York University who writes about race and Race Relations as a contributing writer for the New York Times. Her articles about georgetown universitys roots in slavery touched off a National Conversation and about Americas University days and their ties to this painful period in history. Her work has been recognized, raised and supported by the national endowment, the humanities, the four org ford foundation, the Leon Levy Center for biography, the Biographers International organized nation, among others. As a correspondent for the times swarns reported from russia, cuba, guatemala and Southern Africa and covered immigration and president ial politics and Michelle Obama in her role in. The obama white house. She is the author of american tapestry the story of the black, white and multiroom racial ancestors of Michelle Obama and the coauthor of unseen, unpublished black history. The New York Times photo archives. Swarns will be joined in conversation session today with michel martin, the host of morning edition. Previously, she was the weekend host of all Things Considered and host of the consider this saturday podcast, where she drew on her deep reporting and interviewing experience to dig into the weeks news. She has spent more than 25 years as a journalist and has been honored by numerous organizations. And so now please join me in welcoming to politics and prose. Rachel ellsworth burns and michel martin, who. Friendly amendment, a host of morning edition sorry. Thank you. Friendly amendment. A host of morning edition there are four of us. Do not get me in trouble when i go back to work on monday. Welcome and welcome home, neighbor. Its nice to have you back in back in d. C. Quite a journey. You know, when. Well, how many of you read her original New York Times piece in 2016 . I know its been a while. Do you remember . Okay. So do you ever wonder when somebody write. So its particularly a deeply reported article and then a book comes out if theres more to say, do you ever like . Is there really more to say . I can assert that there is. And i was wondering why you understood it or when you understood that there was so much more to say. What was it after the first piece which was so impactful and so deeply reported and so shocking to some that made you understand that there was much more to say . Well, its so cool to be sitting alongside you and to see you for so many years. So i think it might be useful to talk a little bit about how i even came to this story and it started in 2015. Students were protesting at georgetown. They were concerned about two buildings that carry the names of two of the priests who happened to be early president s who had orchestrated this sale. And the administration changed the names that the administration had been considering, changing the names even before that. But the the protest caught the eye of a georgetown alum, a ceo of a tech company in cambridge, who said, okay, protest about the buildings, about this history, change the names. But the 272, like what happened to them. And so he reached out to a faculty member at georgetown, as i mentioned, georgetown had already been looking into this and trying to think about its own history and slavery and how to wrestle with it. And he said, okay, well, what happened to their descendants . And he was told they all died. And he said they all died like nearly 300 people. They all died. No descendants. And that seemed implausible to him. There were certainly other people in the working group at georgetown who thought there were descendants. But this guy said there werent. And so this guy, richard cellini, said to himself, that makes up no sense. And richard was someone hes a white guy, ceo of a tech company, a republican guy who had not been involved in Racial Justice issues in any way before, but he loved georgetown. And he said, you know, like, i think we kind of oh, you, you know, something to these people. We the existence is connected to these people. And so he hired a team of genealogists who started digging and trying to find descendants. And then he reached out to a colleague of mine at the times who was on the business side. Business reporter rather and said, hey you know, i think i got an exclusive for the times about a slave sale in the 1830 that benefited georgetown. And she was kind of like, okay, interesting. Is that even a story . And so it is my great, Great Fortune that she didnt just delete the email. I mean, you have to remember, this was before the 1619 project. You know, this kind of reporting wasnt tanahashi coates had done his case for reparations, but it wasnt the kind of reporting that we typically do. But she remembered that there was someone on the staff who had might have a sense of this and she remembered the book i had done about Michelle Obamas ancestors tracing her enslaved back to the 1800s. So she forwarded the email to me and i knew immediately i knew it was a story. My reporting. Michelle obamas ancestors had allowed me to explore how slavery shaped American Families and. I thought that this would be the next step to look at how slavery shaped one of our elite institutions. So but what i didnt know was, you know, who who were the 272. And thats thats what i needed to find out what i wanted to find out. Can i just tell you, i, i, i, i was so moved by every aspect of that story, which is i didnt understand the back story until i read the book that think about this. Lets, can we just marinate in that for a minute. This white guy who had not thought very much about slavery or enslavement didnt have any connection to it and understands that an institution that he cares deeply is deeply enmeshed in it, and he digs into his pocket, does some work, and then reaches out to you and your colleague reaches out to you and. There we have it. And i just think that, you know, its first of all, thats reporting one on one, folks. For those of you who really do just what i always tell my interns, answer the mail, please, please, please, please dont read your email. Please do read your email and i would say ask like a very fundamental question, which was just who were and what were their names, you know, this is the quote from a book you said this is not a disembodied group of people who are nameless and faceless. These are real people with real names and real descendants. And thats what that was his quote thats what he thats what he said. What he felt. In fact in fact, let us just ask if there are any among us today who are directly connected to this story, will you show yourself so can the descendants . Yeah. Can you stand can we welcome you and honor you. Thank you for being here. I thank you for being here. What did you she just said, say what you just said to. Were still here. My family in Southern Illinois right . Yeah. And we are glad youre still here. Thank you for being here. Thank you for allowing your story to rise. Your article focused on georgetown. In the book, it focuses on the bigger story of the role of slavery in the building of the American Catholic church. As briefly as you can. What was it . Why was so important, so, you know, i started again by looking at this sale, and i think it would be helpful to tell. Just a quick story that will make you understand how i got from the sale to the larger picture. And to do that, i just want to tell a story which i tell a lot. But i think as a journalist, im not a historian. I often think about when youre writing about slavery, being aware that there are a lot of folks who are going to say, oh, no, no, thank, you know, turn the page, turn your head and so how do you bring that story to people . How do you get people to hear . And the way i feel is the best way to get people to hear is to tell a story thats compelling, to introduce families that people might want to read about. So when i talk about the 272 and how i got to georgetown and then the Catholic Church, i like to bring people back to november of 1838 to give you a sense of what it was like for these people. And, you know, in 1838, these folks were brought from Southern Maryland to alexandria, virginia. And if you had been there, would have seen them scores of people being loaded on to a ship forcibly loaded elderly people, parents, children, babies, witnesses describe people falling to their knees, weeping, begging for mercy. And these were people who were being torn from all the people they loved and the world that they knew, being being shipped, you know, down south. They were owned by the nations most powerful jesuit priests. As you heard before, who happened to be among the slave holders in maryland. And they were selling these folks when times got hard, as people did, because they were their most prized assets and they wanted to save this school. And as i started digging and realizing, okay, wow, hey, i happened to be black and catholic, had no idea that priests were involved in the slave trade, no idea that slavery helped to save, you know, this institution. I started looking at the priests and looking at this history and what i learned was it wasnt just georgetown, the jesuits built the early Catholic Church, first in the british colony. And then in early america. And these priests who relied on slave labor and slave sales built, you know, the first archdiocese, the first cathedral, all early convents priests who operated plantations and sold people built the first catholic seminary. So the underpinnings of the church were built by priests who were deeply, deeply involved in slavery. You write in the book, without the enslaved the Catholic Church in the United States as we know it today would not exist. Thats right. One of the things that also struck me about the book is that you describe how oppression led oppression the entire how interweave the various forms of oppression have been and i found that very, very interesting. And of course, upsetting. But could you talk a little bit about the Catholic Church and its attitude toward Indigenous People and how the attitude toward Indigenous People and a kind of a a transformation of its attitude toward Indigenous People kind of led to its accept sense of the enslavement of people of african descent, which i found really fascinating. One of the things thats really fascinating about the catholic and its we should be very clear that its not just the Catholic Church, right . Its protestant churches to you know, its slaverys foundational for a lot of things. But the catholic priests, you know, there were white people who viewed black people as animals. A purely catholic said, okay, no, we think they have souls and we want to nurture their souls, but were okay about enslaving them and selling their bodies. And people say how is that possible . And what did rome have to say . And thats what michel is getting at. And its slavery is an ancient practice, as we know. Its in the bible. The jesuits often pointed to it. Saint paul talking about the response abilities of slaves and masters. When europeans went into africa and then into the americas, they enslaved Indigenous People initially and there were protests by priests in rome, said, okay, we wont do that. But about but there was still this insatiable need for labor. And so africans filled that gap and the church rome remained silent about africans, too. And if you also want to look at you know, kind of oppression leading to oppression, you know, the priests who came to maryland came from england where they were persecuted, catholics were persecuted. And maryland was a refuge for for catholics. But in trying to embed themselves and to be recognized as establishments of society, slavery was part of establishment society. Thats thats what it was. And and they became part of that. Its important to know, though, that there were always voices who raised questions. The priests. There were priests. All along the way who had concerns about it. And also one of the other things that i found fascinating about the book is how at times when catholics were persecuted, not well, persecuted, done rapture, if thats the right word, but marginalized within the politics of maryland they turned to because protestants wouldnt work for them once again they turned to africans in order to save their properties and their their kind of livelihoods and you share that you are also you identify as catholic from birth assume yeah cradle catholic. So do you do you mind if i ask how this recording how did it influence your kind of faith walk do did it challenge your faith walk in any way so you know i think its interesting i was doing this work im catholic im a practicing and you know im going through these records and some of these records are ive been doing this kind of research a long time. But, you know, bracing records, getting used to seeing if you were if you were writing about enslaved people, you were writing about people who are viewed as property. So thats what youre looking for. Youre looking for tax here. Youre looking for property. You see these estate records that list, you know, the coffee tables, the tablecloths the pigs, the dishes and the list of the human beings. So thats sobering. And then im going to mass right here. So but, you know, i think what has been interesting to me is the families themselves and the experience of the families themselves. I tell the story of one family in particular, the mahoney family and and the matriarch of that family, a woman by the name of angie arrives in the 1600s. Not just a few decades after the first priests arrive. And shes a free person. Shes an indentured servant whose freedom stolen. Shes forced into slavery by catholic gentry. But she holds on to the one thing that she has, which is her story. And she tells who will listen that she should have been free and that her her liberty was stolen. And she tells her children that her grandchildren that that story has passed on. People in her family, her descendants resist. Some of them are, one or two of them killed and overseer and executed. They go to court. They sue the jesuits, some of them, when their freedom that way, some of them dont Harry Mahoney saves the church his wealth in the war of 1812 and garners a pledge from the jesuits that his he neither he nor his family will ever be sold. And thats a pledge thats broken in 1838. So. At times the priests were quiet and black people to go to mass to participate in the sacraments. There were penalties for not doing that. There is an instance where of two families, a priest decided that two families who had engaged in fidelity be punished. He sold their children. And so after the civil war, what did families do . You can ask, you know, would you stay catholic after your year . The priest said split up your family and so folks interestingly you know people a number of people stayed a number of people left thousands left because. The church remained segregated afterwards. But members of this mahony family, many of them stayed not only they stay, but they became lay leaders. Some of them became religious leaders, and they worked to make the church true to its ideals of being a universal church. They set up black parish is to joined, became nuns and ran schools for black children. Some of their descendants are catholic to this day. And those record its actually those sacramental records have been really important to genealogy and to myself in terms of tracking these families and you know and these descendants who are among us many of them still catholic have been in the forefront of pressing the church. And george to recognize this history. I look those folks and in a crazy way, you know, i find inspiration there. I see folks who said to themselves, church does not belong to the sinful men who are in it. This church, they dont control god. They dont control, you know, the son, the holy spirit, none of that. And and it was their church. And they decided to make it that. And to me, that inspires me. So im still going. One, i want to remind you that this is a conversation that we cannot participate in. Theres only sadly theres one mic there. And i hate to make this a fitness, but my recommendation would be that were going to to questions from you in just a minute. Two. So if you have one that you want to share if you would perhaps begin making your way to the microphone and what youve mentioned that youre not an historian, but, you know, historians and journalists are basically in conversation each other. And id like to ask, you know, we call it the first draft of history. And you all that i dont i dont know what the appropriate digital term would be. The personal history. Im not sure what the right is that even first. You know, not even using that word of. But what was the most i dont know as a this wasnt really how you got started in journalism, right . You get started in journalism kind of chronicle whats around you right now, not what happened. 304 hundred years ago. So i was just interested in whether was there any part of yourself that you had to to sort of transform from in order to do this work or you had to change your practice in some way or there was a lot of learning involved. I realized that there was so much about American History, even as a reasonab