Transcripts For CSPAN3 State 20240703

Next a look at waste, fraud, and abuse in the federal Welfare Program temporary assistance for needy families. It provides cash assistance and other services to lowincome families with a focus on getting recipients back to work. Though it is suddenly find it is executed by the states. The house ways and means a subcommittee hearing is about two hours. [inaudible conversations] the committee will come to order. Welcome to our subcommittee hearing. For the working welfare subcommittee. Where is all aware for money going from reclaiming tanf not assistance dollars to lift americans out of poverty. My name is downloaded and arrives in illinois 16th district of illinois. Much of central and northwest parts of the state. Recently republicans were able to secure a major victory with the fiscal responsibility act, which strengthen, which strengthen work requirements in the direct cash assistance portion of the temporary assistance for needy families program. Those changes followed our hearing in march in this room highlighting loopholes in the current law that allowed states to game gain the work partn rate. This hearing will take the next debt by focusing on the other side of tanf which is not Assistance Spending. Not assistance funding constitutes the majority of the tanf block grant, nearly 78 of combined federal and state spending. This is spending that is not basic assistant or direct checks to welfare recipients. Concerns have emerged that the not assistance part of tanf likes guardrails and instead focus on helping people move from welfare to work. National headlines fueled by a massive investment scandal in mississippi have drawn increased scrutiny about tanf, leading people to ask where is all the welfare money going . In june republican nibs of the ways and Means Committee sent a letter to hhs asking the agency about the response to mississippi and efforts to safeguard federal funds in other states. In response hhs outlined a number of statutory limitations that constrain their ability to conduct oversight and indicated a willingness to work with the committee to improve the tanf program. Ive heard from my colleagues on both sides of the aisle who have expressed frustration on this point. In fact, during our last tearing my friend from wisconsin ms. Moore shared her concern about how states are using tanf money to comment about question we use the funds in wisconsin for luxury apartments. I agree with ms. Moore and many others. Current tanf law lacks basic financial safeguards included in most other federal programs making it easy for states to divert funds and increasing the risk of fraud and abuse. Here are some of the examples. First, current law permits states to use federal grants end quote any manner that is reasonably calculated unquote to achieve one of tanis four four purposes which is to provide assistance to needy families, independence of needy parents on independence, reduce out of luck pregnancies and promote the formation of two parent families. These are worthy goals but its rare for allowable spending in a federal program to be solely defined by vaguely written purposes. Second, unlike most federal programs the tanf statute does not put limits on administrator pekoske application deadlines for spending funds. As a result Program Management is one of the four largest expenditure categories. Further, with the deadline to spend tanf dollars many states have built up larger reserves instead of spinning him on families who need them. Third, tanf is not subject to the payment integrity information act, even though the office of management and budget identified tanf as a susceptible program, hsas never reported an improper payment rate estimate. Finally, tanf law allows states to spend funds on a wide variety of social Services Like social welfare and childcare. But with none of the federal rules that normally apply. This has resulted in tanf been spent on programs that are not track for outcomes for the cold services being paid for with federal tax dollars. All of this adds up to evolvable program that makes it possible for fraud and abuse to occur like what happened in the state of mississippi. One of her Witnesses Today mr. Shad white is first and knowledge of mississippi case and is due to pellagra conditions on how be avoided in other states in the future. Today will also hear from witnesses examples of how states have been able to use tanf not Assistance Funds to strategically support initiatives that do effectively move individuals from welfare to work. Some states have also built their Strong Financial controls and audit practices which can be remedied, can be used in other states. Chose to stash tens of millions of dollars rather than help poor families. Republicans insisted on imposing crushing administered burdens designed to kick families off direct cash assistance under the guise of accountability. Even the republican witnesses recommended lessening work requirements and restrictions on education and training, the gop debt limit provisions double down on harsh work requirements. These republican driven policies trapped families in poverty by rejecting them altogether. She families into meager child only tanf are forcing them into Poverty Level jobs rather than building economic security. Republicans insisted on tanf being a block grant that gave states wide latitude to Fund Activities that do not help poor parents. Incredibly, unlike any other law, republicans insisted on a statutory prohibition on federal oversight that limits transparency, fraud detection, and enforcement. When mississippi advocates asked the subcommittee for help years ago to get the Trump Administration to examine how the state was using tanf, we had to direct them to state officials to investigate this issue due to this prohibition on enforcement. Unfortunately, even after the fraud revelation advocates still cannot get answers about how tanf is used locally. I hope that our witness state audit rate will help remedy that lack of transparency. It is also deeply troubling that less than 24 hours after the tanf fraud was announced, mississippi lawmakers at the urging of state auditor white advanced a bill to allow him to review the tax returns of tanf cash recipients, a requirement that was not imposed to my knowledge on the many tanf subcontractors and businesses. So let us be clear. Tanf is working exactly as the republican tanf system was designed. Democrats absolutely think tanf needs a fundamental overhaul, but any reform should start with improving family stability by reducing burdensome requirements and providing sufficient access to financial support, child care, education, and Career Pathways to help families strive. Families need stability before parents can be reliable workers, and reliable workers need quality jobs to escape poverty. Predictable Financial Assistance is central to stability for parents to hold selfsustaining jobs. We saw during the pandemic that reliable Financial Assistance via the Child Tax Credit help cut Child Poverty by 40 . Further, a recent report by chapin hall details how state policies that increase access to tanf and cash assistance are associated with a decreased child maltreatment. For example, a 100 increase in tanf cash benefits is associated with reduction in maternal selfreported physical child maltreatment. In contrast for families receiving tanf who experience maternal hardship such as difficult in the basic needs, they are three times more likely to experience a neglect, investigation, and four times more likely to experience a physical abuse investigation. Tanf benefits in most states remain at their lowest value since the program started in 1996. 1996. Yet, Research Shows that families with children under the age of five receiving an extra 3000 per year boost childrens adult earnings by 17 . So investing in cash assistance and now would help lift children out of poverty both now and in the future. A failure of tanf false disproportional on children of color whose families experience greater barriers to economic stability. Black, American Indian and alaskan native, asian and latino children experience higher poverty rates than white children. Yet, 48 of black children live in states with the benefits about below 20 of the federal Poverty Level, compared to only 35 of white children. I served on this committee back when there was a good faith bipartisan effort to reform tanf. Now those efforts have been repeatedly, repeated by extremists demanding harsher work requirements, limiting states and using not assistance dollars would do nothing to let americans out of poverty. If we do nothing to help states serve low income families by providing cash assistance and work supports while also removing the ineffective work requirements. I thank you, mr. Chairman, and yield back. Thank you mr. Davis. Its my pleasure now to yield to the full chairman of the ways and Means Committee, mr. Jason smith. Thank you, chairman lahood and Ranking Member davis for holding this hearing about how congress can strengthen the nondirect assistance side of the temporary assistance for needy families, or tanf. To lift more americans out of poverty and protect the taxpayers who fund the program. I would also like to give a special welcome to one of her Witnesses Today, mr. Roberts knodell, the director of the department of social services in my home state. Hes a native of gods country, the best Congressional District in the entire nation, missouris eighth, which happens to be my district. And also graduate of Southeast Missouri state. Hes a fighting redhawk. We are glad youre here, robert. Robert combines his love of missouri with a career thats dedicated to service, focusing on improving education and social services. Robert, thank you so much again for being here. Its an honor to have you. In hearings all around the country, we have heard how Small Businesses are being impacted by the labor shortage. The fiscal responsibility act, it delivered a major win for families and Small Businesses by strengthening work requirements in the tanf program. Also put an end to attempts by states to exploit loopholes around the work Participation Rate and forcing to measure outcomes that matter. Like how many recipients get a job. This was a major step toward restoring the program to its core mission. Acting as a bridge out of poverty. We have more work to do though. Almost eight in every ten dollars in this program are spent on something other than direct checks to families. Tanf was meant to help people get a job, but we need asic financial guardrails to guarantee taxpayer money is not wasted. That lack of accountability has opened the door for states to treat tanf nonpersistent funds like a slush fund in some cases states use the funds to fill budget gaps for unrelated purposes here and others these funds pay for social programs that the federal government already pays for but avoids federal rules on how states can use that money, creating even more duplication and overlap. In the worse cases the lack of controls and accountability has led to write fraud and abuse it for example, in mississippi 77 million and not assistance tanf dollars was misspent through waste, fraud, and abuse. To put this in perspective, mississippi receives 86 million in tanf annually, and has the highest rate of Child Poverty in the entire country. Money that should have gone towards of the vulnerable with instead toward building volleyball courts. Every ways and means republican has asked secretary becerra shs has taken any action to correct this situation. On its current path, tanf not assistance is saving beneficiaries who need economic security, and is also failing taxpayers whose money should be spent intentionally and strategically to support work. The basic problem at hand is the lack of accountability. More money tomorrow does not solve the problem of misspending money today. Thank you to each of our witnesses for testifying today about how to ensure tanf fulfills its mission of lifting people out of poverty through work. Yield back, mr. Chairman. Thank you, chairman smith. We are pleased to have our witnesses are today and we have a tremendous amount of experience here today with all of you and so want to thank you for being here today. I will now introduce them. Mr. Clarence carter, ill start for my left to right, is a commissioner of the Tennessee Department of Human Services. Mr. Shad white is state auditor for the state of mississippi. Mr. Roberts knodell is the director of the Missouri Department of social services. Ms. Kristi putnam is a secretary of the Arkansas Department of Human Services and doctor Aisha Nyandoro is the ceo of Supreme Court opportunities in jackson, mississippi. Welcome to you all. Mr. Carter i will never recognize you for five minutes to deliver your opening statement. Chairman lahood, Ranking Member davis and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify a potential reforms to the tanf program specifically, and on a broader statement in general. My name is Clarence Carter and i currently serve as commissioner of the Tennessee Department of Human Services in the administration of governor building. Tendency of my last stop in a 32 year career in the administration of Public Safety net programs and agencies at the federal, state and local levels of government. During that career ive had the blessing and good fortune of serving two president s, four governors and the mayor in this my life purpose and passion. My career predates the welfare reform of 1996. I harken back to the excitement and anticipation of that era at that time i was serving as virginias commission of the department of social services. I recall a conversation i had with one of our consumers regarding her experience with the new program. She said to me, when they told i would have to, would have to work, i was scared. She had not been employed since the birth of her first child 15 years prior, and as such had serious concerns about her ability successfully rejoin the workforce. She recounted how her case manager believed in her and assisted her in finding a a j. She went on to say, do you know what i did with my first paycheck . I took my kids out for pizza. With tears streaming down her face, finally she said with pride, mr. Carter, at the beginning i was afraid but now i know i will never be unwell for again does i know i can do this. I share this reflection because it is that their inspiration and hope and vision that tries me every day in work. Mere subsistence is not enough. Individuals need help and the ability to determine their own destiny. Our system of public support should be about freeing people to act in their own best interest, not making the boars of an everexpanding and complex public assistance system. The tanf program was built on two fundamental principles, work for receipt of benefits and time limits. While those twin pillars are as important today as they were 277 years ago, we have fallen far short of the lofty goals in envisioned at the signing of the legislation. In the Previous Administration i served as director of the office of family assistance, the Program Office within hhs task with administering tanf program. Upon arrival in 2017 we saw there was in excess of 5 billion in unexpended tanf funds nationwide. We sent a letter encouraging states to use unexpended balances to demonstrate innovations in the program. Unfortunately, our encouragement fell flat. States needed more than encouragement from the federal government. They needed a mechanism and additional funding to do so. It was with that understanding that guided us in crafting the opportunity and economic mobility demonstrations which were included as part of the president s budget in fiscal year 20, fiscal year 21, and have included those budget proposals with my written testimony. Little did i know that the next stop in my professional journey would afford me the opportunity to put into practice when i had encouraged at the federal level. But the unexpended tanf monies nationwide, tennessee had the largest amount in excess of 700 million. This brings us to what we are doing with the tanf and governor lees administration. In conjunction with our department of Human Services, state legislature and governor crafted the tanf opportunity act. This legislation was designed to serve families in need and mandate, and mandated a force spinning mechanism. Perhaps most impactful for this committee this legislation also authorized seven largescale demonstrations aimed at helping families overcome the challenges they face. The objective of these threeyear demonstration is to test the unique Community Design collaborative models for building the economic, social and development of capacity of tanf recipients. Their results will provide valuable insights into how best to refine overall tanf model. Another important component of this legislation is its emphasis on evaluation and finding out what works. To accomplish this we engaged in an evaluation from to design random controlled trials for each of the seven demonstrations. The Gold Standard in scientific evaluation. In closing, we find herself in an important crossroads in the history of our nation safety net. The work of the subcommittee and positive impact the lives of millions of americans. I believe in the interventions that taken in tennessee are for a framework that can launch the next generation of safety net reform. I want to thank you again for the opportunity to share this testimony, and i applaud your courage to embark upon this necessary journey. I can state unequivocally that under the leadership of governor bill lee, tennessee is dedicated to partnering with you in this effort. Thank you, commissioner carter. Now turn to auditor dwight. He recognized for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman, Ranking Member davis or its owner to be with you. My new state Auditor Shad White come on the 42nd state auditor of mississippi. I would get about 140 cpas, career investigators, attorneys and support staff, and three years ago we uncovered was still the largest public fraud scheme in history of mississippi and it was fueled almost entirely by tanf dollars. What i thought it would do is tell you a little bit about how that case came about and then have some thoughts and recommendations on policy that might be implemented to prevent what was i mississippi from happening in other places that i would be happy to get him to get in the summer of case started when we receive a whistleblower tip that suggested there may be a kickback between the head of the department of Human Services in mississippi, that the agency that handles tanf, and a vendor to dhs, our department of Human Services. I then ordered an investigation by our career investigators and simultaneously told our auditors who were doing our single audit at the time that the audit that we do for you, the federal government, to describe the federal funds are spent to look at most going on with tanf dollars in the state of mississippi. We audited and investigated for about six, seven months and at the end of that time we determine that north of 90 million of both tanf funds and other welfare funds had been misspent in the state and also determined that there were likely multiple fraud schemes that had gone on. So at that point we knew that some of the organizations, one nonprofit in particular that was receiving funds and misspending in was likely to also get an additional grant pics we had act quickly and auditors all that i took what we have local prosecutor in hinds county. He acted quickly and it died six individuals successfully cutting off the flow of funds and stopping the misspending. I was in february of 2020. We also conclude our single audit a few months later and in that single audit what we found was multiple instances of misspent tanf funds outside of the fraud cases. So ill catch up a bit to where we are today. Six individuals have pleaded guilty to either state or federal charges. Those charges range from money laundering, fraud, rico charges. In that case that criminal case is still ongoing so i will be limited in what i can say about the criminal case right now. My office has turned over everything that we have two the fbi and the fbi and federal prosecutors at the Department Justice have asked to take the leading role in indicting and investigating anyone who is new beyond the original six people that we investigated. We agreed to that arrangement and weve been assisting them since then. That was about three years ago. As far as the other misspent money goes, the state is now suing multiple individuals to get some of that money back. I will tell you an example of misspent funds in mississippi but i give you a bit of the flavor of what we found in our single audit. We found that tanf dollars had gone to pay for advertisements at outofstate college bowl games. We found that tanf money had gone to pay for advertised at ncaa bracket games outside of mississippi. We found tanf dollars ago to pay celebrities and athletes in mississippi with little or no work product required. We found that one nonprofit in particular, a nonprofit run by nancy and zack knew, thats a mother and son duo come have received tens of millions of dollars of tanf money and the misspent much of that money, some of it to the personal benefit. So mr. New rebate and loan from his 401 k program with tanf dollars. They paid for house for me as a new using government money. They paid for cars for themselves. They paid for Technology Like ipads. This list goes on and on and on. If you would like to see the fullness of what we uncovered i would suggest that you read our single audit from 2020 or the two years after that and that details some of those findings. What i would like to say man is thank you to all of you for inviting all of us here and for looking into this, because my hope is that the country can learn from mississippis experience so that what we saw, the fraud was on mississippi, doesnt happen in other states. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, Ranking Member davis. Thank you mr. Auditor. We will next turn to direct or no deal from the state of missouri. Youre back to thank you. Thanks to chairman smith and thank you, chairman lahood and Ranking Member davis, members of the committee. Im honored to serve in the gubernatorial appointive position as director of hartman Street Department of social services and on behalf of our 5700 Hardworking Team members and the over 2 million missourians that our department serves everyday. We appreciate the opportunity. Missouri is fortunate to can have an Unemployment Rate of 2. 5 , among the lowest of any state. However, we have experienced a steady decline in a labor force Participation Rate since the 1990s. While we rank above the National Average, our current rate as of may of this year is 63. 4 which is the lowest during any noncovered pandemic month since 1985. Like most states missouris population is aging with more and more citizens approaching retirement and especially in rural kennedys and inner cities are population is not growing. This creates a labor force challenges in committees looking to staff health care, nursing facilities, provide schoolbus drivers, higher childcare workers and fill other critical jobs that make cities and towns great places to call home. Tanf in missouri if it achieves its full potential dovetails very well with governor mike parsons paramount priority of Workforce Development. Licking citizens out of poverty by equipping them with the skills, education and unattainable expectations to become selfsufficient and family supporting does wonders to strengthen families, improve communities and faith and a data go tax dollars making the American Dream more attainable. Thats what were doing in missouri with our tanf block grant. More than ever we are looking for ways to meaningfully assess our ablebodied neighbors who encounter barriers to selfsufficiency and do face that unfortunate lifetime of dependency on public assistance to survive otherwise. The citizen think the American Dream and the American Dream needs them. Our communities are counting on us both through this committee and throughout our states to lift up families to be full participants as creators and consumers so that we can function and thrive in a way that fulfills our social contract. Our tanf block grants if i did and administered with the Necessary Balance of flexibility and strict accountability can deliver on that promise. Missouri serves hundreds of thousands of citizens to our block Grant Programs providing the necessary skills, training, mentoring, nutrition and removal of barriers to ensure a successful path to employment. We all know the difference between somebody who starts a job that they are not prepared for as a postal sorting a job that they are well equipped and trained to succeeding. The former often returned to public assistance programs in short order, and the latter ds not. Missouri in this tanf dollars into the jobs are american graduates, or jagged program them boasting a 90 graduation rate, with 86 of graduates transition to either college, a job, or military service. We operate four excel cities which are dull high schools with four satellite facility offering Free High School education with lexical schedules and Life Coaching within our state. 83 of graduates end up employed, and another 10 enroll in college or an advanced skills training. One shining example of what our tanf dollars are doing when probably expand is denise hayes. With the onset of the covid pandemic she was at a crossroads. After eight years of working at a local Nursing Center she was laid off and when Public Schools transition to remote education, she had a childcare barrier to consider. While staying home with her children she attempted to find parttime employment, but opportunities were scarce due to her remote and rural location. After 18 months of unemployment and what your children returned to in person schooling denise applied and was approved for temperate assistance benefits. As a participant she qualified for the missouri work assistance, or nwa program. Having present for any nursing facility, she had some knowledge of the medical field and was interested in a Phlebotomy Program at a local community college. Mwa not only help pay for Training Program but they were also able to help with the gas expense that she faced a 120mile roundtrip in order to attend those classes. When denise got to the point in a program that she needed scrubs to wear, mwa was able to help cover this expense. Denise riso begin work at the river oaks nursing home in emma scott county in missouri who till and is preparing to take her state test for certification. Certification. After which she has plans to apply for those better jobs. As a cpt shall have more stable and higherpaying job opportunities. Denise is grateful for the Financial Assistance that mwa provided during her journey. I will caution this committee that as pandemic relief dollars go away, and if and when state tax revenues tighten or decline, state agencies will be under increasing pressure to color outside the lines and push boundaries when it comes to tanf spinco Program Integrity measures for both state and federal levels will be more important than ever and we urge you to consider strategically enhancing and leveraging tanf dollars within the four corners of the program to provide benefits, and we encourage you to consider enhanced Program Integrity measures. To make clear, not only to states but our Partner Agencies of what appropriate and inappropriate uses of tanf dollars are. Thank you for the opportunity. Thank you, director. We will next turn to secretary steve button of arkansas. You are regasify been. Thank you, mr. Chair, chairman smith, chairman lahood, Ranking Member davis. Im incredibly grateful for the up to do speak to this committee. Im Kristi Putnam the second of Arkansas Department of Human Services. My whole lifes work has provided me perspective as a state and federal grant manager, state and federal grant recipient, and up for us to get a persistent in tanf and of the workforce programs as a partner and the potential benefits secret. I couldve been a tanf recipient at some point in my life when i was a single mother. I now have experienced in several states working with the very program i believe to be leveraged to promote thriving families and communities. Thanks to arkansas governor Sarah Huckabee stands testament at a amazing team at the department of Human Services we now have an opportunity to completely revisit how tanf is being used in arkansas to support and strengthen families and communities. We are taking a holistic approach to our tanf work by focusing a family centered practices, community empowerment, and will recall the abc Workforce Development concept of aapa a job, then a better job, then a career. Specifically, steps weve undertaken include integrating our tanf Case Management workforce with our Human Services eligibility specialist to family and Youth Support can access tanf workforce supports conferred assistance come childcare and helped her in one location. This is family centric. Mobilizing the same services to serve communities and families for whom transportation is an issue, this is also family centric. Meeting with employers, Community Organizations can philanthropic entities and Human Services staff to determine family needs, implement of duties, gaps in services and a best to address. This is committee and power and his results driven. Further on february 9 of this you governor sanders established the arkansas workforce captain and chief workforce officer in executive order 23 dash 16. The arc arc is a workforce cabinet is comprised of all sick state agencies that provide or chordae career and Technical Education and Workforce Development. That by the chief workforce officer read the second is a visa six cabinets meet monthly along with the sector transformation and shared services to prepare and recommend a data driven strategic bundle ensure a talent and outcome driven education and workforce system. These will fit into the governors three priorities of education, Public Safety and Economic Development and tax cuts. We will do this through strategic cross cabinet collaboration working to align resource at how people first find a job, then a better job, and finally a career. A job entry level as a start but not the way to sustain a household. A better job us next level to provide 13 command experience come at a career in which people contribute and feel fulfilled in giving back is the goal. Meaningful work encourages individuals and families to overcome hardships, increases intergenerational economic mobility and supports better physical and mental health. Tanf will be an important tool for the workforce cabinet in our efforts to increase arkansas is workforce Participation Rates and family economic and decrease dependency on public assistance. The Arkansas Legislature was also instrumental in changing how we use our tanf dollars i passing legislation in 2023 session to transfer the program from the division of Workforce Services to the department of Human Services. Legislative leadership recognize in groups to promote family economic stability and maximize the effectiveness of Workforce Department funding and initiatives dhs could offer coordinated Services Including prevention and Family Preservation Services that holistically meet the four purposes of tanf and provide assistance in removing barriers to work. With its transfer to dhs we plan to integrate tanf interlocutors reconciliation of cash draws to expenditures and grant reporting processes with existing finance and accounting unit that oversees draws for all other federally funded assistance programs to arkansas is looking to be transformative while improving accountability for ten expenditures and outcomes particularly of noncash assistance initiative. To this end i3 recommendations for this committee around tanf policy. First, continue to support states that the lease to contract with private faithbased and Community Organizations if appropriate oversight is demonstrated. Second, consider allowing states to reinstate High Performance bonuses with payments not to the states for highperformance but to employers and families the successfully move their employees and themselves off of welfare. Third, review definitions and requirements for tanf that conflict with or are duplicative of other benefits programs and seek to consolidate such policy to be consistent across all programs. Our children and found to not come to us in pieces. We need to stop planning and budgeting for them as if he did in closing i like to my sincere appreciation again to ways and means chairman smith, working well for subcommittee chairman lahood, Ranking Member davis, and all of the members of the committee. I look forward to your leadership on tanf policies that allow us and the state to be transformative at arkansas stands ready to work in partnership with the families and communities we serve. Thank you. Thank you, secretary putnam. We were now recognize doctor Aisha Nyandoro. He recognized for five minutes. Thank you, chairman lahood, Ranking Member davis, and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to present testimony today on the urgent matter of Effective Solutions to let families out of poverty. To begin i would like to note all the sitting here share one common goal, to ensure that federal funding has the strongest possible impact on ending the devastation of poverty in america. To date many arguments on this issue a focus on imposing more restrictions on recipients to achieve this which has proven to only intensified the inefficiencies present in the current policy. In effect where blaming the family for the poverty rather than interrogating the policies that allow these inadequacies to occur. I lease Supreme Court operatives which lead to families living in federally subsidized affording housing adjustment severe and submit abuse of a tip or needy families. Most of black women, mothers working fulltime, meaning over time but still living on poverty. On average incomes would work with less make than 13,000 annually to the population to work with is that a publisher which tanf population which tanf was designed to sport. I know of only one person out of the thousand that work with extra babysitting tanf. Brandy who has consistently worked while also raising her children, like many lowwage workers she has experience brief breaks of unemployment are going between jobs. When she applied for tanf and give me the state requirement of getting a job within a week, she was forced to be a volunteer at the Mississippi Department of Human Services Office Filing paperwork for less than minimum wage until she found what her caseworker dean adequate employment. But her story is not unique. 90 of Mississippians Mississippians who apply for tanf do not receive it. Families i work with site the barriers to entry including burdensome paperwork, a lack of supportive services, fear of sanctions and inefficient financial support. Sheila is a perfect example of this really. She was working in the Food Service Industry and as a fulltime caregiver for her grandmother. The way she could maintain both responsibilities was to pay for child care for her daughter totaling over 360 a month. The 170 per month she would have received from received from the state program would not even cover the cost of her child care. Officials will claim restrictions are intended to prevent abuse and fraud but they continue to track families can cycle of generational poverty while the actual perpetuated a fraud have been the people in power overseeing the program. If anything can be learned from the tanf scandal in mississippi in which not Assistance Funds went to paying for horse stables rather than helping fund keeping funds in the basic assistance category, to a families pay for the necessities like diapers for babies or food for families living in poverty, is that were focused on the wrong problem. Additional restrictions on recipients are not the answer youre instead of increasing burdens that reduce the efficiency of the program and for the push parents and children into poverty, we shod cut out the bureaucratic red tape. That is exactly what weve been doing for the last five years with the Magnolia Mothers trust him a program that Supreme Court started because so many Government Programs including tanf did not work. Instead of endless applications and heavy restrictions, the Magnolia Mothers trust offers 1000 a month in cash assistance to moms in poverty for one year without restrictions. In addition to cash support, our mantra to oneonone support from train staff to help them identify their goals and support them along the way. What weve learned is that this money allows families to thrive. Yes, they spend it on basic needs such as childcare, gracious and utility bills that it allows him to plan for the future like eboni who started her own business as a salon owner. Shes that only an entrepreneur which is also employing others, or antoinette who just graduated with a degree in Early Childhood education and is underway to a higher paying job. Additionally, recipients are able to better provide for their children who in turn perform better in school. These results are lasting with our Longitudinal Research is showing families continue to reap the benefits of a oneyear Program Years after it ends. In the five years of which we have been running this program we have learned a dignity at a to z that cash without restriction provides allows the family to dream about their future and reach toward it. Lets reimagine whats possible with tanf, as we done with the Magnolia Mothers trust that provides cash assistance without work requirements. Because then we can truly enable families to break free from the cycle of poverty and achieve economic security. Thank you for your attention and i look forward to answering any questions you may have. Thank you very much, doctor. Want to thank all of you for your valuable testimony today and the contributions you make to your states and different agencies. We will now proceed to the question and answer session at f todays hearing at begin by recognizing myself. Ill start with you, auditor white. Could you go into this more detail on recommendations you have for us as federal lawmakers as we hear about the scandal in mississippi and try to make sure that doesnt happen again. Specifically, in your testimony you talked about policies related to making sure no one over 200 of poverty receives poverty received not Assistance Funds and limiting the number of exceptions for dollars going to not implement related activity. Certainly. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Just a few recommendations that weve discussed in my office. One has to do with the lack of monitoring. What we saw at dhs in mississippi was large grants are being handed out to nonprofits and then the agency itself was not showing proof that he went out and monitors those nonprofits to ensure the dollars were actually going to benefit the people who are eligible. The office of the state auditor in mississippi, and this predates me, goes back to my predecessor back in 2013, found this happening at our department of Human Services and wrote this in a single audit over and over year after year. Our department of Human Services is not monitoring the said grantee, nonpublic session of the dollars are reaching needy folks. What we ultimately found it was a reason these nonprofits were not being monitored. Ahead of the agency did not want them monitored because he was handing large amounts of funds to the nonprofits and then he and the nonprofit executives were discussing ways to spend those dollars in violation of the law and in violation of tanf regulations. One easy recognition of and make is anytime hhs sees in the single audit that an agency is not monitoring their sub grantee, the nonprofits get something needs to be done about it. And oig agent needs to be sent in. Hhs need to look closely at that nonprofit, level penalties against the agency, monitoring needs to be taken seriously and was not in the state of mississippi. Trent do you mention that 200 , and that i made it one thing we noticed in mississippi was that dollars were going to entities and causes where there was no real proof that anyone participating in an event was needy. So, for example, rootsy dollars going to rent a private softball field and then a Softball Team, a private Softball Team, travel Softball Team called the mississippi bombers would play on a softball field. And when we asked if anybody on the Softball Team needy . The answer was well, no but tanf dollars can go to folks who are not needed. Maybe its okay that this happened, and also the softball field is in jackson and Jackson Metro area is home to tens of needy folks, so that was the justification from dhs. In our opinion that did not comply with the four principles of tanf and did not comply with the intention of tanf in the first place because there was to prove this is anything to advance any of the four principle. My point in making that comment about limiting the access of tanf funds to folks under 200 of the Poverty Level would be to say lets make it clear this program is intended to benefit needy people and give state agency heads the mic spent on folks who are not needy more constraints to focus those dollars on folks are actually the benefit of tanf. And what are you done in mississippi or his estate done to make sure this doesnt happen again . The first few steps were opposite all audit odd st. We performed our single audit. We then reported one fat in the single audit to hhs. Mr. Carter was at hhs at the time it was incredibly responsive when he was there. When we report all business spending to the federal agency. In addition to that as we finished out our single audit i encourage our department of Human Services to hire a private cpa firm to check our work basically. He then went out and hired a private cpa firm from baltimore, maryland, who came in. They also determine tens of millions of dollars of tanf funds have been misspent in violation of tanf. After that happened i use my Legal Authority to demand over 96 million back from the folks who either benefit from the tanf funds for the folks authorize the spending of the tanf funds. After those demands were issued, mississippi is now sued many of those individuals. That case, thats in the case is a lie in state court right now and is currently being litigated. As i said on the other side of this the criminal side of this prosecutors are considering who they would like to charge. Six folks have pleaded guilty, two were been indicted who is not pleaded guilty. Thats what we are in terms of sending the public a message this is not going to be allowed in mississippi and more. Thank you. I will next turned to mr. Knodell picu provided the example where governor parsons in missouri vetoed 7. 9 billion 9 billion in tanf funding including some purposes outside the scope of the program. Could you share more on what role of your state legislature plays in determining how state tanf not Assistance Funds are used . How do you work with state legislator to ensure their proposed project fit within tanf statutory goals . Thank you, mr. Chairman, for the question. We do at the department of social Services Work very close with our General Assembly, and our General Assembly is very aggressive and very eager to strategically use tanf dollars, block grant dollars to meet Community Needs in the district. From time to time we find and with that in missouri overwhelmingly that the projects that they seek funding for, many cases do fit within the four purposes of tanf. Sometimes they dont and that doesnt mean they are bad Public Policy or that initiative. Subdomains they dont fit tanf. So we work very closely with members as they crap the state budget. Because our dollars are appropriate to the General Assembly, after which we go through a procurement contracting, very Close Program monitoring process. But again legislators are eager to use those dollars, and we are very aggressive to steer them away from tanf when it is not an appropriate use. Sometimes those projects will make it to the legislative process and reach the governors desk. For example, we had one project this year, it was a program that weve continued to fund your after year, a very worthy tanf program, to the tune of about 3 billion per year. An additional million was included for a building. We realize that Capital Projects are not allowable tanf expenditures. Therefore, that Million Dollars was lineitem veto to by the governor. That was another project that one of our partners in kansas city was proposing that actually is a project matured and begin to philip would take place predominantly on the kansas side of the kansas city, missouri, regional area. So those dollars were reduced. Our legislature likes to very aggressively spent our tanf dollars. We dont want to put them in the bank. And so we do get very close and sometimes have to reduce if the legislature over appropriates the tanf dollars that we have available, but it is constant communication. We do monitor these projects. In misery we have a very stringent procurement contracting process to make sure that standards are considered, that are followed, that are implemented. And we can monitor as a department, employee contractual monitoring all the way. Thank you, director before turn over to mr. David koch one question. How is your team rebounded arkansas is passed assistance funding grants, passed not assistance funding grants, and what your process for refocusing on outcomes, expediting review and defending some grants and doubling down on other . Thank you for the question, mr. Checker were looking at all of the sub grants have been awarded over the years. There are some some grants that have yielded positive outcomes. Weevil look at continue those that we are not automatically renewing acid in some automatic renewals and pass. We are also looking at the Program Management costs by consolidating the tanf program into department of Human Services, working with the county offices that we have in every county across the state. We are also reducing the administered cost to oversee the program and the financial controls necessary. Thank you for that. Id yield to Ranking Member davis. Thank you again, mr. Chairman. Ms. Nyandoro, im appalled that many states have chosen to hoard roughly 6 billion in tanf, rather than spend these funds as intended to help poor families with children. Could you talk about the disconnect between the ability for these families and individuals who receive tanf benefits in the state of mississippi . Yes, thank you for that question. So i am sitting here and i have this visual of a bandaid trying to go over a geyser, because i feel like thats the conversation were having. Right now as relates to tanf. We are trying, were talking about a bandaid over a geyser. Tanf is woefully inadequate in the state of mississippi and other states as well. The families are so afraid of the sanctions and the burdensome paperwork that takes to actually go about receiving these benefits that they made a costbenefit analysis, just not receive the benefits at all. An example of this is that if you go through the process of trying to receive tanf in mississippi and you dont go about fulfilling the requirements that are not laid out for you come to dont ask me know with those requirements are, they are at the whim of your caseworker. If you dont go about successfully fulfilling the requirements you could be sanctioned. That sanction could be you could lose your s. N. A. P. , you could measure tanf, whatever the sanction that the caseworker feels is appropriate. That is a debate the debilitating rally. The families choose not to protest it. Lesson 1 of families with the mississippi all about receiving cash assistance from tanf. Mississippi is one of the poorest states within this country. So theres a clear disconnect. The argument that ive heard officials in mississippi use is that they cannot find any poor people in which i i say go oue and throw a rock. You will eventually find one. As we are a state with a significant number of needs, and instead of going about having the conversation of hide which we make sure that families receive the cash assistance that they need so they can live a life of dignity, so they can raise the kids, so they can get to work, and since we keep talking at work, so that they can get to work which is very expensive. Having a job as expensive when youre poor. He had to put gas in your car. You have to have a car. You have to give him to pay for the uniforms for work, to get to work. Instead of making it easy for those processes to happen, we keep penalizing families and we keep providing family with what it is that we feel they need instead of asking them what is it that you need in order to live a life of dignity. Thank you. Thank you very much. Commissioner carter, im aware of your work with fatherhood programs. Thats worked on a very interested in myself. In your testimony you included the fy 21 trump budget justification for tanf from your time with the administration. And im glad to know that you are spending down the 700 million. Can you confirm that in the trump budget recommended repeal in section 417 of tanf law that prohibits oversight . We didnt speak to not having federal oversight. The whole notion was to take a step back and look at how could blend to achieve the objective helping individuals and families grow beyond the developmental vulnerability but nothing in that spoke to federal oversight. Thank you very much and i look forward to interacting with these initiatives. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Pursuant to Committee Practice will move to to to unquestioning, i frankness doctor. Thank you for holding this hearing and i want to thank the witnesses for taking the time to be with us. Based on testimony with her today, asked congress to introduce this work act, we can implement outcome measurements to support americans transition to the workforce and i want to start with you, what are talking about opportunity to develop knowledge, skills and ability you need and opportunity there so when i look at that, i went to see what opportunities are missing and i go to Location School kids, they have a happy because they know they got a job waiting for them, thats the hope i think you talk about. Sometimes its in your education, some have church. Sometimes family but all those things vectoring to the selfesteem he may have a lets talk about poverty. I practiced medicine 37 years, poorest of the poor and i understand the struggles and work with patients on those but one of the common denominators . And raw access, one of the things youve seen over the years. We seen a broad range of challenges and conditions and design and operation of our safety net addresses those. Our system is to be person or family centered and what we mean is we have to begin with the individual or family, understand their unique problem, not try to fit them in to our individual programs but understand them in their totality in the we built a service plan that addresses this component. The folks dont come to us to our programs, they come to us as individuals and families. Thats why we need to talk. Theres a county in my district called rural impact and he gave the case worker authority to make things happen fast. In the family and its a couple with six kids they cant take that job because i have nowhere to sleep when i come home because were living in a one room cabin. How are they doing . I got them into a home with bedrooms, hes working, shes working and with got childcare. This is where we focus on getting back to the individual and family and have guardrails how to spend money and oversight over the decisionmaking. I dont know if any of you heard but look at it because i think it was pretty successful and maybe we need to take a look here to talk about implementing those things. I think it is important so i yield back. Mr. Carey from ohio. I am a rookie here, i apologize. Is this the sec committee . You touched on a few things and first of all, we appreciate you making the trip, we know it is a lot. We appreciate your testimonies and you worked on answering our questions. Tell me more about the magnolia trust and i was pulling it up as you are talking about it, which is the cash come from . They cant go on after that, correct . It is only for that time period, it doesnt go beyond. It is privately. No government money comes in. We truly believe it gives families money. I would ask, i think it is a success story, you started with 20 and your in your fourth federation . Weve reported 320 so not only our program, it is a model replicated to show giving families resources and we go about restriction. The democracy in america shows the private sector made America Great according to this so good to read about your program so i do have a couple questions, missouri spends a large portion of your work funds on Education Training activities, one of the programs and how do you measure success to make sure is he is . Thank you for that question. In missouri we monitor program with measurement and ultimately we publish each year as a department in terms of how performance but each program is based on program quality, how many people are learning a skill and Vocational Training completion. We also measure whether it works. The return public assistance is a reasonably short amount of time so we look at the efficiency of the dollars spent for the its administrative spending, overhead or dollars to a program provided service to a family our annual budget books required to provide in missouri as detailed formance measures we issue corrective action plan and sanction providers that do not perform at that level and based on a finding we had several years ago, state auditor to my right what a test to this process weve submitted. I appreciate that. Over to ask you a question, appreciate your service, what branch . Air national guard. I tip the salute when i see him. What recommendations do you have two and sure continued target, we do have a lot of time so going to yield back the balance of my time. Ill submit something for the record. Miss more from wisconsin. Thank you very much and i want to thank my colleague for sending all of our great witnesses. This is prime time and im not talking prime date under amazon. [laughter] we all agree on the fact that this is the story of waste, fraud and abuse but its not waste fraud and abuse, some recipients from mississippi to 65 which they are not entitled, it is the design. The program is designed to provide money, building a huge bureaucracy people are getting jobs sanction well first defense, getting jobs. In wisconsin where welfare reforms started, we had a diversion specialist and it was that person shop to tell you you didnt need any. It was risk written and they are incentivized and giving reduction or decreasing it and that doesnt mean to say the recipient would get a job, just throw them off you could the prophets. Legislature when we ended welfare as you know it and im reading on finance and have pulled this out. Unlimited money, no restriction from the money and this particular year 1999 provide 24 million and then you keep it. Im just looking here today, only 7 , total 196 million that was spent but 29 of services looking at california, one of those books states where they set money on helping people and only 13 on this. Basic assistance. Commissioner, i thought i would look up hot what you do your 37 on basic assistance. This Assistance Spending is a topic here today like the credit that could poverty in half and the earned income credit, i was the one who negotiated some of those dollars to provide earned tax credit. An increase assistance in this is prime time because we all agree. This program is a failure and i would ask for more time to put things in the record is appropriate now or i can wait. I tell you what i want to put in . Put together and then we will. It puts it on where the pack 12 engages in this. I would say every state, we havent fully recovered after the pandemic and a lot has to do with this leadership using not assistance dollars and according to hhs, he spent 20 on work education Training Programs in 2021 and the National Average is only 7. 6 . I dont think its any surprise the workforce is doing well and a lot of factors but that is something we focus on making sure money effectively as people get displaced and retraining and all of that. What is our strategy to meet where they are . Thank you for the question, it may not be the lowest in the hammers around 56, 57 . The sixth cabinet members who have anything to do with education and Workforce Development so we are looking at the investment opportunities. And we want to use the workforce cabinet and Investment Strategies they are using and redirecting education to come to meaningful outcomes. And i worked for a firm of evaluation in the social impact space and i noticed you highlighting at the state youre interested in putting together some evaluation in the programs and prohibited from doing that, elaborate a little more . Are governor and legislature when we put together this legislation in an impactful way and spend dollars, we want to know what works and what to evaluate the things you would spend the dollars on so we went to evaluate but informed by federal partners that doesnt lead to his purpose so you couldnt spend more on understanding what works. Have done that and all seven, we are very marked with Gold Standard. We will know when we get this, what component part for what works and what wont work. Another thing i just want to speak to, this idea forcing people to work as somehow work, we believe every Employment Opportunity is legal and ethical and intended earnings create a pathway to freedom so back to a job, a better job, or career, work is essential so its beyond. So going about transforming. I appreciate those comments, we refused to spend a little money draft greater impact and thats a clear example. Steel of california. Thank you to our witnesses for sharing. Working this manner within the profile. Small businesses in my district and workforce and childcare. In what ways did they enable scandals . I discussed briefly about the lack of monitoring and enforcement from hhs so that structure of program enabled oversaw in mississippi and i would add to that and say over the course of the last few years weve not seen federal Government Take Action when this does happen so mississippi we submitted single audit in the spring of 2020, obviously three years ago and we dont know hhs response will be to the audit and a strong signal to state the program itself spending seriously by telling the state what it needs to gravity and what it imposes on the state. We are talking likely growth of 100 million when their spending and programs that dont include pdfs of state lawmakers figuring out paying out funds and it is a problem, not a strong signal sent and its taken seriously. Did we hear anything or are they just totally ignoring . We were in the first half, at hhs at the time and responded quickly and communications with him but when the administration changed, it was a fall off in communication, my office has not communicated since august of 22 into one, otto are frequently the communicate, otto what Technical Assistance provides dhs but there has been restoration ive heard from dhs that is lack of clarity with the federal government is going to do. Say you heard from other states, too . Mainly our department. Some states on childcare direct and others transfer to childcare and development grant, you have insight why it creates duplication and why you states have you think the transfers are the right amount . I think there are several questions in their. The question about insight directly on childcare dont really have insight into that. We just taken over dhs as of july 1 this year. The question whether 30 transfers, i think 30 allows for . Ability conversations could yield whether or not that should decrease so the transfer is not as much, i seek your help on the across state wide but also these programs and state leadership. I appreciate the comment about rural programs and work fast and would like to resources quickly but we want under appropriate oversight so that means the oversight can be tracked, that would be a good direction. I yield to mr. Evans. I agree with you, i making enough money and it is called slavery. And i dont appreciate the federal government being a partner trying to fill the need of lowwage workforce disallowing them education and training so they can climb the career ladder. You cant help anybody become a nurse or anything under current rules. Really, to go to college . So were to yield back to mr. Evans and killed take you up. The way it is structured you work activities, you cannot unless you meet the work requirements which are defined and restrictive. There are many ways we can better support families if republican colleagues are serious on lifting them out of poverty, i urge them to support the Child Tax Credit. The Current Program on these jurisdictions. Incredible stressful families burdensome requirement and lack of access to support and no need to make it even more difficult for low income families. Instead, we need to respect and trust them. In many communities trying. It is important if we want a serious discussion. We have somebody so we know what to do but we just need to do it. You to pennsylvania. A great discussion and i would like to thank each of our panelists for the work you are doing. I think all of us, my colleague from pennsylvania and great friend, all of us, both interesi should say, there is a safety net where people can get assistance when they need it when there is hopefully a pathway to that sustaining job thats really important and this is critical to ensure we are doing the best we can. And you talked about families and the initiative before covid, all of the individuals and groups came together to create a Program Named one great job or something and coming into the system and being connected but all the agencies working together suffer for they could come into the system and refer to the hope and incentivize that work. I think to some degree we wont be able to at the county level so the question i have, talked about tennessee and the highest level at 800 million and understand how that happens. How can we have this flexibility but also ensure accountability in the process. The innovation or how to use the dollars to growth the capacity. A lot of discussion about needing more and the intention to help that family grow beyond phone ability and their friend are only. And achieve other objectives, childcare. And north of 700 million. It wasnt that we didnt have, who are not being innovative enough. A similar question to what you see and making sure that we dont have that happen. As an auditor, sometimes too much flexibility signal first engaging in an Innovative Program and donate money to the American Heart Association as a nonprofit but youre not using the office space and people start to believe people handling the money they believe no one is watching so there is a middle ground balance to strike between flexibly and accountability and another example that strikes the middle ground, a terrible job tracking outcomes allowing dhs to track sign statements how many people helped. If that measure have been put in place, you would see a mix of innovation to drive outcomes and accountability for the outcomes were proven. I yield to mr. Smith nebraska. Thank you, i apologize i havent subject to briefly i missed one of your testimonies but this is such a timely topic what many are facing, i hope we dont make the mistake of focusing on tax dollars rather than Human Dignity and i have the honor of chairing a subcommittee produce the bill for jobs for success act. And for someone, facet. Out the door, out of our mind. But it is self will likely not have a positive outcome unless the individual is a position of work trajectory and able to provide for his or her family. There can be numerous definitions of success, i get that but i hope we can focus on the ultimate outcomes rather than boxes. When you look at whether its estate using powers private scholarships or fraudulent case uncovered, i think we can do better. Interested in working together so we can focus on Human Dignity during better by individuals and curious during your investigation when you did uncover and the funds were not appropriately being used for low income american, in terms of frequency, what would you say dollars spent where they ought not be spent . The norm from 2016 to 19 was 4 was spent rather than that so we realize former director davis took over the nonprofit and over the course of the next three to four years, the dollar amount of the grants increased dramatically so by the end you saw the bulk of the money in mississippi going to the nonprofits and at minimum think about show is leading to Human Flourishing or one who is needy and it was a tragedy in a short a lot of time in the course of three to four years. How would you reflect on monitoring and the insight on monitoring and tracking. It is important it occurs in real time. We try to monitor programs with onsite visits and financial reviews in the First Six Months with contracts being awarded them service being provided. So much of the auditing world is that after the fact, dollars fellow citizens paid into taxes so it is very important, the programs we find are good Public Policy purposes but sometimes you have new organizations that lack bandwidth and resources that probably account for the dollars and perhaps lack the support to do that so we have a culture of compliance and i would echo comments that i think are robust federal monitoring, offices Inspector General presence around these programs to not only help states administer programs but also sent a message to providers out there and i look back. I want to thank our witnesses, the overwhelming conclusion listening to the testimony and questioning, the programs are not working the way they would want them to work because the reality is it is not just a federal program, it is a state program, to but states have to spend the money to get more federal money and as i understand, be ability to have so much waste, fraud and abuse in a program continuously funding the program knowing the program is not addressing the real needs of the people who need that assistance to the fact that the Funding Sources are for different things, it reduces the dependency of parents they need promoting preparation and work, it can be used to prevent this and it can be used to encourage formation and maintenance of twoparent households. States cant define whatever way they want in the state of alabama and mississippi in the state of florida and you can go down the list. To find it in a narrow way, people have to be downright dirt poor. We know cost of living has sort. The fact that you have to have money not only for childcare but healthcare and it is these different programs. I think about the fact that the first two i said, we define that, we leave the discretion of to the states and i dont understand how the federal government continuously fund the program but doesnt do what its meant to do so thats why i want to ask whether or not how to reimagine this program . You have a group of policy makers, how did she tell them to reimagine this program . How did you have the jurisdiction to change the program . Thank you for that question. If i have the power to reimagine, i would reimagine families epicenter. We keep talking about the audit, lets listen to the familys needs, have a panel with families and say what is it that you need . So many families who live in poverty come in with this ideal, what it is that they need and dont need and we tell them to take your baton back, he shouldnt have the baton so have those conversations with them. It probably no longer make sense we are today. Is being very paternalistic, some of the most restrictive. We are not saying families should not have to work, they should not be required to take a job we say they have to take. A lot of the answers are minimumwage jobs with no benefits, no protection, no ability to take care of your children. We are trying work with dignity and narrow definition of work so. We generally have an audience taken out of the equation. The fact is you can only make a certain amount of money so youre not encouraged to get a better job let alone have resources to go to school to better yourself. I feel we are creating this cycle. We would be well served and redesign so it doesnt get to needy families. Not all of this waste. We hear about it but dont do anything to change that and i dont think we should for families. We need to be punitive to the folks behind all of this fraud and utilize the money, good taxpayer money going for a safety net, really make a net that is safe. I go back the rest of my time. Missed penny of new york. Thank you for having this meeting, and a thank you to my colleagues for your comments and we know it is a tough issue. Nobody wants to not get the services they need and want to make sure the people taking advantage of the system arent able to take advantage any longer and had we get to the people were truly needy . I appreciate your comments but i will say i come from a state like new york where we dont have the controls and office of Inspector General audited new york program and found significant areas of noncompliance of federal requirements on we are concerned about the nature of the federal requirements focused on this but it concluded new york cannot ensure it has expenditures in 2016 over 4. 8 billion. We do have a problem people taken advantage and hurting people were truly needed and we need to focus on. I was going to ask, i know this was asked, how does arkansas ensure projects funded through grantees and sub grants, what process is used to ensure they meet the purpose . I want to note the fact that mr. Smith talked about process versus outcomes and it is important to deal with outcomes and not checking boxes the targets back, but to the families need and how do we make sure they have good outcomes . Would you do on these issues on these grantees and subgrantees . The highest tax in the country by the way. My husband is from new york and theres a reason he no longer lives there but i will start by saying have recently transferred the program to the department, we are working with those previously who had responsibly, the comments about paying attention, recognizing there needs to be flexibility, there is a benefit to the component of this program. Theres a huge benefit in the noncash assistance part being able to support those who were in that position before so the question becomes, how we Pay Attention and subject grant made to the same controls we have other programs like the Childcare Development program. Is there no flexibility to tailor to a family . Is a something you can do . There is but it takes relationships, not just checking boxes, it is assessing the needs of the individuals and the communities working with the families and communities to make sure we hold them accountable for the outcomes they profess they want to meet for the communities and stability of the families. Your nodding your head so you mentioned the state advisory board, what does it look like how do you have flexibility . Is it a model we can replicate to get flexibility and the human touch . It is our system and we recognize people are unique and thats why we have that, lets get toward outcome dealing directly with families. How have you been able to do that . With that intention, when you talk about not just checking boxes and Human Dignity, what is troubling is we are not held accountable for Human Dignity, we are held accountable for checking the box and thats where we have to drive the times of changes in the system if that individual or family shows up on the doorstep, it ought to be our attention to meet the immediate crisis and give it to how we come alongside you and go beyond this. And we have to live by scraps of the table, it is our intention. And they can tailor to achieve that objective. Thank you. I would like to be recognized. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Id like to add to my time. I selected some states on the amount of spending. Now like to enter that into the record in the structure of the program and before anyone else, people model their program after hours. We created incentive for people to provide profit if they dont reduce their case code. The Workforce Development and childcare. This is an audit. A virginiabased Profit Agency on questionable resources they have. Without objection. But concludes our question and answer. Today. I want to thank the members for their questions and obviously the witnesses, hear suggestions and ideas and this is very helpful as we continue to do our work keeping in mind the taxpayer and how we are responsible and how we grow out of poverty. And that stuck with me. And our responsibility is to ensure funds are spent fully to lift americans out of poverty. Bipartisan reforms to the program to make sure medical welfare dollars are used for their intended purposes. The questions and answers will be form of record and i want to thank you for the time and effort it took to be here and look forward to staying in touch, committee is adjourned. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]