Today we are lucky to feature josephine. Her writing has been featured vulture, vice and slate, among other places, covering such subjects southland tales. The book of joe and love and rockets, the famous comic series. Her book believer the rise and fall of stanley told the story of marvels most famous film cameo, from early success to a sad and sordid end. Now, in her new book, ringmaster where she asks the question, do we live in a world that instant mayhem created . If so, who is affected and why. Joining her in conversation is jeff jess keefe, the of 30,000 steps, a memoir in of sprinting toward life after loss. Keith has written articles for teen vogue runners world and book brooklyn magazine, among others. She has alongside ngos to sing to the stigmatize the addiction and increase the availability of medication early naloxone. Here is josephine reesman and jess keefe. Hi everybody. Heres how you know its real is when have two microphones. Yeah. The first time Vince Mcmahon did a bad guy appearance was in memphis. Not for his own company. It was for this other company. And in the video clip that survives, him doing his first little monologue where hes trying to antagonize an audience, hes two microphones. Its a very odd. There was like one for the tv camera and one for the p. A. System, one for vince and one for mr. Mcmahon. Yeah. Or that that could be a two. Exactly. Sorry i didnt even let you ask a question. Thank you all for being here. Im delighted to be here with jose as well. This book is amazing and im excited. Get into it. Are you ready to get into it . I was born ready. Lets do it. Cool. So i loved this book. It is a very vivid and colorful story. In addition to being a fascinating, look at sort of the late stage post reality that we kind of live in now. But so before we kind of get into those deeper themes, i as a memory, im always interested in the author and still so i wanted to ask you when did wrestling come on your radar as an as a child. So had to do the math on that myself once i of found out about the timeline, historical events and wrestling, i could figure out that im pretty sure i first saw wrestling when i was six years old, which would been around 1990 or so, 1991. And it was late stage hulkamania hulk hogan had very popular in the 1980s especially in the mid 1980s, and he was on the wane. But i had never seen him before, or if i maybe i had of him, i dont know. I was six and a vivid memory of what i knew, what my epistemology was. But i saw him rip his shirt off. You know, this is what the hulkster used to do. He would take his t shirt and just use his big old biceps, just rip it open, and then toss it away and. I thought that was the coolest thing id ever seen on television and i went to my mom and i said, i would like to get a tear away tshirt thinking that that was a kind of right. Sure. Sure. Thats right. And thats what hes using hes using in an everyday tearaway t shirt. Yeah. And mom, this book is dedicated to my mom because god bless her instead of saying, child, go watch pbs, she said, okay. And she took one of my little kid t shirts, kind of split down the middle, got it started and put in little holes in our side, put shoestrings in. So i could sort of go g and like pull it open wasnt exactly ripping it open and it off, but then you could polish strings. And so it was, it was reusable. I wish, i still had that shirt. Thats cool. I was from so long ago. I have no idea what happened to it but that was my but the weird thing was it didnt really stick with i remember that vividly. Yeah but i did not become regular watcher of wrestling until much later. That was would have been when i was about 1313 and a half which the spring of 1999. Yeah i had actually really resisted wrestling. And despite its ubiquity in, the playgrounds of my millennial used to, because my bullies loved wrestling, they were all jerks to me and. You know, i wrote an essay about this for polygon. Theres a special kind of humiliation in being gay bashed by somebody wearing a t shirt that says, suck it, you know . Which was one of the slogans of wwf at the time. It was the the the group dgeneration x, their slogan was, you know, ive got two words for you suck it. And there was something so sexually confusing about all of that yes. And that was when i really i got into it because my best friend brian who did have good taste, didnt bully me except when i deserved it. He was just flipping channels, as one did back in the day and saw something crazy on. Wwf television. And he doesnt what it was. I checked with him. I was like how did you get interested and goes i was flipping and i saw something unbelievable. I wish i could remember what it was, but i remember thinking. You cant. What . You cant put that on and that unfortunately does not narrow it down. Like 1999 wwf that really could have been any number of things. Yeah, but in the early, early months of 1989, he said, you got to check this out. So i gave it a shot and i became an addict and until about late 2001. Wrestling was huge part of my diet philosophy. My conception of what it meant to be a boy, a man which were things i thought i was back and was aspiring to be and yeah we can talk about any and all of that. Yeah, theres my god. Theres so much in there that i. Yes, but that was my entree. Yes. So i feel like we are definitely we came up at the same time. I. Have a very vivid memory of my where labor say me and i had like a neighborhood friend who was very much into hulk hogan as well. And when i came, we had the two most nineties interests which were the Chicago Bulls and hulk hogan. Yeah. Interesting. Hulk hogan even as well. Yeah. A wcw fan. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was like we were pretty young, but like, we would go over there and like play with Action Figures right . Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hogan, i didnt really. I thats the thing about wrestling is even youre not a fan, so ubiquitous its yeah it bleeds out into the culture and that was true before Vince Mcmahon yeah but it happens in the Vince Mcmahon era in a different where like you have wrestlers who are cool or at least think cool but even before that even before wrestling was cool and involved mainstream hipness. You know like i remember talking to my dad when i got this book, my dad, who is not a wrestling fan, not like he hates wrestling. Like its not, you know, no one would ever identify him as a wrestling fan. He hasnt watched it. But well, that and i started doing this book. He oh, yeah. Oh man. I used to remember seeing Bruno Sammartino at the garden and i was like, are you kidding me . And hes like. Yeah, like, you were a wrestling fan. Hes like, no, you just i dont know, my, my dad took me to we were, you know, he grew up in providence and his dad would like drive into boston and theyd see wrestling. And that happened to have been the wrestling Vince Mcmahons dad was producing. So but the point was like wrestling bleeds out into the culture and always has. Yeah, totally. And i feel like it was. I loved how right away in the book we get into this concept of kayfabe, which well talk about. No, yeah, i talk about that all day. Im remember very vividly like my cultural awareness of wrestling really revolved around the big is it real discussion right and how much of that like i wanted to ask you as a as a young fan and you say interestingly in the book, theres bit about, you know, how how much people were really actually thinking it was real or how much they were kind of just like deferring to. Right. Right. So how so . As a young wrestling fan, i do think it was this is one of the great mysteries, my life. I know, i knew that it wasnt all on the level. Sure. But i genuinely cannot reconstruct in my head what my theory of reality was for wrestling. And heres the thing. Im not alone in that room. You look back on your wrestling. Watch chain. I think most wrestling watchers can tell you this. You look back and you go, oh, yeah what did i believe . Because thats not necessarily a turn off, right . If youre confused. In fact, i would argue the confusion is what keeps you coming back, whether realize that or not that effort to sort what seeing into fact or fiction at least as of the turn of the millennium when wrestling was going really hard on messing with reality. Yes. And that was really hard to look away from just because you were like im so baffled that i my mind wants to focus on this, try to sort it out right. And then in the later days of after, weve all seem to as a culture agree that it is not real. This sort of still goes on though. Well, i mean, even by the time i was watching, it was known to be not right that was the weird thing. Yeah. Ten years prior, in 1989, the New York Times had run a story about Vince Mcmahons deregulation effort for wrestling in new jersey and. The headline on page one was was now it can be told these wrestlers are just having fun and. It was february 1989. It was the end of the old kayfabe cold. They had the code the old code that said you know everything that see in the ring is real. That was done then. Thats 1989. Im watching in 1999. That has been known Public Information for ten years. And i still not tell you what i thought were fake because. I was so caught up in it that i dont that mattered to me, right . It didnt seem like it mattered to most people i know part. Oh and like theres some comfort in knowing that its fake because you even you dont know the terms of the fakeness it allows you to watch the violence not recoil. Yeah, because you can go oh well is this fake . And they still always manage to talk about this a little bit as it moves, as we move forward in time, they still always manage to place little nuggets in your head of like. But too, i mean right, right is fake. But these two guys like really do hate. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. You know, there was this incident in 1997, the socalled screwjob where something that at least for most of the people who witnessed it or were involved in it like not expected scripted something for lack of a better term real happened and the entire every viewer of wrestling on some level whether admit it or not is still chasing the high of that time when reality broke through and. You can really tease people with stuff that feels and make them at least. Well, maybe. Yeah, you know, thats the fun. Thats the fun i know. And no other art form other reality tv and. The art of the the art oeuvre of taylor swift really does that on level. Oh, that is true. No, but taylor swift, its the exact same thing. Its doc favorites the gods of the come up with where like you have this false sense that youre seeing behind the curtain. Yeah. And truth is you can stay in character behind the curtain and just be indifferent kind of character, right . Its still a lie, you know, but people because they think theyve seen something beyond the veil, they get excited and think, i know the whole truth. Yes. And thats like you see with t swift fandom or Vanderpump Rules or john cena, you whatever. Yes. Yeah, thats wild. I mean, russell, i mean, so another thing i want to ask is in talking about the performance element of of of wrestling, the book, does such amazing job of really putting you in these scenes that are unfolding and raw, all the various, you know, wrestling programs. I wanted to know because you describe it so vividly, like, do you remember any scenes specifically when you like when you were a young fan like and did anything surprise you when you were rewatched it and re researching it this time . Was there anything like this, this, this image even . I had a moment where i looked at and was like, oh, this image is etched in my mind. Theres a reason the last chat, theres an epilog after this, but theres a reason is the last image after. You finish the last chapter and a reason why the text of the last chapter ends with just describing image. Because it is for me. The seminal moment of my fascination. Vince mcmahon, which led us to this book totally. I remember on and it was june, i believe, six. I might be getting the exact date wrong. 1999 bostons fleetcenter. I was watching from home in chicago, illinois and, oak park, illinois, and i remember the end of this long storyline about who is the greater power or who is this villain who is so villainous that hes been torturing Vince Mcmahon, even evil Vince Mcmahon pales this greater power. The power order is the wrestler, the undertaker to do unholy things like threaten to and almost rape mcmahons daughter like really rough stuff and theyve been trying build up like who is the greater power . Who is the greater power . And long story short, they like the week before they announced to because they didnt actually have a plan of who the greater power was going to be they. Well nobody made sense than vince even that didnt make sense. It made the lead. It made wrestling sense. Yes. Because who is a greater power than Vince Mcmahon . Who is the only person more diabolical in the world of wrestling than vincent . Vince mcmahon. Like i mean, its just theres there were more importantly greater power. There is a greater power. You will now we have ari emanuel. But prior to, there had never been a greater power than vince. So it was just it was perfect. And seeing him come out in this, you know, hooded robe and then in a moment of revelation and whip it back, the hood and show his face in that image, i showed you, ill never forget it. Wow. Especially because i had just started watching while Vince Mcmahon was good guy. And there was this brief period where while he was getting tortured, the greater power they were trying to go, hey maybe this isnt so bad. And like vince is sort of being portrayed as a sympathetic guy that was when i came in to start watching Something Like, yeah, wow, i know this man seems like a nice business man. Maybe hes a little tough as nails, but he gets the job done. And then you reveal that he like arranged Sexual Assault of his own daughter. And i was like, who is this monster . And i guess this book is like in some ways an attempt to try and deconstruct the character that he was playing in that. Yeah. And to figure out who that character was based and where it came from. Yeah. Speaking of entities that were once sort of, you know, considered to be good guys and now maybe thats not so clear theres a very theres a big allegory in the book about the states of america. Yeah. The world, the environment that we all live in as well as know the political figures and, you know, its very easy to see how wrestling and the the drama of it all, as well as the violence of it all connects this other thing. I thought that that was really interesting that figure was that on your mind when you. Oh, god. Yes. Right yeah. I wrote the proposal for this book in, i believe april, april of 20. I first had the idea in a conversation with my spouse the wonderful journalist and editor as i rosenbaum wed been just brainstorming ideas what to do for book two. And one of us said Vince Mcmahon can remember which one of us it was. But then i came back to the idea, and that was about february 20th, 2020. And then a lot of stuff happened and ultimately i found myself locked in my little apartment in brooklyn with then fiancee and. We had three cats and, a lot of panic and anxiety, and i poured all of that into this book proposal. Yeah, i just went. Im so mad and scared about where this country went. And i want this book to be an attempt not to find the reason, because theres no one reason but to trace this one line of dom knows that has not been traced before, which is the prowrestling connection to trump and the Pro Wrestling connection to just the broader culture. And i didnt want it to be screw Pro Wrestling by any means. I love Pro Wrestling. Its a beautiful art form. Art form, great industry, abhorrent. Sure. Yeah. You know, and thats not comes across right thats not you need wrestling of course you know i wrote the last book was about the comic book industry which some like comics great medium unforgivable industry they have a lot of the same traits in that theyre in their unforgiving ability. But yes, yes. And speaking of perfect the portrayal of trump, i feel like the book is really interesting i think to me he comes across as almost a little daffy and this kind of was me and it was trump daffy boy, i guess. Oh, you know, its like we live in this world where trump is what he is now and its oh, its always funny to remember, know, oh yeah, hes strong. I just sort dislike not just eighties trump i am proud to say this as fifties trump wow because we have a flashback to one, you know, one of Donald Trumps childhood went on the record saying, you know, when we were growing up in queens. Yes, little would watch wrestling with us. And there was a wrestler named anton nino and he to he just thought the guys name was rocky anthony. Now and he would refuse to call against nino rocca that. He would only call him rocky anthony. You know. And so theres this quote of him talking about that and you do the math and youre like, well, he was watching Mcmahon Family wrestling because in queens, rocky, rocky. And im doing it now. Anthony rocca was one of mcmahon seen, his wrestlers, his star, donald has been a wrestling head since he was a child. Yeah yeah, he was in Single Digits age. The way he comes across the times we see him, you know, talking about Atlantic City and talking about is this one of my fears, right . He was like, what an honor it was. Yeah, he was very deferential, which i thought was very to spence and. Yes. And wrestling. He loves wrestling. Yes, i was. Yeah, that was interesting. And also another very funny. Theres a lot of like very deadpan humor i found in the book. And this moment, trump genuinely somebody right after, oh, i didnt want to read too much into the Single Source story, sure. But triple h, vince son in law didnt a number of years ago where he said that night or the morning after, a nighttime show where Vince Mcmahon had faked his death as a character on the program, trump called up wwe and said, hey, is vince okay. So this i know you want to believe. Yeah mean i mean i guess i saw it from like a writer perspective, right . Like i felt like you made a lot of really deliberate choices about how to portray trump in the book. And i had to hes hes the hes the elepha