Thank you for including me in this conversation. Doctor johnston, thank. You at this time, i have been notified that at the direction of the chair, the subcommittee will stand in recess for ten minutes. The next, speaker the committee will come back to order. Our next speaker will be, dr. Rose from the Community College. You have done a fantastic job, there i say that without any hesitation. You better be good today its great to be here. Its a great to call you chairman, weve called you many titles before. Youve called me many names before. Be honest that is true. All right. I am steve, rose and president of the same kelly Community College, our main college is in the great city of patterson, new jersey. Which is the third largest city in our state. I have been president since 1996 and have been in the collagen since 1980. Seven when i, arrived we had approximately 2000 students per, year and currently we serve over 11,000. This growth is fairly typical of Community Colleges during this time span. 80 of our students are minority with many having english as their second language. While many have sought to seek an associate degree to get into a career as registered nut. Others come seeking our Workforce Development products programs. The topic at this hearing, expanding access to higher indication and the promise it holds, this is why Community Colleges were created. Pccc is an open institution, serving people from a very educational background. While some unraveled fully ready for the levels of college work, others are are ill prepared. Some enter with well developed writing skills, while others struggle with literacy. Community colleges are all students are often the first generation of the family to be enrolled in. College but pccc students are the first in the family to graduate from high. School we welcome all these students. We believe, regardless of age, that every student should not be limited in life by a lack of education. It is never too late. A College Degree is still the easiest path to the middle class, and our programs are designed to help students reach these goals. However, the students face significant challenges. Many work fulltime while attending school. The type of jobs they work and often have unpredictable schedules and mandatory overtime. Approximately 21 of our students are single parents. The pandemic has only enhanced these challenges. During the past, year students face unprecedented challenges, many Struggle Adapting to remote classes, like the technology they needed. Many lost their jobs and were directly impacted by covid. The financial support that students and college received was necessary and impactful. We were able to provide laptops to all of our students who needed it and provide financial help when you. That i am not exaggerating when i report the aid to students was in many cases lifesustaining and changing. Community colleges have historically been cyclical in the economy. Our enrollments tend to grow and grow when the economy is thriving. When individuals have strong employment options, they put off in rolling at college. Probably not a good idea. Pccc enrollment hit an alltime high in the 2010s and has been declining since 2012. We saw a decline in enrollment when students this impacted students who are new and students who were currently enrolled. The pandemic has brought challenges that we anticipate will last for many years. Enrollment dropped 17 this. Year most of the decline came from newlyenrolled students rather than continuing students. Enrollment patterns from local high schools tend to follow fairly predictable historic patterns. For the fall 2020 semester, we experienced a relatively minor decrease in houston known roman from moore a fluent school districts. The loss of Student And Roman from urban districts was dramatically. Wears enrollment from several urban high schools was down 15 50 . It is clear the students did not choose to go elsewhere, they just did not go to college. The outlook for fall 21 continues to be grim. Many urban high schools report that students stopped attending remote classes at some point in the year and many will not be graduating. In some cases, the school districts report that they have totally lost touch with the students. Significantly, it appears students who do plan to attend this fall are coming with greater academic deficiencies. From a preliminary analysis, as the students will be in more remedial classes as typical, since research has insisted that greatly reduced numbers, it would appear that College Graduation rates could be hurt for years to come. I believe i can speak for all Community Colleges when i say we will continue to do whatever is necessary to ensure the success of our students. The challenges are daunting, the cost of failings for two. Great thank you we. Any questions . I have 450 questions. But i want you to know we are very appreciative and we will have a chance for questions a little later. I want to thank you very much. Professor barr not ski, you are now recognized for five minutes. Thank you for being here. Chairman pascrell, members of the committee, thank you for having me. A College Education is a great investment. Over a lifetime a person with a Bachelors Degree will earn, on average, 1 million dollars more than a less educated worker. Even with record high tuition prices. But as colleges grown more, valuable it has also grown more unequal. Lowincome children are unlikely to earn a b. A. When they grow up just 9 do so. The odds are six times higher for children from upper income families. 54 will earn a b. A. This gap is not shrinking. If anything, it is growing. I give you these statistics to get us thinking about our goals for the Education Tax incentives. Whether they have been a success after all depends on the goals we set for them. Is our goal to ease the pinch of college costs or upper income families whose children attend expensive colleges . If so, then the Tax Incentives to a possible job. I think our goal is far more ambitious. That we want to open the doors of college to anyone who can benefit. If this is our goal, than the current Tax Incentives are a complete failure. Why . The Tax Incentives can increase schooling only if they put money into the hands of those for whom prices are a barrier. When and where they need that money. These potential college students who need assistance are overwhelmingly from low income families. They attend Community Colleges. Where tuition and fees average 30,000 dollars 3000 this is who we should keep in mind when we designed tax inside tips for college. A low Income Person attending college. Unfortunately, this Education Tax incentives do very little for low income students. Perversely, they provide the most money for upper middle class students in private colleges. Here are some facts that drive from the statements. The Tax Credits are only partially refundable. Allowing comes dude and gets a credit of only 1000 dollars a year when a return gets 2500 dollars. The full life over 10,000 dollars. Community colleges, which educate a majority of Undergraduates China less than that. The covered all in saving plans benefit those who can afford to save and those who faced high tax rates. That is the health wealthy. And if the low Income Family does managed to, say they are punched punished for it. The Regress Video of the Tax Incentives is not all but pumpers hampers their effectiveness. Its too complicated and confusing to affect school decisions. The Irs Publication to current families cannot respond to a Price Subsidy that they do not know about or understand. We are better off funding simpler programs that work and trying to explain programs that were dont. If our goal is expanding tax we must set aside the illusion that the increase education, the evidence is clear on this question. As it stands, the Education Tax incentives are essentially a transfer program. They get money to households that have sent people to tell college. To do this modest, all they should impose minimal paperwork and go to the families that need the most. Money heres a recommendation. First, create a single, fully wrote met refundable credit. This comprehensive definition of schooling expensive is what is gonna be used for the bell accounts which benefit wealthy families. A narrow definition is the use for the. Credits which have the potential of helping at least second, deliver the credit at the time of College Enrollment of the committee will make a difference. Finally, you asked me to address the endowment. Its supposed to weigh this tax if the school makes efficient effort to be affordable. Heres what defines such a. Does a college meet the full financial need of its students as defined by the fess up and . The questions on the profile distinguish well before the rich and the extremely rich. But even the students who gets an automatic ufc of zero, that is the highest needs, has to complete this complicated. Form a professional be required of low income students. In conclusion, the Education Tax benefits provide relief for upper income people who have gone to college but they provide comparatively little relief for low income families. The evidence is clear that the Tax Incentives do nothing to expand access. There are no substitute for federal financial aid or free college. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Dynarki we appreciate your efforts today. I want to thank you. Our final witness, i believe, is mr. Paul suffer. You are now recognized for five minutes. Thank you for being with us today. Thank you Chairman Pascrell thank you for the distinguished members of the subcommittee. I am happy that you are convening this Meeting Today and Offering Perspective the promise of higher to k shun one needs to fit the times of the times we. Live my name is sculpts pulsifer. Wow who saw the opportunity to expand access and improve outcomes and improve learning. Our mission is to change lives for the better by creating pathways to opportunity. Today, we serve more than 130,000 fulltime students. Of whom 70 would be classified in one or more categories of underserved populations. The idea that the pathway to opportunity should be open to all is shared by all of. As this i. D. Remains a bipartisan objective. Sadly, it is increasingly evident that higher education is not lived up to its promise of the great equalizer. According to the pell institute. Students who grew up in high income houses were five times more likely to get it education. This can be indicative of our it can be a mountain traverse for lower education. People for higher education soon have flexibility, quality of instruction to succeed. The future work demands the continued acquisition of new skills and knowledge in order to progress through Ones Career and life to stay competitive as a nation higher education must meet the diverse needs of, americans across the careers. For both the next and last opportunity. For higher education to be a pathway, enormously to opportunity. While that may sound obvious it is not a conclusion that reveals itself from a study of higher educations outcomes. Last year for black students, theyre closer to 40 . For financially independent students, half of todays enrollment, it is estimated only one out of three will complete their degree. For too many, higher education is a path to nowhere. Paved with debt. Perhaps most importantly hired to Kitchen Bus not just be affordable but valuable. Public investments and higher education should result in progress and economic mobility. A post secondary Value Commission supported by the Gates Foundation and the institute for higher Education Policy found that 649 institutions leave their students with zero economic return after accounting for the cost of attendance. Many of the ideas to address hired occasion Issues Today often focus on how to help pay for it. And pay they must as the inflation and adjusted cost, thats the inflation adjusted cost of higher education, has risen 120 since 1985. Those who argue that this burden is too heavy for students to bird bare are absolutely correct. We need greater accountability for the cause of education, not just new models of pain for. It but for todays working, Learner Affordability is not the only barrier. And often not the most difficult to overcome. Lack of flexibility in scheduling, mode online, or in, classroom location, faculty interaction, etc, limit Student Success limit student access completion. Policies should consider critical relevancy and ultimately value. We do tax payers a disservice and by merely shifting the cost of hired uk shun to im grateful to this committee to show my perspective and share an example of w. Do you. Arts who shunned fees are less than 800 dollars a year. Our competency models allow the students to progress at a pace that is right for. Them through a responsible burrowing issue, we have driven Student Debt down 42 during the past seven years to just over 14,000 today. Thats on half the national average. From Gallop Survey 77 of our graduates say it was worth the cost compared to 37 nationally. We offer degrees and credentials online. Our graduates are employed at rates at or above the national average is with income gains nearly double the national average. A w. Wgu we know how Affordability Inflexibility are important in increasing access entertainment. Im proud that wgu is living proof that america can do better and hire to. Caution and on behalf of individuals and families in society we need to. I yield my time to the subcommittee and i look forward to discussing this issue in more depth. Thank you mr. Pulsifer for yielding your time. Thats it. Thank you mr. Pulsifer for your comments. They were on target. I now im opening the hearing for questions. Which member will be recognized for five minutes. To question the witnesses. Dont go over the five minutes, im talking to myself as well. If the witnesses will respond with short and can cite answers, all members should be able to ask questions. We will go an order of seniority for questioning. Alternating between minority and majority. Beginning with the members of the oversight committee. Members are reminded to unmute themselves when they are recognized for five minutes. I will begin by recognizing myself for five minutes. Mr. Rose, you have the first question. Its good to see you as i said before. Your expertise is needed to help us understand how the pandemic affected transition from high school to college in passaic county. How is the lack of in School Learning and the access of online learning affecting students and their readiness for college . Go right ahead. One of the schools we are very familiar with our own kennedy has go down the block from here. We saw a 50 decline in the number of students last fall who enrolled here than normally do. That is devastating. The same was true of pacific high school. The same is true of several of the other urban high schools. But the suburban high schools were relatively unchanged from previous years. So theres obviously something going on when you look at the difference between what is going on in american schools and what is going on in suburban schools urban schools. We are starting to see students our numbers are off again for fall 21. And the students who are coming, who are in, rolling and we are assessing where they are, it looks like many of them are going to be starting further behind than typical. Theyre gonna need more developmental classes in order to try to catch them up. That is going to affect the students for years to come. Youre intending, i believe, to start up again person to person, im i correct or incorrect . Totally correct. You have already stated in your problem, this is necessary, very important. Are you going to be ready . We are going to be ready, but one of the things we are doing this summer, we have all these students who are not graduating from high school. So we are offering them a free Ged Program right now if they are willing to get that credential so they can start college. Youre gonna do that with the high schools where the obvious Attendants Rate was down and the applications are down to you . Where are we getting too . How we get into . Them for talking to the guidance counselors and the superintendents and to the principles every day. Anyone they can identify, we are doing it for free. Anything they need, we are ready to step up and get these students so they can start college this fall and be ready. Doctor rose, are you an advocate of the Stem Program which has brought together a lot of high schools in . America absolutely, of course. It it has been very successful at your school . We send about 20 students every summer to nasa for five, six weeks. When they come, back we they are transformed. These students, their lives are changed. So Stem Education but one of the problems as we have to start working with students when they are in middle school, and we are doing. That because by the time they get to senior year and high, school if they havent had enough math and science, going into one of the stem areas is very difficult. Not impossible, but very difficult. So we have to work with them at a young age to try and make sure that they are ready for a stem. Career at the boys and Girls Club in patterson, you are doing they have a great stamp program. Are you aware of that program . Im working with them, sure, of course. Its a good program, and im all for. It 100 . Stem program to me is all the way out and one of the engines. You Guys Center Stage here. We are missing the vote if we dont support you. Guys one more question, i understand the college is tuitionfree for students with Family Incomes below 65,000. Is that correct . That is correct. Thats a new program in new jersey. Community College Opportunity grants. Yes. Please explain how that impacts your ability to attract students, more students. Could you address how congresses simplification of the free application at the federal Student Aid forms could contribute to improve access . To hire education . If itas you heard the testimonr the professor before, if it is not simple, it does not work. It has to be simple. We have so many students who would qualify for a Pell Grant, but they cant get through the application process. They get thrown into this morass of verification and we are asking them to bring in documents from a strangest relatives they havent seen in years. Thats the only way they can get financial aid. We have to keep it simple. If we think things like the american Opportunity Tax Credit. It is a wonderful program. I have been doing this for 40 years. Now i worked with students and parents. I have never once heard a student say, oh, yes i can afford college because of a refundable Tax Credit. That is not why they come. They come because we have a simple message. Right now, in new jersey, we can say, if your Family Income is under 65,000 dollars a year, you can attend college for free. That is what we have to send. Doctor rosa, thank you for your simplicity. Thats what we need just keep it simple. We should tell that to the congress of the united states. We have a problem doing that. Lets go to the next person we are going to have is mr. Kelly, for five minutes, to ask your question sir. Thank you. Mr. Pulsifer, i find your testimony interesting. This idea of having the flexibility to choose things. I think theres one thing this pandemic has pointed out to us is that you dont have to be on campus to learn, there are other ways to. Learn im really interested in what wgu is gonna be able to do. And your testimony, you mentioned your approach at wgu. How does your Pace Approach play out in a practical way for students who have obligations, they have, jobs they have families, they dont have the same ability to attend class early in the morning or late at night. How do you do that . Thank you member kelly for that question and thank you for your recognition of wgu innovation. The model relies upon keeping the standards for learning constant for every individual who goes through. It and letting the time vary. What that simply allows the individuals who may have a particular proclivity for learning one subject matter have prior experience in it, they can accelerate through those courses and learning at their pace that is right for them and dedicate more time to focus on the new concepts of those topics and courses that are new to them. In doing, so whats that actually allows our students to do is move at a pace that is faster than the typical kind of credit our, 15 a, weak Term Model that is in traditional higher education. Such that our graduates are, and dear, graduates finish their degree in on average two years and four months. That will be 16,000 dollars to. Them so the competency based Education Model is just more flexible to allow us to design Curriculum And Learning outcomes that are relevant to the opportunities in jobs and they will pursue. And it allows them to focus but time in attention where they need. It the term you use, working learners the college i went to its whole formation was because there wasnt a place for migrants coming into our country to get educated. Especially depending on what they religion they practice. So what happened was the result of bringing education to those who could never have afforded education. I will tell you this, when i moved to rotterdam in 1966, it was 1800 dollars a semester, 3600 dollars a. Year it is currently 74,000 to attend rotor dame. I dont know how in the world people ever get to go. There although i know with the aid and the average cost, it stands at 32,096. How have youve been able to keep the cost of education adds wgu down and what can other institutions learn from your process in the way you look at this and making it affordable for those working learners . The working learners for everyones benefit here is that is the more common nature and profiled the Learners Today in higher education in general then we might think. Well over 50 of students are working fulltime or parttime. So that this requires significant demands on their time. From acosta and, point its pretty simple at w. G you were just first and foremost, we put the student at the center of what they. Do they are our primary customer. We are here to help them complete their education. All of our costs are set on the technology, curriculum development, so that has allowed us to not invest in buildings and classrooms and campuses and other Student Life things that are not as common or as needed for those working learners. We are focused on the acquisition of capability, skill, and knowledge that is needed for them to progress in their lives and are probably less focused on emerging adult experiences that can comprise a large so the last thing i will say for the individual is pretty important, the culmination of delivering on nine, 100 of our curriculums, online and the Competency Base Model where we have a fluctuation, that we have a cost of under 4000 dollars for one six Month Term in which the student can complete as many cases as they are able. So as they can actually go at the rice that pace that is right for. Them they spend less time and less cost to actually complete the degree. I want to thank you all for being here, today i really appreciate that information. Please do not pass anything that i say under president , a broader Dame Father jenkins, he will come back and say we missed out the first collection in the second collection. Thank you for what you are. Doing that model though, chairman, that model was one that makes sense and i know all the rest of you are working with the same ideas on how to make it more affordable. That Return Investment is incredible. So thank you all for what you are doing i want to stay in touch with you have more questions. I dont have time now. But your use of mentors in the way you are doing this virtual learning is actually critical. Well get back to that another. Time thank you all for being. Here mr. Pulsifer thank you. Again Mister Chairman, great. Hearing thank you. Im being consistent with the committee practice, we will move to mr. Suozzi. Tom . Thank you Mister Chairman. Keep it simple for the people in congress. It is so complicated. I have 60 of americans do not graduate from college. Thats a large that the majority of the people in the country. I have been in public life for 25 years and we have always been encouraged to go to college, go to college, go to college. 60 do not go to college. I did look at the u. S. Census a few years ago and i said there is 105 million fulltime jobs in america. And 105 million fulltime jobs, 89 million of those 5 million jobs pay less than 75,000 dollars a year. So i had an epiphany but suits on they had young guys who are part of the union my father was mad at me my grandfather told me to join the union he. New somebody some other people told the similar story. The first guy was in his late twenties, he made 100,000 dollars. A year second guy was a he made 120,000 dollars. The third guy made 145,000 dollars. Then they get up five in the, morning they travel hours to go to, work and these guys they work really hard. They work a lot of. Overtime theyre living a great life. I was like you guys are doing great youre doing fantastic we should encourage more people to do that. So i want to ask the different speakers that are here, especially all of. You all ask olive. You i have three minutes left why dont people want to go to college . When how much of it is based upon affordability, how much of it is just based on people who are not suited to go to college, and what can we do to get more people who can afford or who dont want to go to college. You do want to go to college, you want to take a class to become a welder, while you sit in the classroom for a year and a half either. You want to get a. Work you want to earn what you. Learned you want to be in an Apprenticeship Program. What can we do what can we do to the 60 of americans who dont graduate from college and what can we do for people to make more money thats a scale that is not what they steve, rose you go first. We started a welding. Program one of the things is this a Collagen Pennsylvania that offers a Bachelors Degree involving. We have a mature we keep up curriculum up to date and we are offering the type of things that are going to get people jobs and those type of jobs that you are talking about and thats where we constantly need to do. Again, keep it simple, send a message that college is affordable by keeping these programs simple and more people will go to college. I think its pretty simple. Marge, why do you think people are not going to . College i think that we have a college growing culture from the beginning. And theyre early Tao Thuds childhood k12. We have a wealth of research that shows when a parent or the School System is able to build that from the very beginning it increases the likelihood of students going to college. We also know, in addition, to we have a pretty stratified under case system. School counselors stern ratio is 461 students to one School Counselor. I had a School Counselor that really invested into me but not everyone has. That its not because School Counselors. Theyre having to deal deal with Scheduling And School courses, among every. Things we have to remember that from the beginning. Let me get the other folks to say something quickly. Doctor johnson you wanna say something . Sure. I think that one thing we can do is take a look at these students who enroll but do not completes a degree i would say that these are the students who are damage the most through their educational experience through debt and no degree. If Theres Anything we can do to help those students why is that why is that happening . Why are they applying to college and not graduating . In my be financial. They may need more support financially but they may need other kinds of support that might be offered through advising, through student services. Sometimes people need to drop out for family reasons. Weve heard many of those stories. So i apologize. Its the cruelty of the clock. But susan and stand, i would like to know i would like to talk about this little. More Mister Chairman, thank you very much for my five. Minutes chairman, im very grateful for your questions. Now were going to ask miss chu for five minutes. Yeah, thank you mister chair. As one of two psychologist paying off my graduate loan, im not particularly concerned about the rising cost of earning an advance to raise. Interest in training on federal loan fortunately still suspended tell september 30th, under the covid 19 Emergency Interest rates are going to rise a whole Percentage Point for the 20 1 22 school year. Because a Budget Control after 2011 eliminated subsidize soon and wine loans for graduate students these followers also pay things in school earning their degree. Im reintroducing my legislation to restore subsidize student loans for graduate students. Many career pass an advanced degree but dont offer high starting salary such as social workers, School Counselors, teachers. The additional few years after school are particular harmful special first students who take out loans for their undergraduate degree. Talk about whether you see they have out of school pathways that required advanced degree that dont have especially high salaries because of for graduate studies and what remedies are theyre . This goes back to the point a host of house then like systemic issues. People of color have to get hired to some aspect of pay disparities. Grad programs 50 40 of student loans. I remember when i was at school for grad school, i was asking what happened when i went to grad school . All the loans were subsidized and we do know there are even disparities with funding. Black students typically dont have as many Scholarship And Fellowship opportunities as other students. That calls them to take out more loans. Theres a host of solutions the government can do. Instituting that there should be some subsidized requirement. They should also be a type of requirement for grad schools that they dont produce more than their computers to pay off. We ensure these programs are a benefit long term for students. We should institute some price caps on grad programs. If cant be done, there is opportunity to specific targets bids if programs. Providing Palm Funding for students. Rethinking law school, taking off a year maybe an inventing it in undergraduate Year Type of programs. Thank you for that. Doctor dynarski, im particularly concerned about the impact on entrepreneurship as we rebuild after covid. It has an enormous impact on by 14 . Student at negatively impacts and Persons Ability to qualify for business loans, and its associated with a 48 decline in business income. Thats why i am [inaudible] supporting americas young trip enters in 2021 which provides Student Loan Forgiveness for entrepreneurs and ensures and they are exempt for taxable income. Can you talk about how student loans impact entrepreneurship . Student loans perform an important role. Theres limits to what we give out in terms of grants. There is evidence that boring makes it more likely that people accrue more credits and go on to graduate. Its important to understand that student loans were created in order to create more access to college, and as long as were not gonna be giving completely free college out, we will be needing student loans. Most people repay their student loans rather than see another targeted lean Loan Forgiveness program, i would honestly like to see a broad based universal income based program that helps anyone who needs a hand. That hewe have quite a people a few people who are defaulting on small loans, but its because they have very small incomes. A well structured income based program would help to fix that. The program should ensure everybody against bad outcomes, id like to see it, rather than add to this is specific targeted programs as we have heard teachers, doctors, so forth. Make loans work for everybody. Thank you very much much true from california. Now im gonna welcome in lance winds jerome for five minutes. You are on. Thank you Mister Chairman, and thank you mr. Kelly. When i finish my surgical residency ahead substantial student loans, a whole list of them. I understand what we have to do with this. The significance it puts on someone when they graduate. The soaring cost of institute to wish and i understand and how that may affect our future workforce. That is concerning. I can tell you with my loans, i had them all listed out and i paid the high interest loans as soon as i could and ran out the low interest loans. At the end of the day, it worked out. We consider education, we all know a one size fits all is not right. Sometimes they place emphasis on a traditional four Year Degree and while these programs might be the best for some students, its not the answer for everyone. Students may benefit from the other options that wouldnt require loans to pay for their program, and i think we could work towards policies that help our students take on this debt but at the same time look at a menu of option for students considering higher education. We have some things out there securing a strong Retirement Act in 2021. It allows employers to invest in new him Ploy Retirement and matches what they are paying off of student loans. They are not paying off student loans and being held out from retirement. Thats some of the bigger picture. Mr. Suozzi was talking about well being students. I remember i met some wildings turn several occasionals dunes. They knew they had a good paying job waiting for them. They recently visited a Career Development and it was in my community, they gave businesses, industries, labor organizations helping them for 50 years and plugging into the community. I also worked for employers who are having a hard time filling positions available for the skills gap. Many at a high school, we need more of them with Queer And Education to meet the demands of industries. They drive america. In some ways we had an attitude that if you dont have a four Year Degree, somehow you failed. Nothing can be further from the truth. Question, how do you think congress can help respective students be better to make fully aware of what their options are . As a soldier, Id Talk to gee eyes with the Gi Bill and talking about, listen, do your homework. You have this great benefit, make sure you are using it towards something thats going to enhance your Availability And Market ability in the workforce. How we make people more aware of that and how can we ensure institutions are gonna make cost affordable for the rest of their life. Congressman, for thank you congressman for that question. Also love the great state of ohio. We now have three years of State Affiliate in the great state there. They have partnered with wgu to expand. Operations. One of the most important things to actually do is increase the Transparency And Understanding of the multiple pathways that can lead to great opportunities. Theres an opportunity to provide greater evidence as it relates to whatever the different pathways, whether they are economic potentials of these pathways, where can these pathways be pursued because not all of them need to go through a college. Many of them can go through alternate providers, even Employer Training programs. These are one of the dynamics that exist today in higher education, or at least in postsecondary education, i would say. To the future of work, where more than 65 of all the jobs are going to require some post secondary credential. The acquisition of this credentials is actually gonna come through multiple different pathways. Individuals need to have that information available to. The congress can increase the transparency. It can help to give better and information about the outcomes that will be expected from these pathways. But to the second question, how do you lower costs, theres much more time needed that we need to discuss this relating to the institutional. Side but congress can increase the transparency around what is the cost to pursue this. How much should a person consider financing for these programs so they can complete and be on their pathway to a job. Thank you. I yield my time. Doctor one struck, i want to thank you for your line of questioning because i think options are something we need to put on the table. Because a lot of these kids think the only way they are going to succeed, someone mentioned, it is to get a four year college right. Away that to me is thank you for your line of questioning about that. The chairman now recognizes mr. Docker. From the great state of texas. Thank you very much. Thanks for the insightful comments of each of our witnesses. Speaking of texas, it was over 50 years ago that President Lyndon b. Johnson signed the first higher Education Act in san marcus, texas, at what is now texas state university, the college that he attended. And i had the great fortunate the fortune to represent today. At that time, he proudly proclaimed that his objective was that, quote, a high school senior anywhere in this great land of ours can apply to any college or any university in any of the 50 states and not be turned away because his family is poor. Well, sadly, as our Witnesses Today have indicated and as we can all see, america has not been able to fulfill his promise to our young people. Cost is now far too often a brick air, and instrumental, barrier, and getting post secondary education of whatever type. More than a decade ago, i personally authored legislation to help restore some of that promise to the extent we could through our committee. Those are the provisions of the american Opportunity Tax Credit since 2009. The aotc has helped millions of americans pay for college. It gives 2500 dollars a year in tuition fees and expenses. And it provides a portion of that credit is refundable. Through the years i have attempted to expand it. A couple of our witnesses have questioned the wisdom of using Tax Credits and tax expenditures to do what can be done more directly through a direct expenditure appropriation. Let me say that i, as the author of this Tax Credit, and the first person to agree with them. I wish they could convince a majority of this committee on both sides of the aisle, that that is a better approach. I would prefer a more a program to the american opportunity tax. Credit but we live in a reality where this committee is in charge of tax expenditures and has a preference for those, in many cases. And as a practical matter, while tax expenditures have the same impact on the Budget Deficit as direct expenditures, particularly some of our republican colleagues will vote for as Tucks Expenditure when they will oppose a direct expenditure. Whatever method we use, it ought to be as simple and direct as possible, whether the issue is providing for higher education, providing affordable housing, providing for electric charging stations, or any number of other purposes considered in my committee i prefer the direct expenditure. But i also prefer the pragmatism of trying to get as much assistance to students who are trying to get a higher education as we possibly can provide. I think our objective has to be to get those students all of the education that they are willing to work for to try to achieve their full god given potential. As we look at the approach to do that, many students who have been eligible for the american opportunity and Tax Credit and also eligible for Pell Grants have not been able to get the full benefit of growth for. Congressman davis, all of us came together about the 40 plus colleagues to introduce bipartisan legislation to fix this problem to assure that those who are using upheld grant can also get the full benefit of the american Opportunity Tax Credit. Mr. , chairman i appreciate the fact that you joined in that effort. Our tax free Pell Grants act would extend a tax free usage of Pell Grants from tuition to cover all educational expenses, for and this bill also expands the qualifying expenses for the aotc to cover computer costs, obviously, invaluable in the higher education these days. And childcare, which is also significant to being allowing allowing a lot of college students to continue with their education, or in a noncollege study for postsecondary. Childcare has become a barrier for many students, this bill is designed to remove. It dr. Johnson, let me just ask you in my closing time here, in your written testimony, you support ending the Tax Ability of scholarship and grand aid. Why do you believe that it is important to do that to assist students who are economically disadvantaged from continuing with their education . Thank you congressman and let me start by thanking you for your efforts to improve the taxation challenges that face many of our students. We would welcome a long Term Opportunity to work more with you on that. The much of what you said i agree with completely and am grateful to hear you talk about the Pell Grant in particular. In terms of taxation, i think that in many cases, students are not taking advantage of what is available to them. I think that the simple idea is part of what we need to address. So that students understand how they can take advantage of what is available. But in terms of the a to see and pell interaction, the credit contains a grant unintended effect by sharply eliminating the benefit received by the students. Approximately 725,000 students are affected adversely by that every academic year. So the work that you are doing is critical in that. We would support your continued work on that. Thank you very much. Let me ask doctor rose how childcare is a barrier to Student Success and the importance of our addressing a Child Care expenses for postsecondary students. Congressman doggett, excuse me, our time has run. Out it thank you mister chair. I apologize. I know that you would ask a great question. You can submit. It you are great personality in education. Thank you for your very refreshing testimony and we are now going to call on mr. Evans for five minutes from the great state of pennsylvania. Thank you. The home in philadelphia as one of the largest black populations nationwide. Yet a has disparities that exist between blacks and white residents. It has restaurants, shops, and a thriving Art Scene and 75 of residents have College Degrees. When they pass industrial areas black residents have suffered on decades of and generations of poverty, education obtain below 25 . Investment Investment And Money workforce especially training for infrastructure related jobs. Doctor rose, those in philadelphia who currently have no education and loved college College Education when you think is the most profitable way for them to have education, technical training, earning an associate degree, earning a Bachelors Degree . Doctor roofs . Theres no One Answer to that question. For many students, Workforce Development programs are absolutely what they need. Some Folks Cant commit to doing something for two years or four years, and if we can get them through a program in 46 months that could get them to the Tampa Wage that will be lifechanging for them, thats what we need to do for them. We need to make opportunities available. I want to tell someone you should go get a ph. D. If thats what they want to do. If theyre willing to put the time in, great. Workforce development programs are key to getting students those types of jobs. When students start a Workforce Development program, weld, or something in health care area, they come back. They learn how to take blood, go in the field, then everyone is applying to become a registered nurse and to take it to the next level. Just because youre starting in a Workforce Development program, doesnt mean thats where you will end up. Meaning that where you start is not where you finish then . It doesnt have to be. I thank you Mister Chairman. Thank you for your answer. Thank you Mister Chairman. I yield back bouncing my time. Mister chairman . Thank you for being with us today. You asked a very pointed question and you got a good answer. Thank you for being with us today from the great state of pennsylvania. The chair now recognizes mr. Smucker from pennsylvania for five minutes. Mr. Smucker, thank you for being with us. Thank you Mister Chairman. Thanks to all the witnesses for being here today. Mr. Pulsifer good to see you again. We had a chance to meet several times during the past two conversations when i was a member of the Education And Labor committee. I spent much of my two years as the ranking member on the higher Education And Workforce investment subcommittee, discussing the reauthorization of the higher Education Act. One thing i was pushing for was emphasizing the importance of alternatives to traditional fourYear Degrees, including technical education. I was a nontraditional student in college, working during the day, attending college at night. I was the first in my family to graduate. None attended college but also from graduating high school. I see the importance of education and what it could do to ensure you have a great career and it brought a lot of opportunities for me. We won every single Child And Student to be able to access a great career. Have their own opportunity to live the american dream. We want them to ensure the best pathway to get there. I support those who need help and i think there are impacts of that that we have to talk about, particularly as democrats on the committee here are proposing a massive expansion of federal spending. So, you had mentioned a 120 increase in the cost of a four Year Degree. Thats factoring in inflation. When did you say that was . 1985. So 120 , more than double since 1985. I think, again i support aid, but i also think the more Money Somebody putting in rather than the individual, the less accountability there is in the cost and ensuring that it is the right path for a student. Do you agree or have concern with that . I agree with that but we should have concerns about it. You are right, that is 120 increase on inflation adjusted basis over that 35 years, and the cost has risen to Percentage Point faster than inflation every year. The reality is, the cost of instruction, the cost of services, administration, like so many of these are contributing factor to these and some of the State Funded Budgets that supported the postsecondary education has been a factor in that. What is a challenge, there is no check against the rising cost. Certainly, many of the public institutions still have accountability to State Board of educations and regions etc, but the reality is, and individuals and their families are bearing a hard portion of the cost of attending education. Without any check against the rising cost its if i can stop, you what would you do . Do you think it makes sense to provide free college to everyone . If someone like myself wants to ensure there is access, whats a better way to do it that provide some of that check you are talking about . Certainly there are opportunities to address the affordability barriers that exist for so many but there are other issues that do need to be addressed. Some of that is simply about increasing the focus on the student and how do you address access to things like the digital divide and leveraging technology to reach students where they are . How do you actually incentivize post secondary program so that in facts there are pathways to great jobs and federal aid programs. They can be on a lower cost and a short iteration than a traditional bachelor degree model. We also have to think of pedagogical learning models that can increase completion rates especially among underserved populations are those who have been marginalized. Thats what we are trying to find fund here completion rates which has been mentioned many times a student who starts and doesnt complete is worse off because they carry debt. When i like about you was competency based rather than just measuring success based on the amount of times sitting in a seat its composite based education. And we often talk about transparency. The more information we can get out about the job outcomes and so on, of not only specific colleges but other majors, or specific majors i should say, thats gonna help students make the right decisions for them. I am out of town im. I have a lot more questions, but thank you so much i appreciate it. Thank you. Good job in questioning. I dont agree with everything you said but thats an important. You brought us great questions. We need an elaboration when you said im telling you, you hit some very important questions that we need to discuss in our own heads. A lot of these College President s want to bring and build taj mahals big buildings out in the suburbs. They then want there to be no campus or green and you are just there. There is a job being done in both places no question about it and i thank you for your testimony and i think also the witnesses who have a lot of things to say and whether i agree is not important i want to call on for five minutes. Thank you Mister Chairman, to the ranking member as well for the very important hearing on expanding access to post secondary education in the promise it holds. I want to appreciate our witnesses for their great insight and testimonies in fact, western Governors University i actually when i was in the State Senate worked with the then governor to make sure nevada was part of that effort. I believe in an all above approach to post secondary education. Before i came to congress, around the states largest joint for the Hospitality Industry so i have seen firsthand just how training, education, and opportunities for youth and adults is critically important particularly as we address our competitiveness for the 21st century. I also want to ask about the ways that we can achieve racial equity within our post secondary Education Institutions. For all institutions, but Community Colleges and four year colleges specifically. As one of the cochairs for the ways and means racial Equity Initiative, we have been looking at educational equity which is a particular focus. Professor, doctor anthony, you highlight in your article in april that black and latinx youth adults experience the most dramatic growth in attainment, but they also started off with the lowest Skill Attainment rates compared with other racial ethnic groups and that they remain the least likely to earn a College Degree. Moreover, the attainment rates among black and latin exmen are even lower. You see that these alarming equity gaps in attainment exist because of structural inequities in our society, including in the Education System, which consistently fails to serve black and latin exadults. Mister anthony, as i mentioned earlier, ive worked on the racial Equity Initiative and we have been tasked with addressing these initiatives especially within the Tax Code to create a more just Tax System that is equitable for everyone. What are your recommendations for how we can address this issue within our Education System . Thank you for your questioning congressman. Yes, i also want to bring up another point that was in this point and to point out how deep the aim equities are rooted. Among young adults ages 25 to 34, we are about 7. 5 million young college students who go to college but did not complete. If we were to reengage all of those students, about two thirds of the young adult population would be college educated, which would be an amazing accomplishment for the country. There would still be disparities though about Race And Gender as well. Thats how deep they are. When it comes to the Tax Code, my broad response is saying, and its been brought up before, the federal Tax Code must be aggressive, and therefore it can actually benefit lower income, middle income, families, who need the services and benefit the most. Ax cuts rightright now, with thf the tax cuts and incentives, its regressive. We provide additional services to hire who cant afford to go to college anyway. The goal of lyndon b. Johnson is to actually expand education for low income, middle income families, because it helps the country there. There is an economic return on education for higher education, we have to ensure we have targeted approaches by race, income, Disability Status where we can ensure that we are actually targeting those services that help those students and families the most. Right now, we just dont have it we dont have a networks in the purpose of fulfilling what Prison Johnson propose for in the sixties. Thank you Mister Anthony, i look forward to working with you and our other panelists to identify for the recommendations and i particularly agree with the point that you and others have made around the federal Student Aid lack of support and the fact that that has not kept up to wish in rates having increased but the level of financial aid to middle class families has not. People should not have to go into debt at the amounts that they are in order to pursue an education for themselves and their family and that is something i believe we need to address, Mister Chairman, and with that i yield back. Sure, thank you for your questions, and thank you Mister Anthony doctor anthony, for joining in. Its something we should all be thinking about as we move forward in these manners. I think this is a very good example that anthony brought up and we should constantly concentrate on that and in connection with the last thing we talked about. Thank you mr. Horsford of nevada now we have mr. Schneider from illinois. Five minutes. Thank you Mister Chairman. Thank you for hosting this series thank you to our nation but i will thank the witnesses for sharing their testimony and perspective here on the barriers of higher education how it works and to make education more affordable to every american as we discussed, the cost of higher education in his 38,000 dollars in debt. Its the highest concentration that belongs to young adults between the ages of 25 and 34. I regularly here from students in the prime of their life and with a goal of starting their own business and it is stalled because of the crippling that they turned on in pursuit of their education i spoke to a mother of three who struggle to afford her family medical expenses while paying off that you acquired from going to college. More than a decade of paying off, young people spired more debt financially because of covid19. Im grateful for the opportunity to address these issues as part of the ways we need to tackle the Student Loan Crisis to make things more affordable we need to understand what young people these days have faced. Who knew opening testimony, doctor anthony, you said if you think students can work the way through college think again. Ive heard it from so many young people in my community. I know when i was in school a long time ago, people could work a ten Hour Work Job and graduate with no debt. Can you talk about more the hidden cost of being a Student Today aside from what we often think of and the rising cost of tuition and the burden of a person to excel and go beyond and be there late at night wondering how to make ends meet affecting ability of our young people. Thank you for your question congressman. Yes, so, i want to also put that point into context in the written testimony that the reason why working is not an issue, we want to be careful was to tense having to work too much. The amount left, over the net price after Students Cost of attendance, and then when you account for federal aid, students have to make for that gap either by working or taking out student loans. Studies show that after working about 15 hours per week it can slow Students Progress towards a degree and cause them to leave college altogether. We already talked extensively about getting a College Degree, and we need to ensure we are building a system where there is a reasonable amount of ours that students can work in order for it to be a benefit to their educational experience and not a hindrance. We have students right now who are happy to do not just one job multiple jobs because the demographic is changing. Nearly 60 of the undergraduate population on what some consider post traditional nontraditional students, juggling both call into Work And Family responsibilities. They have to make that up some hell. The way that we can ensure we are benefiting the students is to direct more aid so they dont have to worry about having to work too much or take it more loans in that this committee has the opportunity to benefit a Tax Code that will be more progressive so we can get direct aid more into the hands of students so that they dont have to rely on working too much. I appreciate that, i was an adviser when i was in college it was a big job but i didnt have the other family responsibilities as you touched on and the nontraditional student, 15 16 hours, thats two days a week while trying to go to school fulltime, that is a burden. Im curious Doctor Dynarski would euro briefly. You talked in your Opening Statement about the complexity of just putting together the whole package of Student Aid and figuring out the taxes and everything else. Can you expand more on the simplicity. One thing i appreciate is if we can make it straightforward it i decided i want to pursue higher education and i can do it. Do it in a straightforward manner than im more likely to achieve my goals, so what would you recommend as far as simplicity . The key principles we need in place are that students know with certainty well in advance, that college is going to be affordable. Its okay if its complicated on our side, the government side, in terms of budget and how things run, but what matters is for the students and families themselves, in needs to be straightforward and simple. The university of michigan introduced a radically simplified approach for selective low income students. They were promised up front, no strings attached. That they would get four years of free to obtain fees. They dont need to fill out the profile, they got in and were gonna get free tuition fees. When we told students, this is tripled the application rates and it doubled the share of low income students who chose to attend university of michigan. This is pretty straightforward. We right now hide a lot of money behind a lot of forms, we delay information about how affordable college can be, and if we instead shift the information forward, and guarantee students that they are gonna have their tuitionfrees covered, we will have a much larger effect than we do even if we use the same, dollars. For Community Colleges, most simple way is to make tuitionfree. I dont think anybody should be borrowing to go to Community College. Right now we have put people in a bind where they either need to borrell, or they need to work more. Working more puts them at greater risk of dropping out, while borrowing puts them at greater risk, if they drop out. It shouldnt be a dangerous gamble to go to college. But we have made it that, and its time to go back to a time when it was more doable to do so. Thank you mister snot snyder. I yield back. Thank you for your questions. In the professor thank you for jumping in with us. Now im gonna go to miss plastic its, here for us. Thank you Mister Chairman. Thank you for convening such an important and dynamic hearing where we are getting tremendous information thats really gonna inform this committee on how to support higher education in young people in a roaring Community College. This is a question specifically for dr. Susan johnston, but for all of the panelists. I just learned from my district, the university of the Virginia Line lands which is the only higher Education Institution in the virgin, islands in my district, has implemented a Covid19 Vaccine Requirement for all students, Faculty And Staff. I learned that over 360 republican private colleges are requiring vaccination prior to enrollment. And its called are returning to orange school instruction, how is this affecting enrollment for the fall semester, and how is the administration confirming this compliance at this time . Thank you for that question. As i was listening to you, i was thinking of my own service as the member of the board of trustees public and private colleges and these are topics that came before us in conversation. It is a concern that students be safe and healthy, that Faculty And Staff be safe and healthy, and yet, there is some political discussion behind the requirement. Thats why you see the numbers you see around 400 which are requiring, and the yet rest, have yet to make up their mind and they are not following into that category. It does make this a challenging environment to lead an institution when you hear from parents. If you have this requirement they say, i will not send my daughter. If you dont have this requirement, i wont send my daughter. If you do, if you dont in a lot of cases. The highest order of business is to make sure students are safe. I think the leadership that institutions show by finding a way to ensure that safety, whether it is continuing that testing overtime as students come back if there is no covid requirement, and continue the testing. That continues rather high cost for an institution. However, we knew during the pandemic that institutions were spending lots and lots of money on the safety measures they had to put in place. It is a complicated question that each institution is weighing, but i think regardless of the answer, part of the matter is the safety of the students and the other people who work on campus and finding a way to manage the cost associated with continued testing, versus the health issues. Actually vaccination requirements especially with those with limited vaccine supplies. Another question i have. Requiring vaccination in areas where there are no easy ways to get the vaccination seems problematic. I know a lot of colleges are using their facilities, their connections, and their own resources and government resources to make sure they get access to their required vaccinations. You know, i think another problem with this is making sure we are not on Emergency Approval for some of the vaccinations. That has been a problem for some institutions and parents. Yes, Mister Chairman i have heard that repeatedly in my own community and there is a rational Right Or Wrong as to why people are not getting the vaccine. The Push Fda and get to a place where its no longer an Emergency Approval i think it would go a long way dispelling some of the myths and mentions of conspiracy theories that are out there. Thank you so much for the opportunity. Thank you for the panelists and their time and i yield back. Congresswoman plank it, thank you for your participation today. I want to say this its pretty remarkable about the antonyms we have had today that people come on outside of our community and that is a good sign. Great issue. If its affecting my sleep time educational Guard Drug and there are no victories here. Weve got to get together to make this work and has an important effect on peoples lives and we see it time and time again we are talking about covid so how can you not talk about education . Thats just the beginning of the discussion are next questioner is doctor davis. Mr. Davies is always there on educational matters and we are thankful he is here today. Mr. Davis you have five minutes. Thank you Mister Chairman, you are exactly correct in your analysis of this experiment, its been a great one. I want to thank you for letting me go on to it. I have spent decades trying to help lowincome students import college. The american Tax Credit and it was some of my first deals on this community when i came. I am working closely with horse trust, one storm, and margin to remove the lifetime ban on the american Opportunity Tax Credit for individuals with Government Drug convictions. Mr. Smith, from missouri, and i, have tried to go to the section 1 27 of provided Education Benefit to help those there improve their situation. Families, lower education students need us to recognize these benefits. Professor dynarski, let me ask you my ideal of hiring a tax policy, it aligns with your testimony. A super sad amount of times based on what income that one could use forcredentials. Current costs of student loan debt, taxpayers would know how much they had and decide when to use the funds to best meet their education needs. If we were to advance this type of approach, aside from being advanced double, refundable, and have an eligible expenses aligned with other tax policy, what type of parameters would be needed to make sure that a credit would work, that it did work . There are lots of different ways to design an effective and equitable system for funding college. Your suggested policy certainly aligns with the research. A key for making any Program Work really well is that students need to be guaranteed their money early, and they shouldnt have to wade bureaucratic sludge to get hold of that money. The Tax Incentives clearly do not meet these standards. The traditional Student Aid programs are getting better, especially with the recent simplification. I thank you for that. When we have got two sets of programs together funding college, the Tax System, as well as the traditional aid system, we need to be extremely vigilant about unintended collisions between the programs. I dont know if its Anybodys Job to watch out for those because basically every time something changes in the Tax Code or changes on the Aide Side Aid side, you potentially create bad collisions of those two programs. The examples we have already heard are that the Pell Grants, getting a Pell Grant means that the aotc gets reduced. If we are going to have multiple programs, somebody needs to be out there keeping track of how they interact so that students dont get hurt by it. Thats what i would say is most important. That and that the money get delivered when students are paying the bills. Delivering the money a year later does not help anybody get to college. Thank you. Rep. Davis thank you so much. Dr. Johnston, if i could ask you, in addition to helping students directly, i am also trying to create a Tax Incentive for colleges and universities to graduate more low income students with little debt to some clement to supplement, not supplant, discretionary programs. This is tricky because nonprofits cannot have tax liability. I thought about an institutional Education Tax credit similar to the New Market Tax Credit that graduated low income students with little debt. You raised a different, intriguing point, and that is that colleges really like [indiscernible] with good terms. Would it be good incentive to help colleges graduate low income students with little debt . Dr. Johnston thank you for that question. The i think overall, let me just say again that the Pell Grant is the most efficient way for the federal government to invest in students, but a Tax Credit related to the investments that institutions are making in Grant Aid is an intriguing idea, one that should be explored further. I think there is possibility for that. , one thing as youve noted, is that colleges are often taxexempt and will have varying tax liabilities. Some may have unrelated Tax Income that could make such a Tax Credit of interest to them. I encourage you to pursue that idea. Rep. Davis thank you very much. And again, mr. Chairman, it has been a great hearing. Thank you for letting me wave on, and i think everybody wanted to wave on because you have such great hearings. I have been on everyone i think you have had and i am not a member of your committee. We are going to get even more exciting as we go on. This is a gray issue and you have been a great advocate. I just want to recommend or suggest, congressman davis, that you look at my thoughts about baby bonds and connecting this together with what your ideas are. I think we can get our we can get others to look at it as well. I think it makes a lot of sense. It struck me when you are talking. But thank you for your tremendous work that you did in education before this and thank you for your comments. I appreciate them very, very much. Rep. Davis thank you. You are welcome. The chairman recognizes the gentleman from michigan for five minutes. Thank you, chairman. I share mr. Davis views. This is a very critical hearing. I appreciate you allowing us to wave on. Weve got nearly the entire ways and means committee participating, so thank you for that. My first real job in life was that is was as a social worker. I worked at a Treatment Agency for children who have experienced trauma and abuse, the Childrens Center in flint, my hometown. Many of those children came from and left into the foster Care System. This issue around foster kids is really near and dear to my heart, so i want to focus a bit of my attention on the higher education opportunities made available to foster youth. In our economy, as we have wellestablished, some post secondary education, either Apprenticeship Program or an associates degree or a fouryear program, one of those is important and potentially essential to getting a good paying job. But there are some unique variants that youth from the foster Care System face when pursuing postsecondary education. Those barriers have been made worse during this pandemic. What we have seen is that institutions of higher education with campusbased support programs for foster youth, it provides services like, for example, securing stable housing during academic breaks, or counseling services, have led to really significant improvement and performance, increased graduation. The university of michigan scholars program, which serves foster youth, has a Graduation Rate of over 95 . Not only is that much higher than the average foster youth, it is much higher for all students. In michigan, over 30 college campuses provide this onsite support and resources tailored to meet unique needs of youth with experience in foster care who are attending college. Thats why i introduced legislation with my colleague, representative bacon, called the fostering post secondary success for foster and homeless youth act. It would expand these programs across the country. First, this bill would create Recognition Program through the u. S. Department of education to identify and to highlight those colleges and universities with tailored, campusbased support programs for foster youth, homeless youth. Secondly, the bill would create a national center for fostering post secondary success for foster and homeless youth. This would put the best practices out there and provide technical help to institutions as they try to maintain this campusbased support. You might be surprised since i mentioned the university of michigan, one of my schools. I would love to get your thoughts on it. How we can use federal Tax Code to help foster Youth Access and succeed in college, and then any other thoughts you might have on how we can help clear pathways for foster youth. I would say that the most important priority would be funding the schools that these students attend. So, michigan is able to run a program like this because it has got the endowment that lets it run it. A lot of our other public institutions are living off of tuition, and they have seen their contributions from their state go down. What tends to get cut his support services. If we want to support foster children, we should be looking to support the schools that low income students attend. Those are Community Colleges and public universities. We have models for programs that work well in increasing Graduation Rates for atrisk populations. There is a Wraparound Program that provides financial support, mentoring, tutoring, emergency financial backup, all of these things that a parent, if they were well heeled and present, wouldnt do for their kids. The school kicks in and helps would do for their kids. The school kicks in and helps. For those that dont have family that went to college, then the institution needs to be doing the work that otherwise parents would be doing, the informal counseling that happens around the Kitchen Table sometimes needs to be formalized for a foster child, for example. I really appreciate those comments and i see the other panelists nodding their heads. I wish we had time to explore this further but i do look forward to my legislation moving further. I would invite any of you to provide input on the work that we are doing, that Congressman Bacon and i are doing, to try to stand up these programs. Thank you, mr. Chairman, for what has been just an excellent hearing. Thank you very much, mr. Kildee, and we appreciate your question. I think its very important and thank you. Come again. This is the Cleanup Hitter from california for five minutes. You are on. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I appreciate this opportunity to be a part of not only the oversight subcommittee, but be a part of this excellent hearing on expanding access to higher education. I truly appreciate it. Thanks to all of our witnesses as well. I appreciate this because obviously having access to higher education is important for a number of reasons. I kind of take it a little bit personal when we are talking about Community Colleges. I and my two older brothers were all products of Community Colleges. Basically coming out of high school, all three of us knew that we werent ready to go on to a fouryear, so we went to junior college, got straight, pivoted from athletics to academics, were able to pay our way to the colleges that we went to. They went to berkeley, i went to davis, the uc schools. I am a Firm Believer in Community Colleges. Traditionally, it was more of a state purview. I am so glad that the federal government is taking interest in our Community Colleges, especially this administration. Thats exactly why i joined members of congress recently who are also Community College graduates in writing to the first lady, dr. Jill biden, asking her to work with the administration and us to support Community Colleges and what we can. President rose, i am going to hit on you for a lot of my questions, if that is all right . President rose, how can the federal government better support Community Colleges like yours . Dr. Rose again, i think it really just comes down, we need a simple message that is affordable to students. When we are talking to students, it doesnt matter whether they are in sixth grade, 12th grade, they have to have a message that they can go to college. If they know that thats a possibility for them, they will start focusing on that. They will start taking the right courses. You heard earlier that the ratio of high School Guidance counselors to students is not good in most schools. We just, we cannot count on somebody else to deliver that message. It has got to be, you know, it is clear, you can go to college. If they get that message, we will get more of these students into college. I dont think its much more complicated. I agree. Trust me, i deliver that message each time i go speak at high schools or no matter who i talked to, i am proud to say i am a Community College graduate, and that it is accessible. As i see it, its a real foundation upon which you can do a number of things. In what ways does the in which ways, president rose, does it support nontraditional students . You understand, the stereotype of traditional students going away to college. In what ways are Community Colleges more accessible for those who were, have families to take care of . That is basically all of our students. You can be 18 years old, it does not mean you are a traditional student. 20 of our Students Arsenal parents are single parents. You have to train your faculty to work with different types of students. They have to be more flexible and understand if students are working a fulltime job, they will get called into overtime and have things. Faculty members cannot say they have a strict policy on the syllabus that says if you miss two classes, you fail the class. For the first time, we have hired social workers in addition to our counseling staff. A social worker approaches things from a very different point of view then does a counselor. Students have problems with homelessness, they have issues. If we have someone on staff who can help them, it will make all the difference in the world. You also said that Community Colleges serve a lot of minority students, along with many who english is a second language. For those students, esl programs like others in the district, like the college i went to, i have to give them a shout out. The esl programs can help them perfect there english and help them in other opportunities. How are Community Colleges uniquely equipped to help those types of students speak english as a second language . We have programs. We are in the communities. A congressman was a trustee in our college when it was first founded. He thought to have the college put in the middle of our downtown area. By putting in the middle of our downtown area, his argument was that this is where it needs to be serve to serve the student to needed the most. Those are students who had limited english proficiency. If you put it where they live, they will more likely come to take advantage. My time is up. Thank you everybody, Pinky President rose, thank you chairman having the opportunity thank you president rose, thank you chairman for having the opportunity. You are proud of it and we are proud of you. Thank you for your interpretation of what we are doing today. Thank you rose for your answers. I want to thank dr. Anthony, dr. Johnson, dr. Rose, a doctor whose name i have a difficult time with, and another doctor. Thank you all. What an excellent panel. Lets clap and give them a great round of applause. They did a great job. They did in excellent job. I would like to think our annua. Good morning, good Afternoon And Welcome to everyone. Thank you for joining us today. Were holding this hearing virtually in compliance with the regulations for remote committee proceedings pursuant to House Resolution eight. I want to nd