In the year 2000 published in the heart of the Sea Book about the Essex Tragedy which won the national Book Award in 2000 for nonfiction since then hes gone on to write quite a number of of books. Very good book about the us exploring expedition looking at mayflower whole variety of other other interesting topics branching off from sort of nantucket. This is a sort of Sea Base for for all of the History Work that that nats done. But we are thrilled that everybody can join us this evening this story of the Essex Tragedy is a sort of near and dear story to nantucket and Nantuckets Identity as a historic Whaling Port and this Organization And Nantucket Whaling Museum is a unique place to be able to tell this story. You know, we preserve the history of nantucket for the people of nantucket and we have lots of collections related to this story and its sort of in our bones as it were so we are really thrilled to be able to have all of you join us this evening for our conversation about about the essex youre here. I second that and mike its really great to be in conversation with you. Its theres no one who knows Nan Tucket history like you do well. Thank you. So the basic thing, you know, were here to tell to talk about the essex and i suppose the the question of the evening we should start with. Case anybody whos joining us may not know. What are the basic Things Everybody should know about the Essex Tragedy . Yeah, well the essex left nantucket in the summer of 1819, you know, just the year after the pacific national bank was built. She was a typical Whale Ship about 20 years old not in great repair. She had a first time Captain George Pollard Jr. First Mate Owen Chase 21 men. The Cabin Boy was Thomas Nickerson and they departed and headed for the pacific. It was a normal wailing voyage not a very successful one as they made their way around Cape Horn up the west coast of South America and they decided to venture out farther into the pacific than the essex had ever been before to the offshore grounds, and they were after a stop at the galap. 3,000 miles from the coast of South America when they cited a huge whale 85 feet long, this is a huge whale if you know the huge jaw here at the Whaling Museum that reputedly came from an 85 Foot Whale just massive particularly when you realize the ship was 85 feet long well, one of the Whale Boats was was in was damaged and so first made Owen Chase. Well drag that boat up onto the deck of the Whale Ship essex was repairing it. Well the other two Whale Boats were off pursuing whales. Cabin boy Thomas Nickerson all of 15 years old was at the helm steering. When this huge 85Foot Whale appeared to the to this on this their starboard on their port side, they didnt think much of it because never before in the history of american wailing had a whale attacked a ship. But this whale had a different intention i began to pick up speed slammed into the side of the ship knocked the men to their sides would come back at it again drive the ship backwards crush the bow like an eggshell the ship would not sink, but it would fill up with water the men would take to their Whale Boats they all gathered. And Pollard Captain Pollard would eventually arrive and say to mr. Chase because they were over the horizon. They hadnt seen all what happened. Lets say to to chase mr. Chase. What is the matter . These were men of few words chase. Simply said we have been stove by a whale. Now many of us have if you havent dont know about the essex, youve probably familiar with moby this would inspire the climax of that great american novel. But where moby ends is just the beginning of the Essex Disaster it would turn into a Survival Tale like none other. Fearful of rumors of cannibals in the islands to the west in the pacific that they they decided to go for South America 3,000 miles away. You know impossible voyage in the great irony. They would be forced to Survival Cannibalism. Eventually only two of the three Whale Boats would be cited by Rescue Craft five. Nantucketers would get out of those Whale Boats alive three others were left on Henderson Island. And when news came to nantucket and eventually the rest of the country this was big news, you know, this is before the american west had become the predominant wilderness that incited the american imagination. The sea was the wilderness. This was the donner party, you know before that all unfolded Owen Chase would write an account of it. Probably ghost written that would become renowned around the country and the world this was big news. And so the essay this was a tale that nantucketers were not particularly proud of because it was a voyage that went bad, but it was a story full of all sorts of fascination for for those outside america nantucket. And so, you know, this was a story i realized i needed to write about yeah, and theres some interesting interesting things in this disaster that come to mind as youre as youre retelling it. Um, you know on the one hand this this part of the pacific that they were wailing in the offshore ground had only been discovered by american whalers a year or two before as being a place rich with whales and so this wasnt really a part of the ocean that the crew of the essex or many of their nantucket. Brethren had been to the new very well, they were sort of more comfortable on the coast of South America. But there was money to be made and they they ventured out and so the one hand. They they were sort of in the unknown taking a risk. But then here they are cast into their boats with their shipwrecked. And imagine us being cast into a boat in the middle of the pacific. I dont know how youre youre a reputable sailor you you might be able to do some really great stuff. Yeah, i would be like at my wits and i but im with you but here are professional sailors who are able to salvage things from the wreck. Theyre able to rig their rowing boats to sail. Theyre actually able they have all these professional skills. They bring to bear. To actually save themselves. And the great Irony Or Tragedy of this either way is that theyre outmatched by the circumstance. They they make a decision not to go to the nearest islands because they have heard their accountables there again a reflection perhaps of maybe something slightly provincial about nantucket or limitation in their knowledge. Maybe maybe not, you know, but they know South America, theyre gonna go to South America. And so thats where they go and it just happens to be that sailing against the prevailing winds for 3,000 miles in boats that dont have center boards and not enough enough Water And Food is doesnt work very well. Um, so well, you know what . I i thought long and hard in my and and tried to examine it in my research. You know, how did they do this . What were they thinking and you know, its this is a story of survival and when youre in a survival situation, its your fears that drive you its very hard to think rationally. And the fears they all had were the unknown pacific. This was very early in pacific whaling, you know, the only thing they knew about these islands were rumors of cannibals. And you know, the nantucketers were very adventurism. They had taken it farther than anyone else when it came to the exploration of the world, but theyre also very conservative. They built their knowledge incrementally. And unless they could hear it from someone they knew they didnt trust that information. And so the one thing they did know was the Sea Whale boats and whaleships and and so when forced to it they did they just as you described, you know, heres a Whale Boat Right here. This boats from a later era. Its much a larger than the Essex Whale boats were which were only 25 25 feet long and they built up their sides so that a Wave Wouldnt necessarily flooded they these boats were not yet equipped with sales, but they rigged up their own sales two little masks. They turned them into schooners. And and off they went finally falling into the only thing they knew to get back to a civilized coast. And so for me the story of of the essex is is a tale of human survival. But as you alluded to now these guys had tremendous skills, but ultimately it would be nature that would call the shots and what they would endure in the in the weeks and even months ahead. Yeah, absolutely and you know, the the irony that we see in the story now as modern observers of they dont want to go to certain islands because theyre afraid of cannibalism, but then they end up having to resort to cannibalism in the boats. I mean theyre in these boats for three months three months in an open boat. Yeah. I mean thats an entire summer. Yeah, right and youre at sea and you know, they had in the galapagos islands they had at that point in the history of whaling its common round up galapagos tourism. A huge creatures that could get over a hundred pounds and store them like wood stacks of wood in the hole. And they would because and these galapagos tortoises could live for months even as long as a year without any Food And Water and provide the crew with wonderful meat. And so when this whale attacked their ship they had all these galapagos tortoises and so they put two of those tortoises and in each Whale Boat they had some bread some water and that was the key thing. They didnt have a lot of water and off they went. You know, i i for me the closest i could get to to sort of getting my head imaginatively around what they were going through was to think in terms of science fiction. I mean, you know, this is like a spaceship thats blown up and youre youre in your Escape Pod in the middle of the universe. I mean the pacific was space for them really and you know and here they are out there just doing their best try to get back home. Yeah, and and hoping you know, they know that there are other ships out there british ships american ships and nantucket ships. Theyre hoping maybe theyll pass one. But imagine, you know sailing through an area of the size of texas hoping youre going to pass, you one of the 60 70 other wheel ships that are out there and locker or not luck they didnt pass. Yeah, they felt that if everything went right, you know if they the winds worked perfectly. They they might be able to get to the coast of South America in a month and a half and theyre their provisions would last that. But of course not everything would go wrong. Like you said, you know, they were always hopeful that someone would discover them that didnt happen. They they began to run out of water. They were dying of dehydration when they cite an island an island. They were not aware of they they misnamed it called it duchy island. It was actually Henderson Island. You know, you cant make the stuff up and so, you know just as theyre on the verge of death, they cite this Island Sail up to it. And theres no water. They cant find any water until luckily. Its its a spring high and low tide. And at dead low tide bubbling from a rock thats usually submerged is fresh water. You know, this is positively biblical right and and this saves for now and you know and and but they would realize that you know, and this is almost a metaphor or the human race on this planet because within just a couple of days a couple of weeks, they realize theyre killing off all of the wildlife that they could sustain themselves the birds and if they stayed for any length of time they would ultimately star, you know, so they decide we got to push on and its then where three men not nantucketers a couple of them from Cape Cod one was an englishman decide realized you know, this is an ingrown group of nantucketers. Good luck to you boys. Were gonna stay on dry land and and so they would stay. And you know, very emotional parting. And ultimately they would be rescued because the survivors would send a Rescue Ship there but in you know another great irony. It turned out that that rock. Where from which Boat Water would bubble up . Would as the tide moved on from Spring Low would never again come above the tideline and so they began to die if dehydration. And so they would barely make it when they were they were on the verge of death when they were rescued. But you know, once again, its its a story of incredible human endurance full of all sorts of ins and outs and its a story that you know, really captures the imagination. And its interesting. I was asked once by somebody so so these people, you know a few of these people survive they go through this horrible or they come home. Whats the importance of this . Whats the lasting impact of of their their tragedy . You know, we think now of airplane disasters or any variety of modern modern calamities that bring about . You know changes in legislation and changes in safety the titanic disaster the very famous example of changing all kinds of rules and regulations. And so somebody asked me what did this do for whaling . Not much. I mean well nantucketers this had never happened before it seemed to them like, you know a just a random act as pollard would say Captain Pollard was say he would he would be given a ship and depart within months of his return to nantucket clearly. No one, you know faulted him or anyone else in the crew, but as he would say to an young naval officer he met along the west coast of South America. Um that you know, because the naval officer said he had just read the story of the essex like so many americans and he said youre not Captain Pollard of the essex. They said yes, i am. He said how could you ever out there again . Pollard would say well on nantucket. We have a saying lightning never strikes twice. For pollard it would you know off hawaii in a storm they would fetch up on french frigate shows the ship would be beaten to death on the coral. They would take to their Whale Boats that was said Thomas Nickerson that Cabin Boy was with him when this happened and would leave an account of it. He said they had to drag pollard off the deck. He did not want to get back into a Whale Boat under these circumstances. Luckily. They would be rescued the next day, but as pollard would say to a missionary who he would meet on his return to nantucket, you know, all places, you know, the pacific islands tahiti one of the places they had decided not to go to because of fear of cannibals. He would say to the missionary back home. I will be judged in a lucky man. And yes that was right. He would never go to see again and live out his life as a night. Yeah. Its interesting. Youve mentioned a Couple Youve alluded to a couple of the sort of written sources for this story. Um, you know, and you know as a historian wanting to tell these compelling stories from the past, we rely on the evidence that that exists for it. I think its really interesting in this case that there are two really compelling firsthand accounts by two of the survivors and then there are a variety of these sort of secondhand accounts where like the the missionary who met Captain Pollard then wrote down what he remembered pollard saying and naval officers doing the same thing. I would love to hear a little bit about you know, sort of your encounter when you when you were on nantucket before you wrote the book with these sources that then inspired actually like. Looking more closely at this and writing about it anew. Yeah, well you know, i i when i look back i didnt know how lucky i was to be living on nantucket where you had not only this wonderful Whaling Museum and research center, which has Thomas Nickersons account which he wrote late in life, which had just been really newly discovered when i took up the story, you know, its just an extraordinary document. Its its a a its the the kind of you know book you get at a at a stationary store today, you know where he had written out his account of it and even done a wonderful drawings of the event, you know, so the whole that in your hand is extraordinary, but theres also the athenium which has its own great archive. The newspapers had just been recently microwave microwave, right . Theres the Town Building but one of the i have to say one of the resources the historical you guys had was the genealogy had just gone online and so it was possible now really for the first time to take two people and figure out how closely they were related and i was very curious how close really related were the nantucketers and so i i did that with each one, you know. Figure it out how they were all and they were all related, you know over and over again and and you know and survival situations. Its people who its groups of people that have a preexisting bond whether its spiritual whether its cultural that tend to make it out at a higher rate than those who dont have those kinds of bonds, and so that you know that probably helped the fact that there were only five minutes or nantucket survivors from the Whale Boats at the end and but they you know, the other thing i i went to Mystic Seaport and spent time in the charles morgan the last remaining a american wooden Whale Ship spent a lot of time folksel channeling what what it was would have been when a whale attacked. Um and and went to the kendall Whaling Museum which then had its own wonderful collection. Thats now a part the new bedford Whaling Museum another key source, and so all of these provided, you know history is, you know, History Isnt what happened in the past. Its what its what we tell using the evidence of what came from the past. You know, youre never you dont know everything about what happened you just have these these artifacts from the past whether its a Journal Letter a Newspaper Account all of these kinds of things and you take that all together, you know, there was even crueless here that that the nha had all sorts of this stuff take this all together and its the Historians Job then to try to tell the story as best you can being truthful to what historical accounts you have. And and inevitably they disagree in some instances between Chase And Nickerson that that happened and then you have to make the Judgment Call to believe. Yeah. Its interesting because we you know the nantucket historical association holds. You know quite a few of these things that you work from and you know in 2015 a Film Version of your book came out the big hollywood treatment. Yeah inspired by i might put it that way inspired by your book and so here at the nha. We took that opportunity to sort of reassess the Essex Tragedy and do an exhibit about it and and look anew it some of these artifacts and some of these things and bring them out and put them on display and it was one of the first projects i worked on here at the association and you know this were gonna do a show about the essex with all of our stuff about the essex and so well okay. Lets see what we have in terms of artifacts. And as im fond of saying the entire historical association holds all the surviving artifacts from the Essex Disaster. Both of them because when you look at it when you look at, you know, one way of looking at it things that are actually from the ship. Theres basically one. You know and its its this piece of twine. Oh, its the most heartbreaking artifact. Totally totally you want to describe the twine for us. Yeah. This is a Crew Member and its its just this little framed piece of twine. Where a one of the Crew Members in the Whale Boats would take the fibers from the sails from his clothing and create weave a piece of twine. And you often see this Behavior And Survival situations where you know so much time is passing. Youre terrified all the time. What do you do under these circumstances to just stay sane you find some you take up the equivalent of a hobby and in this instance. This young teenager was creating this piece of twine and when he was pulled out of the Whale Boats, he still had that piece of twine with him, which clearly was important enough to him and his family that it eventually ended up here. Do you remember when it yeah part of the collection it became part of the collection 1914 Benjamin Lawrence the crewman who made it kept it and then he gave it to alexander starbucks was a great historian of nantucket and and of nantucket whaling, i dont know all of the exactly when it was gifted, but it ended up with starbucks and starbucks gave it to the nha in 1914. And its its just as you describe. Its in this this little Ivory Frame with a card that says, you know that he was in the boat 93 days and this he made this piece of twine, you know, its very powerful artifact, you know, and theyre in these boats and they have this ship and they is left is this piece of twine . Yeah, very powerful and now obviously, you know nats already alluded to manuscripts. There are crew lists from previous voyages of the essex. Theres wharf books from other voyages of the ship that list the crew and have all the crew signatures. You know, theres a we own a the museum holds a Silver Ladle that was given to Daniel Russell the previous captain of the the essex at the end of the previous voyage which had been very successful. He was then given a new command a new ship and thats where pollard his former first mate stepped up. So the ship was regarded as as having greasy luck as being of yeah a good one to be aboard and we have artifacts that that reflect that you know, i think another thing that the association holds that kind of reflects the power of this kind of event in in the imagination. Is a trunk its a small Travel Trunk of the period. And it was fetched out of the sea. The story is that it was fetched out of the sea from near where the essex wrecked. And a man on one ship who had it. Sold it to man on another ship. With this is from the essex. And the man bought it and took it and held a deer and then he lived in ohio. He retired there his family was from there and in the 1890s after this organization was founded his family gave the trunk to the nha knowing the importance of the ethics to nantucket. And so this is from the essex. And its always been displayed as trunk from the essex. It doesnt have a single Water Stain on it. Good so is and they were in the boats for three months who know . You know, how would you know that you were near the spot . Where the essex sank . Nevertheless, right . Its its a its one of those oral traditions. Yeah, but hey, its an artifact. Its yeah, no and thats the ultimate thing about writing history is you begin to i mean, i i will always have a huge respect for you know, the tenuous this of the evidence and our ability to really understand what actually happened. Its you can only you know, its said that you know, those who dont know history will live to repeat it. Unfortunately, were all going to repeat history no matter how well you know it youre in the midst of your own time. Were all living in the fog of reality. Its terrifying now. We dont know where were going. Well, thats exactly the way it was with the crew of the essex or any time in the past. You know, the history is great. You can look back and say well this is where it was going and theres a tendency to think it was a simpler time and they knew what they were doing. No, its just we have the luxury of looking back when youre in the middle of it. You dont know and so, you know when things like a a trunk flowed into the collection. Yeah, you know who knows how its it all you know, they almost become an artifact of the cultural memory of the essex as much if even if its it may not have actually been Pollards Trunk or whomever and you know, and thats where you know, this institution is just so so important, you know, not only do you have the stuff that connects, you know with Razor Laser Directness to what happened you have, you know evidence of how an Island Culture responded to something like this and so its its endlessly fascinating and and something that you know the longer im in this business the more i begin to realize how lucky i was to let have lived on and live on nantucket to stumble onto the story and decide to tell it and have all this incredible organization. Well, thank you. Yeah, were were happy to have such great people come and use the resources and and make good, you know, do good storytelling out of it. So, you know, this is the 200th anniversary of this disaster. Its the 20th anniversary of your book about the disaster and i know youve been youve been speaking in a number of forums about the book and are there any sort of favorite stories from the process of of writing the book . Well, you know, lets see one of the you know, this was before the internet had really kicked in you know so that you know now you google something and and you know, you sort of get are led to it. But this was i was using a lot of interlibrary loan and to get not only books but art academic articles and and so i was working with the athenia, which is our local library and and so working very closely with sharon the Reference Librarian and you know, and she would recognize i was you know at requesting a lot of things and at one point she called to say that some articles had come in it was a saturday and my wife melissa said she was going to be in town. Shed pick them up. And so she you know went up to the the great hall to the Reference Desk and sharon looked worldly it worriedly in demoliss eyes and said is not. All right. And she said well hes you know, hes working hard but hes okay and then melissa went back to the car and just out of curiosity opened up the packet to see what was in it. And the first article was the the caloric value of cannibalism and yeah, you know so that analyzed in calories and nutrition what happens when you eat someone and so hence Sharons Concern and you know, but for me this was this was a research that that took in the whole island. Everyone was i mean there were interesting traded one of the traditions i had heard when i was beginning work on this. Everyone had said have you heard the tradition about what what happened to Captain Pollard when he came back to nantucket and the story was that pollard was with some friends on the steps of the pacific national bank. When someone from off island who had recently arrived on the ferry. And came up and said im looking for someone named Owen Coffin. Have you have you . You know where i can find it and ill Owen Coffin was what one of the people on the essex who didnt make it and pollard is reputedly said no why i hit him. The hows that for an oral tradition coming from nantucketers . And so, you know and this this is i have always had an interest in the dark side of history. Im not ive not so much interested in the great triumphs the inspired inspiration. Im really interested in kind of the the scary stuff that is it index to our you know, what happens to people on the toughest of times and so the the darkness of of the Essex Story had an immediate appeal, but what i didnt, you know, im a big stephen King Fan and and all that kind of thing, but i really didnt anticipate was how much i would identify with the Crew Members during the writing of in the heart of the sea and and what was amazing for me was actually once they got into the Whale Boats as i was writing it. They were in the Whale Boats sort of during the the winter of the january and february and that was the actual time of the year. I was writing. The book and i had sort of a fantasy that i would write, you know finish that part of the thing when they were, you know, just on the day that they were survived but what i didnt anticipate was how hard it was going to be to write about the situation where you know on pollards boat. Theres four of them left three of them teenage nantucketers. Theyre all they all know each other grown up with each other pollard is actually related to Owen Coffin and theyve come to the point where they know that if they do nothing. Theyll probably all die of starvation but in the custom of the sea if they draw lots and and then execute the person who got the short straw and consume his body. The rest will have a chance to live. You know, i cant i mean, can you imagine to be in that situation and and when pollard was rescued it would be pollard and a kidnate with the last name of ramsdell who would be found in their Whale Boat. Um, they were clutching the dead bones of their messmates. Thats how it was described. And pollard would you know come on to the deck of the Whale Ship that rescued them and that night. I dont know how he did it. He would tell the story of what happened and it was recorded by a Captain Paddock Nantucketter who listened to this. I mean, can you just imagine the drama of this man whos been at sea for three months, you know a living skeleton reciting how they drew lots and his much younger cousin drew the short Lot Pollard reputedly said, you know to my boy, no ones going to touch if you dont want to do this and the boy who had been raised a quaker said no, i like my lot as well as any other. And and so they would draw lots again to see who would execute the boy and he would be dispatched as they said and and ultimately would be the one one thing that would allow followed and rams doubt to survive. And so this is tough stuff and and it was a hard Process But One that i will you know, i feel just such an enormous debt to the island and those people whos who lived it and just hope that the book in some does a proper tribute to them. Yeah, its interesting you you mentioned, you know both spending time at the charles w morgan at Mystic Seaport, you know by being that that atmosphere but also then being on i mean Theres Nothing like being on nantucket in winter to you know, inspire lots of thoughts. In some ways. Its easy to see how melville grasp onto this. You know, melville is a young man goes wailing. Hes a you know, folksal hand. He reads chases account of the given the book to buy chases son right when they you know to hes channeling the gods here. Yeah, and yeah and and, you know, melville reads this and in his he through the Nantucket Network got a copy of Owen Chases narrative when he was working on moby. It was very rare by that point and is in in his own copy in the back of it would write you know on the same latitude is where the essex went down. I i read this and had a remarkable effect on me. You know, thats one of the biggest statements and literary history and but that wasnt his only connection. No. No, i mean he i mean he, you know gone whaling him. I mean melville was a Collector Collector of information a collector of Literature Collector of like ideas filtering it through and then bringing it out into his works and you know as a young man to go wailing read this in a folk soul. You know given to him by these family connections and then to let that sort of. Percolate during the intervening years. Yeah, its just remarkable. And then he writes moby , you know to my mind the greatest american novel ever written. Unfortunately, it was panned by the critics readers fled screaming from the strange book and it really marked the end in a way of his literary career. Although he would keep writing. And you know when i first moved to nantucket, i was really excited because i was going to the land of the pequot, you know, and it was kind of a letdown. I learned that melville had never visited nantucket before writing moby , but he would visit nantucket the summer after writing moby. Can you imagine this, you know, melville publishes his masterpiece, but its completely neglected Visits Nantucket traveling with his fatherinlaw. I love my fatherinlaw, but not necessarily the most auspicious way to go on a vacation. Ah and his was the the judge. And they stayed at whats now that jared Coffin House then the atlantic house. And living kitty cornered across the street was none other than Captain Pollard. And and as melville would write in the also right in the back of his copy of chases narrative and he would write in green crayon because by late in life his eyesight had begun to go and it is thought to have been a product of all those years out on on the sea his eyesight would go and he would write on the back of in the back pages of his copy of chases narrative sometime in the 1850s visited nantucket and saw Captain Pollard. To the islanders. He was a nobody but to me the most remarkable man, i have ever met. I mean if thats not a character reference, i dont know what is and i think melville, you know, who is there at the beginning of the tailspin of his career saw and pollard someone who had experienced the worst possible fate for an nantucket . Whaleman not once but twice in losing his ship. I think he saw in pollard a real kind of source of inspiration of how someone can survive. Was something when the worst happens melville would return to that meeting with pollard in a long poem. He would write about a called clarel in which recounts a trip to the holy land, but he recounts meeting a man who had lost a ship that had been rammed by a Whale And Meeting him in a fog and the tendrils of the Fog Wrapping around him like snakes and you know, its got to be based on the circumstance that he saw pollard and and so i think you know, the whats fascinating for me is yes, moby. Was inspired by the story of the essex particularly the sinking of the ship. But it would be the captain of the essex who would really become a lifelong sorts of inspiration for melville in the years after he he wrote moby. Yeah, and i think thats very powerful and that you know, we here at the nha in doing the history of the island, you know, we talk a lot about ships and harpoons and technology and but were really all about the people. You know, were about telling real stories from real people and and making their stories and their experiences come alive to the extent that we can and i think thats a great reminder of of the effort we put in put into doing that and and with pollard, i mean it reminds me of the story you were telling about you know, were on your Book Tour Right in 2000. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know in the heart of the sea came out in may of 2000 cant believe its 20 years ago more than 20 years ago and i went on this extensive Book Tour my first Book Tour. It was a strange experience and it was a wonderful experience but terrifying at the same time. And i was in st. Louis at left left bank books still there wonderful bookstore. And as i came into the bookstore, there was a gentleman with a grocery bag. Holding it clutching it. You looked at me as i walked by and i dont know, you know what was going on and i gave my talk. And then he came up to me afterwards and he said ive got something i want to show you. And before he opened up the bag he explained he had been on nantucket. Several years before and had come across a Yard Sale where there were books for sale. And there was this old bible for sale and you know, he bought it for a couple of bucks. And he brought it back to saint louis and then he was reading my book about the essex. The Captain Pollard and he said he looked back. He said wait. What was the name inside that that bible . He opened it up. It was the Pollard Family Bible. You know george Pollards Family and so he said, you know, i mean should i have this dont you think it should be somewhere else and i said, well, you know, i think the folks at the nantucket historical association would love to have it. And sure enough this wonderful gentleman sent it was in the mail that by that week. At that point there was an Essex Exhibit and within the week that the Pollard Family Bible was on exhibit at that exhibit. And so, you know for me this was like the power of history to sort of bubble up. Yeah, and you know what the ones once the book came out. I got a a card from the the Ramsdell Family in pittsburgh, i grew up in pittsburgh, you know maritime center the universe but and they were descended from the ramsdell on the essex. And and they said that they had an oral tradition in the family. That when it came to Grandpa Ramsdell and whenever he got whenever it was time for dinner. They all sat down right away and began eating because they all knew what happened when Grandpa Ramsdell got hungry. So another tradition that came down through the family. So i mean, so whats been fun when the book came out, you know, it was like, you know something that you know where you know this the story just kept on happening and and it was it was really wonderful. Yeah. Thats and we have the bible is in the collection and yeah, we had it in our 2015 show. Yeah, and by the way, your exhibit was terrific and that was it was so fun. You had a a game basically people. Could you take youd be one of the Crew Members right and youd find out what would happen to you . And i was talking to someone whos was at that point sitting a couple of four year olds and their twins and you know one got one character the other guy what the other character and one of the twins died was eating and the other survived and you know, it was just was a huge hit. So, thank you. And we we did for those in the audience who may not have had the chance to see it. We when we when we represented the story of the essex in 2015. We really sort of looked at. You know, what are the core ideas of this story. We really want our visitors to come away with and and that the story involves a journey. Was a key part of what we wanted to communicate. And that involved rio people again getting back to that, you know connection to real people in the past. And so we we built a Reproduction Boat of the right scale. Yeah that you could sit in. And read quotes, you know a projection of quotes as the disaster gets worse and worse and there was big mural of the ocean and then we did we had these this path on the floor that you could follow their journey, you know to the whale passed away all the boats split up all these people at Henderson Island and then these cards and at each of five or six places. Your card, which would say . Oh look i drew the card of of you know, charles ramsdell. Did he stay on Henderson Island . Oh, no, he didnt he wasnt one of those men did was you know, was he one of the first people any thats exactly what would happen is that you as the visitor could could see what what happened and of course many visitors which they rifle through the little cards. There were 20 men 20 cards. They would always be looking for Owen Chase george baller. Yeah, so those cards went really fast, but you could be you could get randomly any of them. But but yeah very much foregrounding. You know, that that sort of horrible journey and getting your mind around what that might have been like and then these were real people and the survivors came back and had a whole lives at sea actually and you know, we have artifacts from that and you know, some of the great art facts are the houses in which these people live. I mean, you know were living in a museum in many ways. And you know, i i live off of orange street and you know the Owen Chase house is is still there. The the knickers the house Thomas Nickerson was in what he was was then a Guest House Nantucketter is no longer hunted whales by this point they fished for tourists and and Thomas Nickerson had this guest house. Thats now part of its on North Water Street has is part of the harbor house complex. Theres the Pollard House there on center street, and you know, its just amazing. You can go to you know the cemetery and you know, theres all these the chase Owen Chase is grave is there and i had remarkable. Opportunity to take two of Owen Chases descendants as a Sister And Brother to Owen Chases grave even before the book came out and and they have his portrait. That is now. Hes on loan here. Yeah here and so you know, it it sort of brought home to me, you know. This is kind of a local story. You know, this is local history. In one sense for me, but one of the aims i had within the heart of the sea was to take what i had learned as local history in my book about nantucket away offshore and try to make it more universal to really focus on this as an Endurance Situation as you know, what happens to people in the worst of situations are i wanted to you know not make it just another Whaling Story but something where if you grew up and topeka, kansas and it never seen the sea, you might be drawn in to the human element and thats what it is. Its really the human element if we dont engage with history emotionally, it really ultimately means nothing to us. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, weve been talking now for about 50 minutes. We have questions that people have been submitting. I think maybe if youre sure that will segue. Lets go to well segway into that. And so the first question we have is actually somebody who noticed that you mentioned in your book that male whales bowls whales are sometimes referred to as carpenter fish. And from loud clangs that they make to announce themselves to potential mates and there is the story of you know, whether the hammering of repairing the damaged Whale Boat may have attracted the whale that that attacked the essex and so the person has has there been any research into whether it really was the Repair Work to the Whale Boat that led to the attack. Yeah. Well when i was researching the book i reached out to how whitehead who is one of the foremost. Whale experts on earth he and his wife and their small children took a sailboat. And basically sailed very simple close to where the essex went down with very hightech listening devices under the underwater listening to the they were really the first ones to develop a good sense of how whales communicate and you know, and its through this process of clicks and females have clicks males have more like a claim. Its like a Boom Kind of sound. And you know and clearly they have its a real language. I almost morris code like sequence of clicks. And so i asked i emailed how and said you know. You know explain to him as best i could from the evidence. What happened . What did he think the whale happen and he said, you know, who knows . He said, you know he had because he was very familiar obviously with following the whales he he would tended to think maybe the whale just sort of blundered into the ship by accident and then got angry right and came after it. You know, these are whales male whales are very territorial and so theyre like elephants male whales will attack each other and fight over the females and a pod of whales and and you know was who knows . I mean, its its ultimately no i have not heard at definitive. A you know explanation for what happened, you know unless we can find a descendant of that whale whos has the oral Traditions Grandad used to tell i dont think well well know that but its me and thats one of the great things about the story at the center of it. Is this question. What was the whale thinking you know chase. And looking at the whale attacking, you know coming at them. You know felt in his account feels like you know, theres something going on melville channels this, you know, theres some kind of malevolent Deity Or Something going, you know, what is going on there, you know, thats it made its way into moby you can only imagine but well never know and and i think thats what lends you know gives a history real legs where something of huge importance happens, but ultimately will never really really know what exactly happened. Yeah. Well that thats actually somewhat segways into one of the other which is about so we have these accounts that say what happened they drew they drew straws and pollards boats as certain men died. They resorted to campbell cannibalism and the question basically is how do we know . Theyre telling us the truth . Oh, thats the question. For when it comes to all evidence in history, and you know, the one thing when it comes to narratives, you know, your peoples accounts when it comes to letters theyre biased theyre the person telling their side of the story. So when it comes to chases account, its the narrative of an officer. Putting a voyage that went really really bad in the best possible light particularly when it comes to his involvement. Whats interesting about and usually as historian you want stuff that was recorded as close to the event as possible, you know when things are still hot before people have had a chance to think too much about them particularly if theyre thinking about their their own reputation. And thats whats really interesting about that that letter describing pollards first account. You know, its a disinterested person recording this. Coming right out of his mouth right after as soon as possible Nickersons Account was recorded late in life when a writer asked him to record his own account. And so thats suspect. You know, he but on the other side he had had the chance to talk to other survivors. You know get information that. Chase may not have had and also hes coming from a different perspective. He was 15. He was a Cabin Boy. He had no great professional stake in what happened and and yet, you know and so what he reveals are details about what happened during the initial collision that chase chose not to include that the whale after it first collided with the side of the ship. Ended up on the side of floating stunned knocked out beside the ship with its tail. Very close to the Rudder And Chase had the opportunity to pick up a killing lance, you know this 18foot Spear and motion. Just try to kill this whale that had dared to attack a ship, but then he realized the the tail was so close to the the rudder that if provoked this whale could take out the Steering Device and this would be disasters as as nickerson says if he new what was going to happen, he would have risked losing the Rudder But Chase makes no mention of this. Its interesting. And so, you know and that instance i tend to believe uh, you know nickerson on this, i dont think hes making that up and he had great respect for chase. He was in chases Whale Boat when they were finally rescued on the other Side Nickerson claims. They never had to eat anybody else, right . Yes that it was the bread that kept them through when chase provides clear evidence that you know, there was you know, they were reduced to Survival Cannibalism nickerson was an old man who didnt want to be remembered as a cannibal. And and so what you need to do is look at the various sources. Think about you know, how their point of view would have bent what they said. And and ultimately do your best to to figure out what happened on your own judgment and you know, thats why people need to return to these stories over and over again, and theres no such thing as a definitive account of any historical event particularly as we move through time and people are interested in different kinds of things, you know, we look back and are you know are tell it interested in telling the story in different ways. Yeah, and in fact one of the other questions here is asking about you know, other differences between chases and nickersons narratives because theyve written a different times and if you dont mind ill ill sort of address that you know, its its so fascinating to read Nickersons Account again written later in life. He clearly has chases account on his desk. And hes reading that and its a prompt to memory. And then he fills in other details or he chooses not to engage. Yes certain things that chase says that he you know again with the bread versus versus regarding cannibalism. But really what chase does is or what nickerson does is fill in all this detail from the perspective of the 15 year old boy instead of the perspective of the 20 some odd year old officer with a career still to do and you know, they they make a really interesting study that way in fact you the widely available. Anybody can can read these Sources Nickerson Journal is actually in our collection and is digitized and is available through our website. So anybody who wants to read it . Yeah, and its highly readable. Yeah really is its a nice script and and the the images are just amazing and and you know and just think that must have been a pretty traumatic process for nickerson to relive this thing and you know and record it and write it all out and and you know, which makes makes it an interesting process. Yeah in any event. Yeah another question that weve had is asking about the island that they or that they stopped at for the week on their voyage. You know if they didnt know the name of the island or they were on the wrong island had the rescuers nowhere to get them and i think do you want me to answer that one, or do you want to talk to that one . Yeah, you take it away. Yeah, because they they get to this island. And they use what navigational equipment they have to take a you know, figure out where they are. And they open their copy of about itch bowditchs new american practical navigator. Its the the bible for for narrate for for and they look up. And it says theyre at duceys or however the name of the island. Yeah, the right do sees island. And so thats where they think they are. And so when the three men stay behind and everybody else goes on when Pollard And Everyone else are picked up. They they hire a british vessel thats headed across the pacific. They pay them a fee to stop at Duceys Island and pick up these three men. And so that the captain of that vessels again. I can find that i know where that is. Ill go ill go get them these sales out and theres nobody there. Yeah, theres no evidence that anyone has been there. But he knows this area the pacific enough to know that theres another island across the horizon. Thats not about it. And Thats Henderson and thats where the men were. Yeah, you know and whats really interesting is Henderson Island has since become. A kind of a vortex for plastic floating plastic and so its and i think it has to do with why the essex guys ended up there. Anyways, the currents all sort of converge on this island, you know, and so thats kind of why those three Whale Boats ended up there and the the beach where they landed is now just full of plastic garbage. Its you know, this this once virgin island and it was virgin island when i was when i well, you know, not a virgin island, but it was absolutely pristine back when i was writing in the heart of the sea. I had the great fortune to run across a scientific study of the ecology of Henderson Island group of scientists that had lived there for a extended amount of time all sorts of photographs. It was just hugely impressive helpful to me and then to see now in the last two decades whats happened to that place is just heartbreak. Yeah, so i think we have time for just maybe one more. And are there any other examples after this of whales attacking whalenships . Good question. Yes, there are and you know, the question is is you know, what was happening here. It was where the whales getting more aggressive as they figured this out. You know, theres also the possibility that you know, there were plenty of Whale Ships prior to the essex that never made it back, you know, had they been destroyed by a whale beforehand. I mean it didnt happen a lot by any means but it did happen while melville was writing moby revising it actually in the summer of 1851. There was word came to him. Of of a Whale Ship that had been attacked by the alexander and alexander. Yeah, and he would write in a letter. I think its the hawthorne would write oma has my evil art raise this monster. I mean, you know, you know talk about well man, but when i was researching in the heart of the sea, i explored every instance in which a whale we had recordings of whaling whales attacking egypt theyre even accounts during World War ii of whales attacking, you know metal naval ships, you know. Then in a group, you know, who knows what behavior inspired that but, you know, it did happen. I didnt happen a lot but you know, it was you know, it was the whalemans worst nightmare because if every Bull Whale decided to attack a ship it would make it very hard for for someone in a wooden Whale Ship to to whale yeah, absolutely. Well, weve reached the end of our time here this evening. Thank you everyone for joining us this evening for Natfilbrick And Michael harrison and we are just delighted to have been able to have this conversation about the Essex Disaster on the 200th anniversary of the event itself. Thank you. Thank absolutely really appreciate it. And and thanks again to the nha because without without this organization i couldnt have written the book and all nantucketers. Oh the organization a huge debt of gratitude. Thank you very much. And thank you all for joining us. We rea