And i had the privilege of beginning my career working in the reagan administration and worked on the reagan centennial and it was a Treasure Trove of learning for me i learned so from this book and i know that those of you who have read and agree and those of you who have not read it order it before the you go to bed tonight. You were really enjoy reading it. Well, lets dive in karen and talk your wonderful book. Why Nancy Reagan . How did you come to focus on her as a subject of a biography . Well, first of all, let me say how delighted i am to be here in this lovely setting and seeing the controversial reagan china for the first time. So i guess theres two ways to look at this question. Why a book . On Nancy Reagan and thats pretty simple simon and schuster. It was a few months after mrs. Reagan died came to me and said we want to biography of her. Do you want to write it and i never written a book before i wasnt really sure i could write a book and i thought well this sounds intriguing. But why this book . It really took me i worked on this book for four and a half years and i was at least two years into the research before really. All the pieces of this very very complex woman began to sort of fit together for me. And i began to realize that if i could pull this book off the way i wanted to. This the story of Nancy Reagan would also become the story of the rise of one of the most consequential figures of the 20th century really a story about the shaping of the Reagan Presidency and in fact also of the shaping of the reagan legacy and that is why i have been so gratified by the extraordinary critical review. That this book has received because it really is. Much much bigger. I think than what i set out to do which was a story a biography of a woman and a marriage and of course an epic love. Free Nancy Reagan had a real impact on her husband his legacy and his presidency and not just as we often hear about first ladies. Oh, she was as closest advisor. I mean she had a true impact on some of his biggest successes some of his most important policies. What were some of the challenges that you encountered in writing this book that you did anticipate . Again, just how many layers there were to this woman who was one of our most controversial of first ladies certainly of our modern first ladies and also the degree to which she herself. Because she kind of molded herself as a very traditional first lady. She was anything but how much of herself she had sort of kept hidden and really made sure wasnt understand stood in her lifetime. Well, you obviously came to know her very well as of course to the course of writing this book if after writing the book you could sit down with her and interview her, what would you ask her . What would you want to know from her . I the conundrum to me for Nancy Reagan, is that she . Ronald reagan was a very solitary figure. She had a far. Superior since then he does. I mean people like James Baker who was their white house first white House Chief of staff would tell you she had a much better nose for trouble a much better sense of who around him was serving him. Well and who was pursuing their own interests . You know who had not lived up to his trust and therefore who needed to go often. She made them disappear. So i would want to know how she could possibly be so shrewd about what was in her Husbands Interest and so clueless so often about her own image. While she was the first lady of the United States and Today Weve listened to many expert presenters. Talk about our wonderful first ladies that have been a compliment and support in many many ways to our country and to their president their husband the president if Nancy Reagan could convene a table for dinner of other first ladies, who do you think she would find most interesting . Who would she want to to know more about . Have Jackie Kennedy there who you know was i hate the Word Icon is overused so much, but of course, you know, Jackie Kennedy said such a style in the white house in ways that Nancy Reagan tried to emulate disastrously with refurbishing the white house and buying expensive china, so she would definitely want Jackie Kennedy there. She would definitely want Eleanor Roosevelt there because in some ways Eleanor Roosevelt was her husbands eyes and ears and in his case his legs the way in some ways the role that Nancy Reagan performed people. Will not believe that comparison but also because Franklin Roosevelt was Ronald Reagans most admired president. And i also she actually read biographies of other first ladies, and i know that she was also very interested in theodore Roosevelts Wife and how she performed this first lady. Well, that would be you know, ive often thought about that too and you think about you mentioning Jackie Kennedy and heres a woman who was 32 years old when her husband was elected president. Was first lady for less than three years, but has left such an extraordinary legacy including the creation of the white house historical association in Nancy Reagan much more senior in her life a Twoterm President and so quite a different role as first lady, so itd be interesting to compare those or see those two. Id love to be a flaw on the wall for that conversation. Well, theres one point where in the first year of the Reagan Presidency were Nancy Reagan is in one controversy after another redoing the white house buying china. Borrowing designer clothes. I mean she Cant Turn around without creating a new controversy and in the middle of this she gets a letter from Jackie Kennedy saying you are going to get through this and then she says but in the meantime, you may not want to look at the newspapers. Maybe not for your business, but thats good. Well, i did have the privilege of working on the reagan centennial that year long observance of his. Birthday in 2011 and one of the things that we undertook in that process was to consider what made the man was it his midwestern upbringing. Was it the roles he held in california with the Labor Union as governor. Was it the influences on his life his mother mrs. Reagan . What about Nancy Reagan . What made her the person that she became and equipped her to be a first lady and do you think Ronald Reagan would have been his politically successful or even been president without her . Well, ill take that last question first people who were closest to the reagans tell me no Stewart Spencer his Ronald Reagans first. Political consultant has advisor throughout his career says he would never have been governor without her. He would never have been. President without her she as i said had this. Incredibly keen Radar And Protectiveness that i do think a figure such as Ronald Reagan who was a perpetual optimist a Delegator Or Somebody who didnt sweat the details. I mean he needed a worrier and he was close to exactly one human being in the world and he married her. But when you look at Nancy Reagan her she comes from a very traumatic childhood that she never really liked to talk about all that much. Her mother was an ambitious actress her biological father was an unsuccessful car salesman. The marriage is essentially over. When this inconveniently timed baby arrives and as soon as the little girl at that point named Anne Francis Robbins is out of diapers her mother essentially abandons her for six years with relatives. So this childs earliest memories are yearning for her absent mother as her mother an actress goes and pursues her career and her social life. And that leaves her with as their son ron explained to me a sort of weariness a fear of abandonment that never really lives and certainly seems to be confirmed two once into her Husbands Presidency where she almost loses him. To you know, the seemingly random event. That would be assassin gets close enough to shoot him. So her mother though ultimately. Comes back and in 1929 arrives in bethesda, maryland where she has left nancy. And informs her that shes getting married that they are moving to chicago. She is marrying a neurosurgeon. Imagine a neurosurgeon in the 1920s. How what a pioneer he has to have been. But it is really then edith her mother who engineers their rise in chicago society. Shes you know loyal davis her Husband Dr. Loyal Davis Nancy adors him, but hes kind of a stern distant. Figure it is really Edith Davis. Who does the networking her her friends from acting people like Spencer Tracy or just coming through the house all the time. And as Nancy Stepbrother told me. In his Parents Marriage loyal and Edith Davis where he is the you know, he is a man of substance, but she is the one who builds the scaffolding for the rise. You really see the pattern that. Would arise in the reagans marriage. And so while her mother is the source of great trauma. When she is young her mother ultimately gives her. A pattern for the Love Partnership that could not only provide the kind of security that nancy spends her Life Craving but also for the pattern for again, how you can make one plus one add up to so much more than two. Wow, so you dont think Jane Wyman would been first lady. And walked out of reagans first marriage because she essentially got bored with him and one of the things she was most bored with as she would testify in court. In their divorce proceedings was that her husband the president of the screen Actors Guild just couldnt shut up about politics. But yet it was a screen Actors Guild that brought Ronald Reagan and Nancy Reagan together. Tell us that story. Well, there is the sort of official version they like to talk about how in the fall of 1949. Shes a actress recently arrived on the Mgm Lot sees her name in the Hollywood Reporter among a list of suspected communist sympathizers. This is the red scare she panics. Um, so she goes to Mervin Leroy whos directing a movie. She has a small part in and she says, you know, what do i do about this . Im not a communist. So she says maybe the screen Actors Guild could. Figure this out. So leroy goes to Ronald Reagan the president of the guild. Disappointed when he calls because he thinks leroys calling to offer him apart. He quickly discovers. Its another Nancy Davis. Theyre talking about well, and he says dont worry about it screen Actors Guilds got your back. Nancy says no. Im really going to have to meet him in person to really calm my fairs. Well, the fact is shed had her eye on this. Yes. I could see a legit about it. Shes kind of had her eye on this newly single handsome guy for a while. But when Ronald Reagan shows up at her doorstep for this supposedly blind, but carefully engineered on her part first date. He is at the lowest point of his life. His wife has walked out his career is coming to an end. He himself has Childhood Trauma having been the son of an alcoholic. He is also standing there. Literally a broken man. He shows up for their first date on two crutches because hes been two months in traction because his leg was broken in six places. And as he would later say if Nancy Davis hadnt come along when she did i would have lost my soul. Now it is no one could have imagined the future that would open up for the two of them and certainly their Love Story from there wasnt entirely smooth. I mean this guy was not quite ready to be pinned down for quite a while. But you know, that is the opening of this kind of epic Love Story. Well reflecting back on president Reagans Life and Leadership And Legacy the reagan library used to the phrase Ronald Reagan inspired freedom changed the world as president. Those are big themes. How much did mrs. Reagan influence intentionally or unintentionally those big theme outcomes of the Reagan Presidency . So i open the book on a story that George Schultz who was secretary of state for most of the Reagan Presidency told me he was 97 years old when he tells me this story. Hes just fairly new in the job in 1983. He hes been there seven months. He really doesnt know the reagans all that well. Washington gets sucked in by a blizzard hes barely beaten the snow coming back from a trip to china. And as the citys digging out on saturday he gets this call from the first lady saying why dont you and your wife come over for dinner. Itll just be the four of us. So George Schultz goes over then again. Its a small dinner. All of a sudden both of the reagans start pounding him with questions about the chinese. What do they like do they have a bottom line . And from there Ronald Reagan starts talking about the soviet union and his own ideas. For engaging them and it suddenly occurs to schultz as he told me. This man has never had a conversation with a bigtime communist leader, and he is dying to have one. And this is a revelation to schultz because Ronald Reagan has had decades of anticommunist rhetoric. His administration is full of hardliners who believe there could never be any such thing as a working relationship with moscow. Hes presiding over the biggest peacetime military buildup in history. So it is a revelation to schultz that this man. Wants to reach out to moscow. But then schultz realizes in that same moment that that was the whole reason Nancy Reagan set up that dinner that she wanted schultz to really understand something important about her Husband And Something that really had the potential to change history. Would that dinner with the schultzs was that before or after the evil Empire Reference the evil empire . Okay, one of the other things that nancy does is she tries to sort of dial back or some of her Husbands Rhetoric so later that spring he gives a speech where he refers to the soviet union as an evil empire. She hates that. And the reagans were a real married couple which means they had real arguments. So Stuart Spencer who i mentioned earlier their close political advisor is also invited over to a private dinner in the in the residence shortly after that. And Nancy Reagan is still just pounding on Ronald Reagan about this evil Empire Thing and hes trying to defend himself and finally he turns to stu spencer and he says, you know stu. What do you think and stu goes well, mr. President. They are an evil empire. But yeah, that was kind of harsh at which Point Reagan just doesnt want his wife to have any more ammunition and just says what do we have for dessert . Theres a great light that shines on the president and first lady and theyre highly visible to our country and its obviously the office to the president and his staff the white house, but its also the home to the president and his family. How did Nancy Reagan or how did the reagans make the residents of the white house their home . Not just aesthetically but how did they live there in a way that nurtured their marriage nurtured their relationship . Well her her decision to renovate the white house and specific. Glade the private quarters of the white house in the middle of a recession was politically a disaster. But she does want it to be a home. And you know, yes, they threw glittering social events dozens and dozens of beautiful State Dinners. They were out and about in washington but most evenings. Ronald reagan, he would take a lot of Work Home with him. It would be just the two of them. They would watch the news on tv trays and then he would you know, go and finish his work but he wanted nothing more than to just be home with nancy and if you read his diaries. Its like almost every entry is sort of suffused with references to her like well nancys been been gone for 35 hours. It feels like a barn in here. In your book you speak of influences on mrs. Reagan some conventional some unconventional people. She would talk with you mentioned James Baker earlier who were some of the more unconventional influences on her thinking that were in their own way became very controversial. Well most controversial of course is when it is revealed in the final year of his presidency that she has been relying on an astrologer. To to weigh in on when the president should make a trip or give a speech or schedule, you know all sorts of events. And this grows . In part first of all hollywood is kind of a superstitious place anyway, so a lot of people in hollywood had interests in astrology going back to the 40s. But in the chapter on the assassination attempt, i really try to take the Reader Minute by minute by minute what that day was like for Ronald Reagan, but for Nancy Reagan seeing her husband a lot closer to death. Than the white house let on at that time. When Ronald Reagan survives that he has a religious faith. He believes that god preserved him for a reason. God has a purpose for him that really gives him sort of a piece. Nancy reagan doesnt really have that kind of religious faith. In fact her father her adoptive father that she so worshiped was an atheist. So she is looking for essentially anything that can give her a sense of control because she is just racked by anxiety. She is wrapped by the fear that anytime her husband sets foot outside the white house. Theres somebody out there waiting to finish off the job that john hinckley. So one day her good friend merv griffin, big Talk Show Host Entertainment Executive Someone with whom she shared a July 6th birthday and an interest in astrology says, you know, there was this woman in san francisco. She knew March 30th was going to be a bad day. And i really in her desperation. Its completely irrational. Its its understandable on some levels but completely irrational. Turns to an Astrologer Jung quickly and really gives her. A lot of power over you know whether the president is in the white house one day or not. Not over policy though quickly would later claim. She did have that influence. And in the first term all of this is handled by Michael Dever Deputy white House Chief of staff nancys closest confidant and really kept a secret. But when dee relieves in the second term other people have to be led in on the secret one of whom is Donald Reagan the autocratic white House Chief of staff. He and Nancy Reagan have an epic battle during irancontra. She gets him fired. He gets his revenge by riding a towel, but that begins with this revelation that the president of the United States is scheduled has been in the hands of an astrologer. It sounded almost too wacky to believe well the influence of that type of the astrologer on the scheduling aspects of the presidency and then her influence over. Was actually serving in various roles mentioned the Don Reagan and nazi astrologers influence nancy rich influence and you mentioned the Don Reagan episode was mrs. Reagan essentially a de facto chief of staff to the president. In some ways. I think thats a good way to describe it, you know in the first term they had what was called the troika it was an ungainly situation where you had a chief of staff James Baker who he himself didnt know the reagan as well. He told me he got the job because nancy wanted him to have the job. Deaver Michael Deaver the Deputy Chief of staff who i mentioned and Edwin Mease Counselor or the president the most ideological of the three. But William Clark who was one of the president s national security advisors would later say in an oral history that i read the real troika was Baker Deaver and nancy. And she would if she thought Somebody Wasnt serving the president very well. She would do what she could. Make sure that person disappeared she is one of the reasons that Ronald Reagan went through a Half Dozen national security advisors. So when they would go upstairs in the evening, and that door was closed. It was just the two of them if we were flies on the wall up there. What type of interaction do you think we would have witnessed during those president ial years it was she telling him what to do. Was she advising him what to do was on his part . I think in some ways. She was constantly on his case constantly on his the case of those around him. You know not to over schedule him to sort of put him in situations where he she knew how he could perform at his best. She knew he needed time to himself. She knew he needed solitude so she would say that her first concern. Was his wellbeing but yes, other than that she would she wanted to see every speech she would pour over the polls and as James Baker told me. If you could convince the first lady that something was in the president s best interest. You had a pretty good shot of getting the president on board, too. And as nancy would later say does he ever tell me . No sure he tells me no and i wait a while and then i come back and from another direction and sometimes she would recruit other people to make the argument for her. Well, it seems to be that Ronald Reagan love being president of the United States really enjoyed that role of a lifetime if you will. Think mrs. Reagan enjoyed being first lady it was she certainly had one of the rockier 10 years in the job. She Ronald Reagan first runs for president in 1976 barely loses the republican nomination to the sitting President Gerald Fort she really encourages him as hes deliberating whether to try this again in 1980. She is one of the main reasons he decides to go for it. She convinces him. This is your time. By 1984 she doesnt want him to run again. Shes terrified for his physical safety. Shes believe it or not given that he would ultimately win 49 states. Shes worried about whether he can get reelected. But i do think starting around 1982 83 she does begin to find. Her own way in the job. She has smarter public Relations Advice she embraces the cause of fighting drugs among the young and and she just finally she just becomes much much. More comfortable in the role talking about being comfortable in a role. It takes a lot of selfconfidence to do what she did with the second hand clothes story. Tell us how that came about and its very selfdeprecating moment, but also extremely clever so as shes rounding the band from 1981 this really terrible year into 1982. Her popularity is such that. She realizes that if Ronald Reagan is going to shes becoming a liability to her husband if hes going to succeed shes going to have to succeed. And so there was a fresh new controversy over the fact that she is discovered to have been. Borrowing designer clothes really expensive outfits thousands and thousands of Dollars Worth of clothes and not returning them. Um, so theres a big dinner in washington every year called the gridiron dinner. Its a Press Dinner white tight dinner. Its an evening of skits, you know lampooning people and so its very clear. Theyre going to not going to be able to resist going after this fresh controversy. So at the white house her relatively new Press Secretary Sheila Tate discovers. Theyre going to do a parody of the Song Secondhand rose the Fanny Bryce Song and theyre gonna call it secondhand clothes and theyre going to have an actress singing all about Nancy Reagan and her second hand clothes. And they go to the Gridiron Club and they said shed like to give a response. Which surprises and delights the club and so she she keeps it a secret but the song finishes Nancy Reagan disappears from the Head Table at the dinner. This is a dinner, you know, most of the supreme court. Is there ambassadors and everybody said, oh she must have been mad at that song. And the next thing people see is that this . Tiny woman appears on stage in the tackiest Outfit Youve ever seen a big feathered hat and a Feather Boa and flowered Skirt And Rain boots. And then they suddenly realized this is Nancy Reagan and she sings a parodied version of a second hand clothes and i think the final line of it is something like i sure hope ed me so and she shes got this a secret even from her husband that she was going to do this. So and the end of it is she picks up a plate that looks like her china and throws it on the ground. So this is a gigantic Standing Ovation calls for an encore. She doesnt have an encore so she just sings the whole thing over again and this time when she throws down the plate its smashes which then of Course Everybody loves and it really does change begin to change her image and her husband. Kits up to give his speech at the same dinner and he said well. I arrived here a happy husband and im going to be leaving a Stage Door Johnny that reminds me of president. Kennedys reference to being the man who accompanied Jackie Kennedy to paris the Jackie Kennedy kind of stole the limelight in paris and mrs. Reagan, certainly did that night and the the idea that this woman had a sense of humor at all much left less an ability to for selfdeprecation was really quite a wonderful picture of President Reagan himself. Just go falling at the dias that table that night the third doing that but fashion was a mainstay with her. She wanted to look her best and she dressed her best and fast forward to the time of the first ladys portrait, which was done by Aaron Schickler the same portrait artist, ironically that did Jaqueline Kennedy you say ironically i would say probably deliberately. Okay. Good point you win that one. Shes wearing that very that Galanos Gown of the red her signature red. Anything about the imagery of that and the similarity between those two portraits that strike you its the serenity. In both of them and i think the serenity and Nancy Reagans case that was really sort of an odds with with the reality of her life that its just both of them such such beautiful beautiful portraits. The two most meaningful books that i have read this year are Peter Baker and susan Glassers Book on James Baker and your book on Nancy Reagan yet these both focus on a presidency 30 years ago. What is it about the Reagans President reagan Nancy Reagan that still intrigues and captivates Interests Today . Well, you know it was the whole. Unlikelihood of his story that you know this man could come out of hollywood and really sees you know that hed be elected governor, but also that he would he would dominate. Politics in not only his era but you know for a generation to come the idea imagine. Any political Candidate Today who could win 49 states . And certainly his policies. Their a lot of people who will draw a straight line from reagan era policies to a lot of the, you know, less less attractive themes in our politics today. But where i think the analogies . Fall apart is that Ronald Reagans gift i believe . Was his ability to make the country believe in itself. Just the kind of sheer optimism that he was able to convey and again it just to me at least feels so at odds with everything about our politics today. Thats true. Very interesting modern first. Ladies take on a Cause Or Purpose or a mission is as reagans as you mentioned was the crusade against drugs and the three words just say no still bring her to Mind Today all of these years later. How did she come to focus on that as an issue how meaningful and real was it at the time did it play well with the administration and the press at the time of people sort of love to roll their eyes at just say no today because it sounds very simplestic. And certainly, you know people even in the time would see that as just sort of family friendly basically her message, which was aimed at young children elementary school children just saying was essentially designed to kind of change their perceptions of drugs and the acceptability of drugs, so it sounds very simplistic and critics would point out that the reagan administration was cutting funds for Treatment And Prevention programs at the time that they were they were treating Drug Abuse not as a health issue, but as a Law Enforcement Issue and incarcerating a lot of people including a lot men of color, but ive actually taken a look at some of the research that was going on and there was and theres something called the monitoring the future project, which is the single best longitudinal survey of attitudes towards drugs and you really do see a shift from the 1970s into the 1980s where children with go from saying that in the big deal of my friends smoke marijuana. Yeah, thats really unacceptable and then back in the 1990s the attitudes one once shes off the scene once just say no is off the scene the attitudes shift back. And another person i talked to was joe. Calafano. No democrat. This was this was lbjs top domestic Policy Advisor Health secretary under Jimmy Carter. He now runs a center for Substance Abuse at columbia university. He is a huge fan of just say no, in fact at one point. He had Nancy Reagan on his board. He said it was a simple message, but it was exactly what you wanted parents to be saying to their children. Its exactly what you wanted children to be saying to each other. Aids came on the World Stage during the Reagan Presidency. I had a great privilege of working for admiral james watkins who chaired the reagan Aids Commission later when he was secretary of energy, but that commission was fraught with controversy and mrs. Reagan injected herself into that process. Why and what were the results well before we even discuss aids we have to stipulate that the reagan administrations in action on aids. Its unwillingness to deal with it at all really until the second term. Is a deep scar on its Legacy And One that will never be erased. But i did find in my research for the book that as belated as it was Nancy Reagan became attuned to what was going on much sooner than her husband did in part. Because her son was in new york in the Arts World Dancing with the joffrey ballet. She was the daughter of a physician. Um, she was making efforts to sort of get Ronald Reagan more in a sort of. Abstract frame of line where he could look at this. Its ultimately the death of Rock Hudson famous Movie Actor that puts a face to it for Ronald Reagan. But when reagan is finally ready belatedly to give his first big speech on aids in 1987. Nancy reagan is not willing to entrust this to the right wingers in the white house Communications Shop or the administration. She goes out recruits her own speechwriter landon parvin. She arranges for Ronald Reagan to actually meet for the first time with his own surgeon general Everett Koop on the subject. Um, the speech is not perfect, but i have seen the drafts and i have seen what people in the administration were trying to get the president to say. Which is some pretty horrifying stuff looking back from 2021. And then finally, youre right. The commission is appointed to deal with it it almost falls apart from mismanagement when admiral watkins has brought in. It really does come out with an absolutely scathing and just on the mark report. About the in action and the mismanagement of the reagan administration one thing that Nancy Reagan insisted upon it was quite controversial at the time. Was the therapy at least one openly gay expert on that commission. And you go back and read the stories and people like Gary Bauer who was a domestic Policy Advisor or Gordon Humphrey a conservative senator from new hampshire or saying this should not be an administration that gives people appointments based on their bedroom habits, you know, its thats the level of Ignorance And Bigotry that really still existed even as late as you know going into the late 1980s. The reagan years were somewhat glamorous years in Washington Dc was hollywood on the potomac in many ways. President reagan cherished in relished his hollywood friends and seems that mrs. Reagan did too. Any influence that she brought into the white house social dynamic . That was particularly hollywood based for her years there. Brought in a big Glamor Factor frank sinatra was a fixture it just about all sorts of events and it was such a contrast from the carter years. You know Jimmy Carter at one point banned the playing of hail to the chief because he thought it was too pretentious. So she not only brings back the the Glamor Factor. She courts the liberal georgetown scene where you know that essentially they had. You know killed Richard Nixon with a thousand snubs and slides. So she somehow manages to to meld all of these worlds and that really was Nancy Reagans doing i think Ronald Reagan really, you know. Probably could have cared less who was sitting at whose table at which State Dinner or you know, what that what the Guest List was or what the flowers looked like she just stressed over every one of those details and by the way stressed out the Kitchen Staff at the people at the State Department as well over those details. Well, i think she definitely got the importance of social diplomacy and that when the heads of state of other countries visit our country they want to see the Glitz And Glamor of america and certainly the Hollywood Influence was part of that that mrs. Reagan introduced into that mix one of my favorite stories, by the way on that you read her you read her memoir the only member of the reagan administration as i could best i could tell who escapes any criticism is George Schultz. She says if george told me it was raining outside. I didnt have to look out the window. But she knew that George Schultz was quite a flirt so she would always make sure that he was seated at the dinner next tv most attractive and glamorous actress there and even george at the age of 97 just lit up when he told me. I even got to dance with ginger rogers and when he does dance with ginger rogers Nancy Reagan sends in a platoon of white house photographers and then since schultz enough photos of him dancing with ginger rogers to paper the walls of his office. Well you think about the power of those photos. Theres the diana and john travolta picture, which is i saw this week on television. And so thats another Thing Travolta said it would never have occurred to him to ask the princess of wales to dance and its nancy who who comes up and nudges him and and he said all of a sudden i realized i was supposed to be prince charming ready. You mentioned iran contra very significant moment. In that that presidency mrs. Reagan did she get involved in many international affairs matters . What . World leaders think of her did they suspect that . She had her thumb on the scale with President Reagan. Certainly, the soviet leaders did at one point. Tax the soviet News Agency was assigned a reporter to covering all the first ladies events. So but you mentioned iran contra that to me that chapter is the of my book. Because this is a scandal it begins at the end of 1986 and it threatens to swallow the Reagan Presidency people who are too young to remember it involved. The United States was found to have been selling arms to this Governments Enemy Iran in exchange for the release of american hostages who were being held in the middle east and then the money from those seat sales was in violation of us law going to the contra rebels who were fighting the leftist sandinistic government in nicole all very complicated. When it breaks Ronald Reagan just again optimist. This is all going to work out. I didnt do anything wrong. It is really Nancy Reagan who . Believes this calls for a complete shakeup of the white House Staff. Starting with the chief of staff. Her husband doesnt want to do it. They go round and round and round about this for weeks. You know, hes like, im not gonna sacrifice other people just to save my own hide and one point he has heard to scream at at her get off my back. Ultimately, she wins the other thing she does which is just as important and i think maybe more important. Was bringing Ronald Reagan around to the point. Where he could admit to the country and admit to himself . That he had in fact in violation of all of his promises and all of his claims to the contrary. Had traded arms for hostages and in a televised speech. Once again nancy doesnt trust the west wing to write this she brings in her own speechwriter. The president acknowledges this it is compared to Kennedys Bay of pig speech. The next day his overnight poll ratings go up nine points because a country that had begun to believe that Ronald Reagan. Wasnt being straight with them. Really gets its confidence back in his integrity whats an incredible behind the Scenes Story of her influence with him . But how did the white House Staff react to that when she would pull the rug out from under them like that . Okay, the smarter schrooter people on the staff the figures like George Schultz and James Baker. Understood that she could be an absolutely. Crucial ally she was somebody you wanted to have on your side. They were in the minority in the west wing her. She didnt set foot there very often, but if she was unhappy about something they all knew it. And if Somebody Wasnt in her favor they tend to not to last for very long in their jobs. So you do see that, you know a lot of the people around the president really thought she was just an annoyance. The cal gorbachev Ronald Reagan on the World Stage the evil empire we talked about eventually the fall of the soviet union two players, just back from them are Rice Or Gorbachev and Nancy Reagan. That relationship you talk about in your book. Tell us that story. Yeah for one thing you would think these two women might have had a few things in common. Soviet first ladies before rays of gorbachev. Were real enigmas often the people in the country. Didnt know how many kids they had. Sometimes they didnt even know their first names. Raisa is a brilliant academic her husbands closest advisor outspoken in her own views. She too is criticized for being sort of aloof and too interested in fashion. Shes seen sitting. At the Pierre Cardin Fashion show and in paris not a place where you would normally find them soviet you wouldnt have you wouldnt have found, you know, Nina Cruz Jazz there. But the two of them her she and Nancy Reagan just that the most delicious subplot of the three summits between Reagan And Gorbachev 4 if you count reykjavik, which wasnt supposed to be a summit the most juicy subplot becomes these women sort of sniping at each other back and forth. Nancy gets tired of rices constant lectures on the glories of Leninism Raisa towards this white house that nancy has redone and is so proud of and she just says well it looks like a museum. I prefer a house that looks like a home, you know, so they they are just really each of them sort of like trying to figure out where the Others Jugular is. Well, lets keep with that theme. Theres Nancy Reagan and another you poured it woman in this scenario. And thats the second lady of the united States Barbara Bush and the relationship between Nancy Reagan his first lady and Barbara Bushs second lady in Post Presidency when you have the former first lady and Barbara Bush as first lady described that for us, they couldnt stand each other Nancy Reagan. Wasnt that fond of the bushes just in general . She ends up liking bush 43. So the two of them, its again. Its its a i guess people the general public didnt know about it at the time but in washington, its not a very wellkept secret and Barbara Bush, you know is pretty good at dishing it out as as well as taking it. They can hold her own, right . But you know that the fact that Nancy Reagan refuses to invite them to the the Princess Diana Prince charles dinner, which is the most glittering social event of the entire Reagan Presidency, and you know, they her advisors to keep going back going, you know, mrs. Reagan. Weve really should invite the Vice President , dont you think and no but i think theres a number of factors and i would ask this question over and over and over again, and i think that for both of them. Never really got past the bitterness of the 1980 republican primary campaign. It was easier for the husbands to let go of this then the wives and Barbara Bush certainly never let nancy forget who she thought ought to be in the Oval Office rather than going to funerals of foreign leaders. But i also think there was a lot about Barbara Bush that triggered Nancy Reagans insecurities. Even though Barbara Bush herself had a closet full of designer clothes. You know, she got glowing press coverage. She was americas grandmother. Everyone loved her the Reagan Family and i write quite a bit about this in the book, too. It was quite dysfunctional. Um, and the Bush Family is so close and you know, the kids are around the grandkids are around Barbara Bush can trace her ancestry back to the Mayflower Nancy has always viewed as the you know, harvey parvenue from hollywood, you know, so its some like i said there was and it does continue even after the presidency and one of the snubs is when Nancy Reagan was first lady and struggling her social Secretary Murphy Brandon goes back to her Alma Mater Smith college where nancy actually graduated and asked him if maybe they might want to give her an honorary degree or something. Nice for it. They said hes you know, her husbands too we might have demonstrations. Barbara bush is a few years behind nancy, but she drops out a smith her Freshman Year to marry george h. W. Bush. Well guess who gets an honorary degree . So then when smith comes back to Nancy Reagan and says, hey weve decided we want to honor you. She says i dont think so. President s savor their time away from the white house at a place all of them have a place that they like to go and for President Reagan. It was his ranch in santa barbara. Did mrs. Reagan love the ranch as much as the president did or did she love Ronald Reagan and put up with the ranch . I think it was the it was this was not a place that she would have chosen to spend her time. In fact when . Were there she would usually spend most of her time by the pond on the phone with her friends . The other thing but she knew Ronald Reagan needed this. She knew that this rejuvenated him. The other thing is that the reagans used Camp David. More than any other president before or since because she and they would usually go with just a few aids so that they could just have the place. Pretty much themselves the secret service would make a point of giving them 50 feet, you know, she did understand that that her husband really needed this time to himself and at one point Richard Allen the national advisor the first one heres from Michael Devers and says. You need to quit loading the president down. With these hundreds of pages of paperwork when he goes to Camp David on the Weekend And Alan goes. What do you mean he reads it all and deaver says yeah, thats why and sure enough Nancy Reagan had like issued this order, you know cut down the paperwork by 75 interesting. The chairman of our board of directors is Fred Ryan also the publisher of the Washington Post and fred opened the session this morning the program that began earlier today on first ladies. He was also the Post Presidency chief of staff to President Reagan and it was during that time that President Reagan. Came to grips with the alzheimers and he wrote that extraordinarily poignant letter to the country. Tell us that story in mrs. Reagans role in that story. Well, first of all, you know it is forever going to be probably debated as to precisely win the symptoms of alzheimers set in and i lay out as clearly. And dispassionately as i can in the book. What i found to be the evidence. That it really becomes. Clear early 1990s he begins to not recognize people. Hes known for decades to become disoriented as to where he is and again, by the fall of 1994 the diagnosis is clear and yes, he is going to it is reagans idea to. That he should announce this to the country. He remembers that when he had colon cancer. When nancy had Breast Cancer that they had really done a great service to the country in bringing these diseases out of the shadows and so he says i want to write a statement and he goes to the window sits down at a table writes the statement and he hands it to fred and he says now go get this typed up. Nancy reads it her eyes filled with tears and Fred Ryan says were not typing this up. We are putting this out in your handwriting. So that people can see these are your thoughts. For Nancy Reagan all of this. You know, she had thought. Ronald reagan leaves office a very hail. Hes nearly 80 but hes by all appearances. Physically fit all of a sudden hes not going to have the decades that other president s get to begin to write the first draft of their own legacies. So in addition to becoming the Caretaker And Guardian of his physical wellbeing of his dignity for the last decade of his life. It really does fall on her. To shape and define the Legacy Part of that is building the library. A part of it is defending. Him from people on the right who would appropriate Ronald Reagans name and image for causes that he might not have supported. But theres also still this theory particularly among liberal intellectuals. That Ronald Reagan was in clark cliffords words and amiable dunce. He was just an actor, you know reading somebody lying somebody else had written and well, i think one of the most important things that she does in the last years of his Life And Beyond is to sure, the publication of the diaries that he kept as president in his own hand one of the few president s who really did that. To public to the publication of his handwritten letters of halfcentury the publication of the handwritten speeches. He had given in the years before the Ada Election so that people could see these were Ronald Reagans ideas. This was Ronald Reagans. Governing philosophy that you know really to assure. That he would have a legacy. That would not only establishment as him as what she wanted. You know, she wanted history to recognize him as a great man, but also to assure that this legacy is really true. To who he was and what he believed. And ultimately she also does something very very controversial on her own in the final months of her life. George W Bush is deliberating on what to do about one of the most promising areas of medical Research Stem Cell research. Which involves the destruction of human embryos and nancy stands up publicly in 2004 at a very crucial moment. In the debate over stem cell research. And announces that she supports it. This causes an absolute explosion on the right. Somebody on Capitol Hill calls up Michael Deaver her close advisor and says Ronald Reagan would never have supported this to which Michael Dever replies. Ronald Reagan Hasnt had to take care of Ronald Reagan for the last 10 years. Thats powerful and President Reagan passes and theres an extraordinary funeral outpouring for him here in washington and back in southern, california. And then mrs. Reagan lives a number of years and participates in library events and carries on that torch a bit, but her time to pass a columns of her funeral is much different. Its all at the library. I had the privilege of escorting. This is carter on that occasion and being there. Much different than the president ial funeral tell us about that sunset of business Reagans Life that last public moment and what that funeral said about her as a first lady. You know her final years as her husband is gone. Her friends have disappeared one by one. Shes suffering from a variety of health ailments are very very lonely ones. Joanne drake, whos one of the people who runs library people would call her and say what can i do for mrs. Reagan and joanne would always answer the exact same weight . Just call her. Um, but you do see this funeral where . There are representatives of every president ial family going as far back as the kennedys where the tributes to Nancy Reagan are poignant and funny and incredibly honest about not just her strengths but her flaws. And i think in that funeral. You really do. Begin to understand that it really isnt until the very end of her life and especially after they see the the stoicism with which and the devotion with which she dealt with her husbands. Final illness that people begin to understand that for all of her complexity for all of her flaws for all of her demons the real strength. Of her character, and i really think she was you know, she paid the highest price imaginable for the acclaim. That finally came her way. You got to know Nancy Reagan pretty well and writing this book. You think she would think about it . I would hope that she would think it was honest. I i really tried to. Put everything in as much context. As i could get this this book is no valentine. This book does not gloss over. The pain of her life it does not. Gloss over her misjudgments that the many problems she brought upon herself. But ultimately i do think that when it came to picking a partner. Ronald reagan did pretty well. And i think that she was just way way overdue for a reassessment. In may 1985 nbc News Chief white House Correspondent Chris Wallace interviewed president , Ronald Reagan and first lady Nancy Reagan at Camp David for a planned special report white House Television also recorded the session capturing their informal interactions next on the presidency. Well see that interview which picks up mid conversation the reagans talk about their marriage Nancy Reagans influence on her husbands politics and policies and their joint decision to get into politics. This is courtesy of the Ronald Reagan president ial library. And all by going back and forth from them, and im more even like an addresses on national tv when youre in the overall office and youre Reading Right into the prompt here. I mean you dont appear reading at all. Well, you know you can see dimly that little