Now, scientists have made great progress in helping us reach, explore, and even briefly inhabit the harsh domain above us. But the rest of us are slower to follow or even understand where the scientists are enabling us to travel. Many nations and even some corporations are exploring high above the earths atmosphere, testing the infinite number of ways that mastering space can help the 7. 6 billion of us who live down here on the earth. The Space Age is base 70 years old and the foundational outer Space Treaty just over 50 years old. That should tell us something. Unfortunately precious little has happened since the ost to organize human efforts in the inhuman space domain. Space is in danger of becoming the wild west wherever satellite, stroernt, cosmo naught, has to defend seven. From their testimony i see our State Department experts are giving us our are giving up on the concept of a lawabiding rulesbased Space And Settling for something less, like suggestions based space, or hshl even the hintbased space. Perhaps thats the best we can do. But i think we should try harder for better. Cant we at least agree on agreements on Space Traffic Management . And the size on of safety zones around satellites or capsule, Ban Debris from asas or compatible docking latches. There must be a consensus somewhere on earth for the sensible. I look forward to discussing with our witnesses. And i turn to todays honorary strategic forces ranking member mr. Doug lamborn for any opening remarks he may have. Doug. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Can you hear me okay . Yes. Okay. And i want to thank you with, Chairman Castro and ranking member maliotakis. Additionally i thank the witnesses for joining us to discuss the important issue. As this subcommittee highlighted again and again, space is a vital component of our National Security, now more than ever. Not only that but our global economy is totally dependent on access to space. Space like the Air And Sea domains is a common good we all benefit from regardless of country of origin. But unlike the other Dplans Space is more likely to suffer a tragedy of the common outcome as a result of the bad actors. The physics of space leaves it to susceptible to longterm damage from debris created by collisions, poorly conducted antisatellite weapons and testing and simply poor planning. The foundation international laws and norms we currently operate under were developed under the cloud of the cold war when only the two great powers could access space. As a result the outer Space Treaty doesnt account for the congested operations of space we see today. This treaty was also written with broad language and phrases open to broad interpretation by signatories to the agreement. I do not believe China And Russia are operating in good faith when it comes to proposals as evidenced by the treaty on prevention of the placement of weapons in outer space sometimes referred to a no first Place Treaty this proposed to ban weapons in outer space but lacked any system for verification and also was silent on Space Debris caused by asat Testing And Rendezvous and proximity operations. Most notably however China And Russia already are weaponizing space proposing a treaty upon which rat fiks they would already in violation of. I was glad to see the uk submitted a resolves to reduce threats through norms rules and principles of responsible behaviors, unquote, to be considered by the u. N. General assembly this summer as in a drive to make space safer and more sustainable. What i dont want is another international treaty that would tie our hand while others blatantly ignore limitations like the lake intermediate range nuclear forces treaty. I also dont want to see a treaty where the u. S. Receives almost no benefits while youre adverses do,ic loo the now dead open skies treaty. So i appreciate the continued Service And Experience that you all provide to the nation. And i look forward to our discussions today. Thank you, mr. Chairman. And i yield back. Thank you mr. L. A. Lamborn. I turn to the Chairman Castro for his opening remarks. Well, thank you, chairman, and thank you all. Its an honor to be here today with colleagues from both committees to discuss one of the longterm challenges we face not just as a nation but as a species, space. Specifically, the rules that will govern humanities exploration, commerce and other activity within space, both by the private Sector And Nation states. I give special thanks to Chairman And Congressman jim cooper. He is chairman of the subcommittee on strategic forces which oversees many of our Nations Space programs. For working together with the house foreign Affairs Committee and my staff on this important and historic joint hearing. In the long run, the peaceful exploration of space can be one of the most significant and unifying projects that our nation and our world has ever undertaken. As president kennedy said of the moon mission, americas journeys to Space Quote will serve to organize and measure the best of our energy and skills. In short, space pharas can bring out the best in us leading to cutting edge technologies, creating new jobs, making significant scientific discoveries and perhaps above all, uniting our divided nation between a common purpose once more. I commend the biden administration for pledging to continue ongoing plans to return americans to the moon and making clear part of this mission will be to land the first Woman And Person of color on the lunar surface. Ensuring that this Moon Landing will be seen by americans and the world as an accomplishment on behalf of all americans. Yet, despite the goal of peaceful coexistence among the Stars Space is not immune to the realities of international relations at a time of rising authoritarian powers or the global trend of increased Inequality And Lack of corporate accountability. This hearing will serve to assess the current and future state of human activity in space, and to inform a new american strategy for preserving the rule of law, peace and international cooperation in the most hostile Environment Humanity inhabits. This is new territory, of course with, for all of us. Theres never been this many state and private actors all operating in space at once, with multiple different priorities and growing risks of clashes both intentional and not. In many ways, the challenge in space is unlike any that humanity faced before. It took centuries to shape the law of the sea, drawing upon thousands of years of human sea fares we dont have 100 years to set the rules for space. Nor do we have traditions to draw upon falling beyond living memory. Its already critical to the United States military our allies and partners and adverses. The question is how we and other states respond. And whether well be able to develop a set of rules to manage disputes and develop a set of rules that will also work for all of us. The United States has engaged in the critical issues for decades at the united nations and in other international organizations. The accelerates pace of human activities in space raises the urgency of reengaging with our partners and establishing norms and rules. Earlier this week the united States Senate or the United States made a public declaration of what our nations interests were in space, what threats we face, and how we will engage with the international community to establish norms of behavior. This is a critical task. We rely on space for almost everything we do as a society. To include navigation, accurate time keeping, global communications, and weather. The number of satellites in space from both government and private actors will increase nearly 10 fold in the next decade. Countries including china are developing the capabilities to disable or stroi edestroy satellites in space through missiles, other satellites, cyber attacks or electronic warfare. And as the United States plans our return to the moon, that also raises the importance of minimizing the risk to astronauts in space. Congress must pay careful attention to all the issues and determine where the United States will stand on the crucial questions for space governance. This hearing will be one of the foreign Affairs Committees first significant opportunities to address the issues and hear directly from the administration on what were doing to build an international rulesbased order to govern space that can meet the challenges of humanitys second space faring century. With that i yield back chair. Hong so much Chairman Castro. Now we turn to ranking member for her remarks. Thank you Chairman Cooper as we set tout develop a framework for rules based order in space that serves american interests there are two primary areas whichish to explore with our panel, government witnesses from the department of defense and state. First, my distinguishes colleagues already made reference to the impact of the 1967 outer Space Treaty. But its the common heritage of human Kind Principle captured fl the second preambulate. Recognizes the use of outer space for useful purposes, unquote. That i wish to highlight. This this principle of international law holds that just as we are to treat our seas on earth, outer space should be treated for Exploration And Use for the benefit of all and shall be the province of all human kind further is means outer space should be free from exploitation by any Nation State or private corporation. I draw this out because the Principle And Practice under the u. N. Convention of the law of the sea also flown as uncrs. It was established to set out a comprehensive legal regime for the worlds oceans, despite being a party to this convention, china has acted without regard to its terms, even going so far as to ignore international Tribe Unl Ruling and rejected the legality of maritime claims and behavior from 2016. Nearly five years later there have been no action taken against china and so china continues to act in contravention of the law of the sea convention. Last month the office of the director of national intelligence issued its Analyst Report of worldwide threats to u. S. National security. Which includes sections on the threat of russia and Chinas Space programs. The report the collective insights of the u. S. Intelligence community and focuses on the most director serious threats to the United States during the next year. The report identifies China And Russia as antisatellites Weapon Program and the threat these programs cause to u. S. , forces that revelle on satellitebased communications. I share in the concerns by the armed services colleagues on the threat posed by China And Russias Space Technology to the principle of common heritage of all human kind both nations track records on the Earths Surface give more than sufficient reason to expect that their malign behavior will extend into orbit. The second aspect i wish to highlight is the commercial exploration of space. I join my colleagues in enthusiastically supporting the participation between nasa and commercial Space Exploration. The Spacex Falcon 9 rocket from the Nasa Space center propelled the international team of Astronauts Crew Dragon and the endeavor to the international Space Station is a perfect illustration of how far we have come in Space Exploration. As with the safe return of the crew and astronauts while the u. S. Government builds partnerships with private industry from China And Russia there is no distinction that which is state owned and that which is privately owned as the respective state problems are state owned. To the extent both civil and military purposes. We have seen this script before in the pacific waterways. The commercial fishing vessels are also used by china as maritime militia. Focusing on these two years the principle commercial Space Exploration, because of because on the one hand they offer us opportunities to opportunities to abiding Nation States and future generations. But on the other they represent dangerous resulting from Nation States unwilling to be bound by a rulesbased order. And Space Technology our nations security. In our discussion we must not cast aside the realities when world leaders negotiated the terms of the outer Space Treaty in the days of the original star trek series, maintaining that status was attainable. As the gloep global leader pursue international norms rules and principles of responsible behavior in outer space is now fiction. The u. S. And other nations states may abide by international norms rules and principles of responsible behavior. But our competition acts with indifference to the same rulesbased order. This is our current Pralgt Environment and we must pursue a Space Policy that brings together our interests and also addressing the challenges in Space Exploration. I welcome the panel of experts and yield the remainder of my time. And i suppose i ran out. Thank you. Thank you representative maliatakis. First let me say Everyone Smub muted except for the witnesses i call on. Let me repeat, everyone should be muted. There is way too much Background Noise here. Please mute yourself. Our first witness from his five Minute Statement will be mr. John hill. Now mr. Hill. Thank you Chairman Cooper. Ranking Member Lamborn and. Distinguished members of the subcommittees. Its an honor to testify before you today along with my distinguished colleagues. You have my full written statement. And with your permission i ask it be included in the record. I will briefly summarize it. Without objection, so ordered. The u. S. Government efforts to foster a rulesbased international order in outer space are focused on establishing voluntary, nonlegally binding measures derived from current technical and operational best practices. As one of the worlds most Experience Pd Space operators, the department of defense actively supports and partners with the department of state in developing u. S. Proposals within international Venues Norwood to shape the strategic environment toward an Agreedupon Model for safe, responsible on professional behavior. There are many benefits to having common guidelines for space operations. Among these are a safer, more sustainable, more stable and more predictable Space Operating Environment for all space operators. Importantly for d. O. D. Such an Operating Environment can also facility indications and warnings of hostile intentions and hostile acts. D. O. D. Policies and practices often serve as the basis for international measures. D. O. D. Models responsible behavior through our routine space operations. And d. O. D. Works carefully to ensure that our space operations are consistent with international measures the United States supports and with relevant domestic and international law, including the law of armed conflict and the inherent right of selfdefense. For example, not only are d. O. D. Operations fully consistent with the 2007 Space Debris mitigation guidelines of the united Nations Committee on peaceful uses of outer space, but d. O. D. Practices also served as the as a source of the more rigorous standards adopted in the November 2019 United States Government orbital Debris Mitigation standard practices. Likewise, for ten years the department of defense provided one of the lead u. S. Delegates to the negotiations on the committee on the peaceful uses of outer space that produced the 2019 guidelines for the longterm sustainability of outer space activities. This participation ensured consistency with d. O. D. Practices and greatly facilitated implementation of these guidelines. Most recently, d. O. D. Has supported the drafting of the United States national submission in response to the 2020 united nations General Assembly Rice Lake on reducing space threats through norms, rules and principles of responsible behaviors. From the d. O. D. Perspective, the united States Leadership in the development of a rulesbased order for space activities reaps benefit for u. S. Civil, commercial, scientific and National Security space operators. As space activities worldwide become more prolific and more varied, voluntary, nonbinding international norms standards and guideline of responsible behavior can benefit u. S. National security and foster a conducive environment for growing global space activities. Thank you for your time and attention and i look forward to your questions. Thank you very much, mr. Hill. I appreciate that. Ill ask members one more time to please mute your microphones. There is still some Background Noise. Now we will hear from general whiting. Chairman cooper, Chairman Castro, ranking Member Lamborn. Ranking member maliotakis and zij wish committee minneapolis thank you for the tune to testify as command on the u. S. Space Force Perspective toward creating a framework for rules based order in space. Im honored to join mr. Hill and our partners at the State Department, mr. Turner and mr. Moore whose leadership and insights greatly contribute toward ensuring the safety, security, stability and longterm sustainability of u. S. Spate activities. I have the distinct privilege to lead and represent guardians and airmen of space Operations Command providing combat ready isr led, space and secure combat forces to the joint force. Its from the perspective of our role to generate, present and sustain these forces that i testify here before you today. Now, aligned under our nations newest service our mission is to protect america and allies in a from and in to space now and into the future. As u. S. Space commands space Vrs Service Component we accomplish this mission through our headquarters present present and sustain tasks with Spchlt Pok West a had headquarters we present to command at vanedened Rk Air Force base in california. Mo plan integrate and assess global space operations. Our Mission Execution benefits from decades of Experience Operating in space. While demonstrating safe, professional and responsible behavior. In fact, given our imperative to help keep the domain safe our command in partnership with what what was our Combatant Command at the time u. S. Strategic Command And Food is u. S. Space command has for many years with the support of congress been providing orbital conjunction assessments to any Space Owner and operator around the globe. While also making available Space Track. Org, the foster Openness And Transparency in the tracking of tens of thousands of objects on orbit. As more actors come to space, the domain is changing. With an increased risk of collisions, as well as miscalculations or misunderstandings. Its incumbent on the department to continue Space Leadership through demonstrating and acknowledging responsible behavior in space, such as the widespread sharing of space situational awareness information. Today, we support the shift of nonmilitary Space Traffic Management to the department of commerce. Thus allowing the department of defense to focus on directed military functions in our protect and defend mission. Nevertheless, the u. S. Space vrs will collaborate with the department of commerce by providing the authoritytative Space Catalog and identifying and annualizing specific behaviors to ensure safe, professional and sustainable operations on orbit, while further enhancing trust with allies in establishing new bonds with emerging space faring nations. However we have long understood that our nation is strongest economically, militarily and diplomatically when we have freedom of operation in a secure, stable and assessable space domain. It is in it is the position of the u. S. Space vrs that the voluntary nonlegally Binding Transparency and Confidence Building measures guidelines and norms on responsible behavior to include and understanding of what constitutes safe and professional conduct would be immensely helpful toward the moigs to protect the u. S. And alis in, from and to space. In concert with the secretary of States Leadership of the whole of Government Approach to establish norms, the u. S. Space vrs provides department of defense a capability to model that behavior and promote internationally accepted standards. I thank you for your support and look forward to working with congress as we continue to transform our National Security space posture. Again, im privileged to be here with my distinguished colleagues. And look forward to your questions. Sthaung so much general moore. Now we will general whiting. Now we will hear from mr. Moore. Thank you very much, Chairman Cooper. Ranking Member Lamborn. Member castro. Distinguished members of the subcommittees. Im honored to join you and my colleague from the pentagon Space Command and State Department to discuss american leadership in outer space. You have my full written testimony, which i would ask if you would kindly submit for the record. And of course ill keep my remarks to less than five minutes mr. Chairman. Without objection, so ordered. Thank you again, mr. Chairman. So thank you very much for the impressive senior bipartisan interest in vastly important issue. As we all know, and many of you noted, human activity in outer space is changing rapidly and is of both interest and importance to the american people np in 1990 only about 20 countries were active in space. Today its more than 70. The United States leads the world in new commercial space ventures. For the first time in nearly a decade and this is a tremendous and inspiring success and thanks to the private sector, americans are traveling to the international Space Station upon american made Space Launch vehicles. The success of our national Space Program increasingly depends on international engagement and therefore depends on diplomacy. The bureau of oceans and international environmental and scientific affairs together with the bureau of Arms Control Verification and compliance conducts diplomatic efforts to ensure that the behavior across all space sectors is consistent with u. S. Policy and practice, as well as with the 1967 outer Space Treaty, which a number of you have cite and associated conventions and agreements. The Biden Harris Administration has charged us to explore and use outer space to the benefit of humanity and ensure the safety, Stability And Security of outer space activities. This includes expanding and leveling the global Playing Field for the american space industry. We work directly with the partners and through u. N. Bodies and other multilateral forums to advance the principles. Key are the uncommittee for the peaceful uses of outer space mentioned before. Copus. And outer office for u. S. Space affairs. For over 60 years we worked through the organizations to build support for the united States Space policies as well as for our vision to expand human presence in space and promote the responsible use of space. As Chairman Castro noted, in february, the biden administration endorsed Nasas Artemis Program an ambitious effort to land the first Woman And Person of color on the moon and establish longterm human presence and demonstrate new technologies capabilities and business approaches needed for future exploration activities. And go on to mars. Decades ago, the apollo missions galvanized world attention. But the costs were born by the american taxpayer. Now through with cooperation partners and private industry we share the burden and the rewards. The artemis accords created by the department of state ands that aire in coordination with space faring nations are the Generations Recommitment to the print principles of outer Space Treaty envisions a safe a transparent, peaceful and prosperous Facilitying Science and commercial activities in space. As my fellow panelists testified there will be ha major geopolitical challenges as other Countries Advance Object he was. Some countries will work with us to adhere though standards of safe behavior. Others will not. Our bureau, Eoe Sechlt keeps a close eye on russian and kminz activities. We engage with them on Space Flight Safety and responsible behavior while countering actions inconsistent with the principles. U. S. Cooperation with russia is based on a governmental agreement on cooperation in the Exploration And Use of outer space, for peaceful purposes, which was recently extended through December 31st 2030. This arrangement provides a legal framework for cooperation on the international Space Station and limited Space Science and robotic Space Exploration missions. With regard to china, we maintain our engagement through a variety of means in order to understand their Space Science and exploration programs, and encourage mutually beneficial open exchange of scientific data from civil space missions. Please let me underline, american diplomatic leadership is establishing international frameworks and facilitying norms of behavior based on united States Policy and practice. Advancing peaceful norms and responsible behaviors in outer space is critical to protecting american National Security, commercial and research interests. The department of state in coordination with the interagency and national Space Counsel as well as in close consultation with congress will continue to utilize multilateral venues initiatives such as the artemis accords as well as bilateral consult aegss to support u. S. Interests in commercial space activity, responsible behavior in outer space and Space Exploration. Thank you for inviting us to testify. I welcome your questions. Thank you very much mr. Moore. And now mr. Turner. Chairman castro, Chairman Cooper, leaning Rankle Maliotakis and lamborn thank you for the opportunity to testify on the rules based space order. Im grateful for the opportunity to testify along with john hill, Lieutenant Steven Whiting and Jonathan Moore. Like others i submitted a longer statement for the record. It is incredibly appropriate that we are meeting on may 5th, the 60th insofar as of allen Shepherds Flight in freedom 7. In suborbital flight was the first step that gradually led to american astronauts orbiting the earth, landing on the Moon And Today traveling in continuous orbit around the planet. This took place in a time when there were two countries placing satellites and humans in orbit. It also took place in a time when the legal regime regarding outer space was just beginning to be developed. The development and implementation of Arms Control agreements is one of the main concerns of the State Departments bureau of Arms Control Verification and compliance, known as avc which i represent today. In that capacity, along with our State And D. O. D. Colleagues we are leading efforts for the development and implementation of voluntary, nonlegally binding measures to enhance the Safety And Security of outer space. In general, consistent with longstanding bipartisan policy, and as reflected most recently in the 2020 national Space Policy, the United States will consider proposals and concepts for Arms Control measures if they are equitable, effectively verifiable and enhance the National Security of the United States and its allies. Unfortunately, for many years the international community has been focused on a number of flawed legally binding Arms Control proposals, including recently the 2014 ruso chinese Draft Cheat Treaty on the prevention of the placement of weapons in Outers Space and Threat Or Use of outer space objects known as ppwt. The draft fails the test laid out in the u. S. National Space Policy. And the State Department mass a long record of enumerating the many flaws. In light of the shortcomings, the 2020 national Space Policy directs the the united States Government and i quote to lead the enhancement of safety, stability, security and longterm sustainability in space by promoting a framework for responsible behavior in outer space, including the pursuit of effective implementation of best practices, standards and norms of behavior, end quote. President bidens 2021 interim strategic National Security guidelines also affirms that the United States will lead in promoting smard norms and forging new agreements in outer space. The United States believes that the development and implementation of norms of behavior can reduce risks to interNational Security and stability through increasing predictability, enhancing operational safety and reducing risks of misper semgss. There by considering the prevention of conflict. Thats why in 2020 the United States worked with our close allies to advance a new united nations General Assembly resolution titled reducing space threats through norms, rules and principles of responsible behaviors. We believe this resolution can serve as the first step of a process to describe the threats to space systems, to develop ideas for responsible behaviors designed to manage perceived threats and risks to space systems and consider the establishment of channels for direct communications to manage perceptions. As such, it providing a pragmatic alternate toev flawed russian and chinese Arms Control proposals. And many agree with that approach. The resolution was adopted by the unGeneral Assembly this last fall with 164 votes for, and only 12 against, among them, russia, china, iran, syria, north korea, cuba and venezuela. On may 3rd, 2021 pursuant to the resolutions calls for proposed next steps, the State Department submitted our governments views to the u. N. Security general. Mr. Chairman, for many years, the international community has been focused on flawed legally binding space Arms Control proposals at a time when the outer Space Environment has grown in complexity and become contested. Its time for a new approach primarily focused at least for now upon voluntary, nonlegally binding norms, rules and principles of responsible behavior in space. Developing and implementing these sorts of measures can help create a safer, more stable and predictable Space Environment for all space actors. Thank you very much. And i look forward to the committees questions. Thank you very much mr. Turner. Wed like to thank all the witnesses. And now we will turn to member questions. I will begin with myself. But i only have two questions. And i would encourage all members to keep it as brief as possible, because we have a large number of members on the web excall. First question you ended your statement mr. Turner but all witnesses seconded this theme of volunteer, nonlegally binding efforts in in regard. So it cements like weve given up on the idea of ropes or any punishment were just going for spider webs instead. Is that the best we can do . Is that a way to get people to be in a more cooperative frame of mind . Do we need more than that . I thank you, sir for that question. I think we are trying to make the best out of what is possible at this given moment in time. Certainly we do not exclude the possibility of legally binding treaties down the road. But thats not where we are given kind of competition posed by China And Russia as discussed by some of the speakers. So we are starting with the approach that can you can maybe start building with likeminded countries to develop these norms, get them to practice the norms, create Peer Pressure so that the norms will be respected by others and maybe over time develop more farreaching measures. Thank you. Thank you, my next question would be for general whiting. Weve talked about transferring Space Traffic Management out of the Air Force for some time. It seems to have taken years. Im hopeful that the Space Force will be able to get it done on or on a more timely basis. Because i dont want the space faring nations to turn to other nations for their clear guidance on when possible collisions might take place. How quickly can we get the department of commerce to pick up this ball and run with it in. Mr. Chairman, thank you for that question. Of course, we are eager to work with the department of commerce. And we found them to be an organization that is eager to take this work on. And so were working diligently to do that because we do care deeply with the Safety And Security of the domain which is why we made Space Track oregon available as we have over the years. So my sungds now that the now that they have received resources to work towards this goal, we are working with them over the next couple years to transfer that work. They have been partnered with us at our operating locations such as the vandenberg Air Force base. And we look forward to continuing that. I cant speak to exactly their time line but were eager to get this traversed in the next couple of years. Thank you very much. Ill turn to mr. Lamborn. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Mr. Hill excuse me mr. Whiting, in your opinion has space already been weaponized by countries like China And Japan . And what do you make of the satellites that reportedly shadow over satellites . Congressman, i have learned yes we have seen a weaponization of space from China And Russia. If we point back to 2007, really the Inflection Point in the 21st century where from the fall of the the Berlin Wall and the disillusion of the soviet union in the around 1990, until 2007, many of those threats that had come up in space in the cold war had gone fallow. But in 2007 we saw the chinds conduct a very irresponsible test. We continue to have about 3,000 pieces of debris on orbit we continue to track. Thats about 10 of the total amount of of objects that we track on orbit still interest that test 14 years ago. We continue to see the chinese building satellites like the xinan 17 a Chinds Satellite with a robotic arp that could grapple u. S. Or satellites. They have multiple Ground Laser systems blinding or disable our satellites. Russia has groundbased laysers that could jam or blind our satellites. Its probably they field more this decade. The russians have have have polish antisatellite weapons onboard in orbit including cosmos 2519, a russian on orbit Weapons System which birthed out subsequent sprp satellite. And we have seen a subsequent third orred second object three total come out of that. Cosmos 2519. We believe that second object is a projectile. And then we saw cosmos 2542, launched in late 2019 which appears to be a similar Prototype Weapon to cosmos 2519, synchronized in orbit with a united States Government satellite. And when the united States Government moved our satellite the russian cosmos 2542 resynchronized its orbit. Russia is a sophisticated space actor. They must have known what they were doing. Obviously we do not support weapons tests near our satellites. And then finally the russia huss a nudal ground based missile designed to stroi satellites in low Earth Orbit. But with the weaponization of space we do not want a war extending into space and want to do everything possible to deter that. Thank you. And i appreciate that general whiting. Mr. Turner, im finishing with h you, in late 2019, and weve already touched on this, russell launched a satellite that deployed a Sub Satellite and its not the first time the russians have done this, and how the russians being told that this behavior is unacceptable and if so what was their response . Mr. Turner. Yes story it sorry it took me a second to turn my sound off of it. Yes we have met with the russians on some of these issues. Most of the discussions we have had are less than satisfactory. Sometimes the russians do not want to acknowledge certain activities are taking place. We have done our best to bring experts, to some of these meetings, to discuss these issues. But thats where the russians have really not engaged in a satisfactory way. Finally have there been any other international discussions with the russians or chinese, or defining standards and behavior for rendezvous and proximity operations . Mr. Turner . Yes no not to my knowledge actually, as you are saying as we are all saying in our statements we are just at the beginning of this process to try to define to define what some of these behaviors are will be, and you know like how much space to leave between bodies out and space, and how one might approach them. And communications notifications, a number of things like that. We are just at the beginning of this process now. So no direct communication with the chinese on this, even though there has been some preliminary discussions with the russians . I think our d. O. D. Would have a better fix on that kind of a question. General lighting, my time is almost gone very quickly . Yes Mister Congressman, im not aware of any discussion with the chinese and i would defer to mr. Hill. Congressman, if you would like we do not in the Defense Department have in direct engagement with china regarding space. There are statutory limitations on the d. O. D. s interactions with china as with russia these days. Thank you Mister Chairman i yield back. I apologize, i have a bit more of an answer for the right for the ranking member if i may. Okay go ahead. We do engage with china on outer space, through bilateral and multilateral generals. Our goal is to ensure Space Flight Safety, and responsible behavior in outer space. We have been working to try to encourage china to improve communication between our satellite operators to avoid potential delusions in orbit. An example of this would be coordinating with trying to ensure that their Navigation Satellite System does not cause radio frequenting interference with our gps satellites, and we are trying to encourage interoperability between us. We do have Discussions China is not part of the artemis accords, but we expect him to follow the norms and standards. We have been clear with them about that, as it has been referred to in a different context, and the results have not been consistent or satisfactory. Thank you thank you i take. Back thank you mister more. Now Chairman Castro. Thank you chairman, i have a question about the artemis accords for the panel. They were endorsed by the biden ministration, and have a Significance Step forward in recognizing our actions in space its also the first time since the. Apollo program, or new administration maintain the goal of the previous administration. Assigned a Continuity Fee that raises the chances the Artemis Program exceeds succeeds in practicality, what is the bonding effect of the accords for their signatories . What role with the Artemis Accord Play for the behavior in space, and finally so far nine countries have signed the artemis accord, including canada, uk ukraine uae, do you expect other countries to join and what steps is the administration taking to expand support of the accords . Mister chairman, thank you very much for that question. When we for started working with our colleagues in nasa, and the previous administration on the concept of the artemis accords there was some discussion about making them legally binding. As that discussion continued, particularly with our space faring partners, it became clear that legally binding arrangements would require ratification, and could take a long time to negotiate. So the artemis accords instead, as previously drawn up in the agreements, by the previous administration, are not legally binding. Their mutual statements of value for cooperation in space. But today they do not have financial implications with regards to who has signed on to the artemis accords, you are right mr. Chairman, nine countries have signed on to them so far. We are engaged in active discussions with a number of other countries that are interested in signing on. Throughout the world. This is a project that invites every country, and many countries with whether they are our long term allies are new friends theyre interested in joining us in a transparent effort to create standards in space. All right, so anyone else . No okay, i yield back chairman. Thank you chairman. Ranking member malliotakis. Thank you i have a more general Question Id like to know how the Space Department and department of defense relate on activities. When it comes to more about adversaries, but im just looking for more insight on this i dont mind starting small rolling. You know the State Department has the legal and physically you know the foreign policy outreach, we are very active in multilateral organizations because we have to do that competitively with others for instance in the conference on the or any number of and we have of course regular consultations with our nato allies and with our asian allies, and this is what our job is basically about. To go around and talk to people, and raise support for the way we want to do things. And the United States is very fortunate to have a very broad network of allies which allows us to leverage our efforts and multiply them in a way that is generally not available to countries such as Russia And China. The United States has a distinct advantage, and that is where consulting with our allies and building support for everything we do, is really one of the most effective ways that United States can achieve the kind of goals that we have been talking about today. And of course every step we take, is even though we may have the lead on the foreign policy issues, all of these activities especially involving Arms Control and security issues are what we do as a result of a very intensely inter Agency Process that brings in all the players, the joint staffs, and ostp its interests extra and nasa. Depending on what is being discussed and whats at stake but its quite an intensive process. Does the department of defense . Yes yes i would be glad to give you some concrete examples where we are typically supporting State Department in these things because were talking about diplomacy of the nation, and the states department lead. But mr. Turner had mentioned the talks, the civil space talks that his office has with china. And you mentioned the global positioning system. We will provide a d. O. T. Specialty expert to support him, because in the department of defense they run the global positioning system. And those talks sometimes relate to Spectrum And De confliction. The talks last summer, between United States and russia, in vienna in the context of space security exchange. And this was related to some of the talks that were going on, and of course the State Department led an organized it, but the department of defense we sent one of general whitings colleague, and general shaw was there, and we were able to present defense perspectives in space, and diplomatic perspectives relative to the positions that russia was taking, and some of the russian behavior that we find problematic. Third example would be the united kingdom, resolution that passed in the General Assembly and the united States Response to it. Again we walked very closely in how the United States would put this together in a position. And the State Department can be confident, that they were carrying forward with something that is good for the National Security, from our perspective, here as well as good from the the broader perspectives that they have to represent across the government. Great. Im running out of time, but if you can fit it in just curious the thought Russia And China, has developed a Research Station on the moon, and the concerns that we should be aware of on that . On them wanting to do that . I can comment that we will keep a close eye on that. That is probably most i can comment on this point. Thank you. The gentleladys time has almost expired. I yield back thank you. Thank you. The order of questioning for the next four members, will be mr. Wilson, mr. Garamendi, and mr. Issa and now first mr. Langevin. Thank you i would like to appreciate the discussion today, and let me begin several think tanks have noted that cyber and directed energy attacks are growing threats for space assets. Mr. Turner, and mr. More, to what extent have these topics being discussed regarding standards of a State Based Behaviors . Mister chairman i will start with you . The report . Okay what we have done, in the report that we just sent to the united nations, some of the issues oh sorry thats not it, we have listed a number of the different kinds of threats that would be in Space And Today there are no standards for those threats at all. And the systems are being developed, there are no international rules to govern that. But it is part of our contribution, we had a whole section describing the kind of threats that are out there. Ground to space, space to space, Ground Ground Space to ground, we talked about radio frequency interference, directed energy weapons, cyber threats to command control, tax on Space Infrastructure, missiles that were discussed earlier, robotics etc. So we are at the stage of the process where we are identifying the kinds of threats that are out there. Eventually this will lead to the principles of behavior for how nations should behave in space. But there are no formal agreements covering a number of these issues. As any comment from you mr. . You are on mute i believe . Thank you congressman, and abc they focus more on the security side, we focused more on the civilian side, trying to set the standards and enforce u. S. Interests. So i apologize i do not have more for you at this time. Okay okay will let me ask you this, with respect to cyber we already have norms related to the targeting of threats, i would be would like to hear from all the witnesses, do you support designating space as a critical Infrastructure Sector because dhs is currently doing mandated review of that. I could step in here briefly and, first, id like to clean up something i said previously. I referenced the civil talks that mr. Mores office, of course, not mr. Turns office [inaudible] i spoke previously. On this one, respect to the critical Infrastructure Question, my understanding is that space has been included as a critical infrastructure in the homeland security context. And there are individual defense assets that may be also included as defense critical infrastructure. Okay. I wasnt aware of that designation, but well take that one and double check on it we want to. Im sure it should be designated as critical infrastructure. So understanding that we have to be able to adequately monitor the environment to enforce responsible behavior, general wittenberg, i would you assess our [inaudible] and capabilities. [inaudible] any other thoughts on designating spaces critical infrastructure. I assume you agree . Congressmen, if i may, if i may offer a view, that is worth taking a more deeper look at. Im not certain that Space Hasnt been designated as critical Infrastructure Sector. Obviously, the question of cybersecurity is of prominent interest to the Biden Harris Administration, and many of us at the State Department are working on that, perhaps our somewhat more preferably. But in terms of space thats a critical structure interest structure, we have to reveal that i get back to. Fair enough. I think my time is about to expire. [inaudible] any other businesses on critical infrastructure . Mister congressman, nothing on the critical infrastructure piece, but if youd like, ill Briefly Talk about our space situational wellness, or as we call it space [inaudible] awareness capabilities. We have the best of the world. Thats why we make available so much of that information to his Base Track docked or to promote a safe, secure, stable says des moines. With where respect and the threats we talk about we need to improve that debate in Awareness Capability so we can help to know when any future norms are being violated, and certainly from our perspective, watch for threats and give good indications and warning of a potential bad actors in space. Thank you. Gentlemanss time has expired. Thank you, Mister Chairman. Mr. Wilson . Thank you [inaudible] and diana Doug Lamborn for coordinating this important hearing. I additionally out to thank the forward. Mrs. Each one of you come across as very impressive and your service to our country is very, very much appreciated. In terms of questions, general whiting, what progress has been made in our relation realizing our international space partnerships with a combined space Operations Center . Mister congressman, thank you for that question. Weve made some substantial progress through the combined space operations initiative. We have no have allied personnel across many of our formations to the group including combined Space Operation Center Advantage Bark and u. S. Space command, are combatting right, now has a named operation, operation defender, which somebody southside up to. We operate daytoday in space with us and our Sea Spark at brandenburg was there a nationally military Space Origin centers on obeyed daily basis. So that unique pairing of countries that we are blessed to have [inaudible] an advantage for the United States, and were excited about that progress. I share your view. About being blessed. And with regard to, that where the leading countries that are cover cooperating . Its some of ours closest allies, mr. Congressman. Like canada, the united kingdom, australia, and others. Well again, best wishes on that. And mr. Hale, expanding commercial pace Space Infrastructure is uniquely american solution to increasing our capability of resilience. Im impressed with the ingenuity of the private sector to augment Government Efforts to keep space accessible and straight ball. But is the appropriate level of Government Oversight necessary to ensure Coach Marshal into are well integrated into a comprehensive world space framework. How should the administration incorporate them into a future defense based strategy . Thank, you congressman wilson. On the commercial space, theres a number of going on, first of all with respect your question, can i touch on regulation, in one respect. And there is a major overhaul of remote sensing regulation that took place in the past year, which d. O. D. Worked very closely to really bring us out of the 2006 year of the old regulation into the 20 twenties era, where we have much more prolific a commercial capabilities and we need to light that competitive sector compete around the world. And the Defense Department benefits from having that strong commercial sector. So, big change in the philosophy. There we also, of course, leverage u. S. Commercials to base innovation, how special launches of off commercial Launch Service providers, for example. Theres a growing commercial space situational awareness capabilities that we inter leave with our own capabilities. There areand so, depending on t, we use more or less. Theres some areas where commercial doesnt buy the great market, so we have to put more government investment. Other places, like satellite communications, tremendous opportunities to leverage commercial. Its exciting to see that the mutual benefit in and, mr. Turner, the june 2020 does offense a Space Strategy includes several lines of effort, one of which is to better inform international and public audiences to the growing adversarial threats a space. What can congress do to ensure that our constituents understand the benefits of an accessible, stable space . Sorry, im sometimes a little [inaudible] i forget that im on mute. Todays hearing is one such step, i think. Because this is available on live streaming, so presumably others besides all of us can hear whats going on. I think americans need to be made aware of how much they actually depend on space for their not only for the security, but also for their prosperity. We do a certain amount of outreach as well, which is very effective in that regard. And, of course, i think one of the one of the things that ensures that this will reach the right audience is that thus far are efforts in space have been supported by a bipartisan consensus in congress, and its sort of like, you know the old saying, that domestic policy ends on americas shores. I think it also needs to end on where we start to leave the Atmosphere And Jet into outer space. So, at leave it at that for right now. Thank you very much, indeed. Share a Mann Cooper is leading the bipartisanship. I owe back thanks to the gentleman. Now, mr. Garamendi, are you still with us . Mr. Garamendi . If not, Mister Issa . Are you still with us . We will [inaudible]. Okay thank you. I think im going to continue pretty much with the same line of questioning that weve been doing. Ill change it up a little bit. General, i think maybe you can handle this sort of as a joint representative. In the domains that we have operated on during your career, see, land, air, we have international rules and conventions and theyre broadly agreed to and signed in on by all of the parties weve mentioned here today would you say thats fair to say . Yes, sir, i would. And weve secured today we will have today, tomorrow, or certainly last weekend at the next three weeks, we will have iranian gunboats that will enter our space and endanger our ships. We may or may not have another taking of our maritime folks. And of course, china is building islands in complete violation of right of ways for countries throughout that region, is beginning to encroach, or to [inaudible] a lot of people to have what have been hundreds of years of free travel. So would you say that as we look to space, is there any special reason not to believe that all the factors that affect here, Land And Sea around our hemisphere, that any of those will be significantly different, in other words can we not expect at least similar activities as we have similar bad actors, or the same bad actors who are already in space, such as China And Russia . Mister congressman, thank you for the question. Certainly, i think those analogies are useful, but if you push them too far, of course, analogies will start to break down. Because there is sovereign maritime space, theres sovereign in space. There is no sovereign Space Space in space, and so there are some differences that well work through. But we certainly believe in Space Force that the establishment of voluntary, non legallybinding norms of responsible behavior will help us to identify when others are acting outside of those norms, and when they are acting irresponsibility, much like when we are on the interstate and everyones following the rules, you can quickly see who those are who are dangerous and not following the rules. So we do think that would be a very positive step for the space domain. And i agree with you, and as a followup, and i do agree that there is certainly sovereign space, but using the 2007 in which china demonstrated its ability to destroy a satellite in deep space, albeit its own, but for the purpose of showing us that theyre but for their good graces, that could have been one of our satellites or a number of them that activity certainly was outside of any reasonable interpretation of their sovereign rights, wouldnt you agree . Congressman, with while some [inaudible] irresponsible, mr. , congressman we 3000 P Series of debris in orbit that we continue to track for 20 years after. [inaudible] i cant imagine what led them to do that. And to continue to pollute the domain and put us all at risk. So the history of our planet being at relative peace for the last half of the last century was primarily through a combination of, you know, international agreements and a degree of enforcement that the United States and its allies, notably nato and others, in forest with periodic enforcement by the united nations. So in my remaining time, if you could ask, answer, sort of, one of those great questions for alltime, isnt it fair to say that we must go forward and establish those international rules, draw in as many conventions signers, including potential bad actors as possible, but also form those alliances that would mimic in space, if necessary, the same sort of alliances that have in fact kept as relatively peaceful for the last 70 plus years . Dont we sort of have to do all of them, reduce the un, reduce the agreements, but also build those alliances with the expectation that just as in the past, the future, there will be those who will not respect the very agreements that theyve signed . Mister congressman, we certainly seen Nato Wreck my recognize face as a [inaudible] demand in the last couple of years. And so we see many of our likeminded countries that we operate with putting more and more Interest And Concern on space, and that, i think it proves to our benefit. Because we can now coalesce around these norms of responsible behavior, and as those begin to establish them in our space State Department colleagues can work for the degree months down the. What i think its good to bring more and more allies and partners into these discussions. Thank you. Thank you, Mister Chairman, i yield back. The gentlemanss time is expired. I would like to give general whiting the opportunity to clarify something. I think he may have left the impression that so far there is not much thats sovereign in space. When i would say that each individual nations capsules or astronauts are, in fact, sovereign entities, even though theyre traveling through space. Thank you, Mister Chairman. I was, i was specifically referring to the physical space itself, which is in the outer space domain, not to manmade objects that are in out space. Thank you for that clarification. Thank you. Mr. Garamendi . [inaudible] i stepped away for a moment. Clearly we have a situation in which on the military of cited side of it, space is a domain for war and, unfortunately, we are all not just the United States, China And Russia, but others rapidly militarizing space with the anticipation that they could be trouble in the future. And that it happens to create an extraordinary risk when all of our countries [inaudible] and space for early knowledge of what the other may be doing. Im going to leave that aside, mr. Issa went into it in subtitle. I want to deal with the commercial side of. It were seeing a very rapid evolution of evolution of commercial activity in space for many different reasons. Almost so that our military no longer depends solely on itself for highly detailed photos of whats going on in the world, where theyre reporting and on and on. So lets talk about norms on the commercial side of the activity, putting aside for a moment in the military side, for which i suspect the norm is easily the strongest one win at the end of the process, and will all be dead. But lets go ahead for the moment on the commercial site. Its strong wherever you want. Lets go with d. O. D. , what is your interest in the commercial, and then to the other two witnesses, ending up with the State Department . Yes the Congressman Garamendi were very much interested in that. I think its an example of the d. O. D. In the community working with respect to norms, it has been the sponsorship that the effects of advanced Research Group and the acronym was and im sorry i forget the name of the acronym, but it describes bringing together commercial people with government. And it talks about how to do on orbit surfacing. And figuring out what are the proper ways to do this. When do you need to have permission. It is a User Community Interest group, and as you think back a long time in history, the international Telecommunications Union started out in that same way. Community of interest coming together on it. I think it sort of going off on its own, the commercial community will probably take more of the league in that. But that is the kind of example where we will partner with them and see how do we encourage the stakeholders to take on the public, the interest of the commons. Thank you very much. Congressman garamendi if i may if i may jump in as well. As has been mentioned earlier in the hearing today, one of the difficulties we face with Russia And China, they are not commercial activities, they are state supported activities. When it comes to the United States, where we have such amazing commercial problem partners, like space x, and the ones that have allowed us to get to the iss without having to rely on russia, they operate at very high standards and we support those standards. We they helped set the standard for the rest of the world. And through artemis accords, working with those values that they have the standards, and other countries and their space operators are interested in becoming part of that process. One of the problems with the process there are 90 countries in it, and it doesnt always work with it works with consensus, so nothing gets done if everyone does not agree. And United States usually sets the standards, to make the standard for the world with the artemis accords. Thank you, anybody else want to jump in on this . Just briefly. This is Bruce Turner again, just building on whats Jonathan Moore just said. You know what our Commercials Sector needs, you start to set the standards, that becomes a tacit standards for everyone, and countries like Russia And China are maybe forced to deal with those standards as well. And apply them to their own efforts. So again that is one of the advantages of developing the systems. Thank you and i will just and in 20 seconds. It seems to me on the military side, were not going to get very far. Its always good to talk and talk is fair, but on the commercial side, you know talking about allies on the military side, using our current leadership and develop a commercial set of standards, and then allow the others to join that would be very very fruitful. And mr. Cooper i yield back. Thank you the gentlemans time has expired. The next four questionnaires will be mr. Moulton mr. Waltz now mr. Moulton. Thank you very much chairman, i would like to talk about effective enforcement. Without effective enforcement, rules and norms obviously even with our own activity and space, do nothing to impede the line of activity by our adversaries. I ordered space im not saying its not a goal worth pursuing, but i want to make sure its just not a symbolic endeavor. If we do not intend to enforce the voluntary, lawn non legallybinding rules, do we expect our adversaries to abide by norms in space, so what happens when they violate it . Sorry sorry. We see this issue and cyberspace, we have actors who are still hacking into u. S. Networks, without thinking about retribution, and for that we can name and shame to a certain extent, but what are the real consequences of setting down rules that are then going to be ignored . How do we actually respond and deal with this more effectively . Thats you know those are some really good questions. It is always a very complicated issue, compliance with whether its legally blinded obligations, or whether youre talking about politically binding and logically binding commitments in other areas. Both each one has its advantages and its disadvantages. The advantage of a treaty, its a legal obligation. So that in some ways, you could argue that a violation is more straightforward. And if youve ever worked with a lawyer you know one of the things that you get into, if you get into these very very difficult and complicated interpretations of what the treaty actually says. That could also be a very long process. One of the advantages you know just because its not a legally binding norm, does not mean its not a norm. And does not mean that you cannot call somebody out for violating that norm. Nor doesnt mean that you cannot take potential action, if an actor is not complying with that particular norm. In some cases you may have more flexibility to react in those kinds of situations, precisely precisely because it is not a legally binding arena. And lastly i would just, with all of these kinds of norms, even when sir certain actors violate those norms, they pay a price off and for doing so. In todays social media environment, or whatever you want to call it, so much depends on the narrative of who is doing the right thing, and who is not doing the right thing. And that could still be useful and you know to put diplomatic and public pressure on maligned actors. Im one of the few members of congress who is not a lawyer, but it seems to me this has to be a lot more clear. And hoping that one of our adversaries will be shamed on social media, does not seem like an effective strategy here. General i have a question for you on the same theme. So, a rules based order and any demand requires a certain amount of transparency and trust. I understand that there is a current Efforts Effort to rule declassification of satellites and activities to be more transparent and to publicly communicate about our space operations more easily. How are you integrating with this effort to ensure that we have enough transparency to allow for verification of our own behavior while still protecting systems and activity that we are not prepared to share . Thank you Mister Congressman for that question. Certainly i would say that we are the most transparent country when it comes to our activities and space. Through the website that i mentioned earlier, Space Tracked up or get that we make available to the world. Because we care about having long term operations there, and we have had an effort ongoing for the last several years, to continually make more information available. Of course just like another domains, were not going to show exactly where our ships and airplanes are. Let me interrupt, do you think you have that Balance Right . Are we still on the side of too much being classified to be effective as using the transparency we need to do and force on mr. Congressman i would say its not an instate its journey, were constantly working to get that Balance Right. Weve made important strides, and we will continue to do those reviews to make as much information as possible, to as many people as possible to ensure that that it domain is safe. I yield back mr. Chairman. Thank you thank you the the gentleman for yielding. So mr. Waltz are you with us . Calling mr. Waltz. If he is not mr. Carbajal . Here i am, im having a few glitches here. Thank you Mister Chairman, i apologize for the technical difficulty i was having. One of the most pressing issues to be addressed, is the mitigation the Space Force is tracking about debris with other objects, which are too small to track. While the Space Debris guidelines of the united Nations Committee, on the peaceful uses of modern space, was endorsed by the united nations General Assembly in 2007, recently reported that the voluntary guidelines like measures of accountability, and compliance. And it is the biggest contributor for greater collision. Based on the current level of Space Debris, and voluntary international policies, will there be a point where there will be an unacceptable risk poised by Space Debris which will be at risk for United States. For both national and security and commercial operations . I certainly want to communicate, we are concerned about the growing congestion in space, but certainly over the next several years, we have planes or plans of story and processes in place, to continue to safely operate. But we do support the inter government inter governmental issues, to reduce debris, and i will refer to my colleague mr. Hill to talk about what the Department Offense is doing department of defenses doing in that respect. Mister hill . Yes. Sorry there was a little noise. Yes so we are in 2019, the united States Government updated our orbital Debris Mitigation practices, that go well beyond with the united nation practices are. And in fact, they drew from a lot of department of defense and existing regulations. Providing much clear statements of the hazard risks, more options for how to get debris out of orbit, particularly from higher orbits overtime. And the, there is absolutely as the general had said, there is a concern in a low Earth Orbit region, the yells things get crowded and in some of the polar orbits, that Debris Mitigation is important, and the emergence and the commercial sector and some government support, some places potentially active debris removal, is encouraging. But i think there is a lot of work to be done in this respect. Thank you very much, and general whiting you say that some discussions can be challenging, but more often than not there is not an agreement on what constitutes responsible behavior. The ability to have responsible behavior, and to call it irresponsible behavior, what has been the biggest barrier to moving forward to create an international accepted framework . Mr. Congressman, each of the countries that we have Milton Mill Discussion with, and these are allied countries, they all have their own policies and traditions, and we work through those informs like the war games that we conduct every year, but through that we find there is a coalescing around some generally accepted ways of operating, that are responsible safe and professional. So we think through dialog we can work through those kinds of issues. Thank you, and mr. Turner and mr. Moore commercial companies are investing in launch their voices. Space technologies, and they have the propensity to be dual use, which creates new challenges. Is the federal government engaging with this is part of your discussions and, developing rules and norms, and can you comment on how technology is being considered. I think i would defer to my colleague for the, commercial aspects of that but from a Security Standpoint of course, this is one of the issues with developing rules of behavior, and one of the issues when you talk about threats in space, and were acutely aware of the fact that a number of things are used just by nature. So we can have benefits or be used against satellites. So its one of those issues that needs to be talked about, and yet again why we are in favor of these rules. Yes Congressman Carbajal Bruce touched exactly on some of these subjects of dual use, we are trying to do support the development of the commercial sector, and this is a place where companies in the United States are leading the way, and setting the standard. Hoping again to return us to i. S. As, so we are not dependent on other countries for that. But as part of the broader efforts, to build partnerships and to share new vision on space, we are again we are very grateful for the strong endorsement of this administration for that and for those schools. And its part of the discussion with commercial sector out of time. We tried to get mr. Waltz earlier. He was not available. Mr. Brooks was next and he has logged off. So i think the next questioner will be mr. [inaudible] so the next question, i think, will be mr. Lieu lieu. Thank you Chairman Castro fault this important meeting. I am very thankful for expertise and [inaudible] today. In the effort and now i do my views of duty at the Space And Missile Systems Center as los angeles Air Force base. I am thrilled that the United States Space Command has chosen to locate space systems command, one of three metric amounts under the Space Force at, at los angeles Air Force base, and with every passing day, space becomes more important. I also want to just clarify the critical Infrastructure Question that Congress Man langevin asked earlier. The reason there has been confusion is theres approximately 16 critical Infrastructure Sectors, such as the chemical sector, communications sector, the community sector. Space is not one of them. However, if there is, for example, a space communications satellite, that would arguably be captured within the communications sector. Thats been designated as critical infrastructure. To alleviate this confusion at Capture Everything is based, im working on legislation that would in fact designate space as Infrastructure Sector. And that goes in line with both the former administrations and this administrations focus on space. And so my first question is to secretary more. I can note, first of all, that you speak at least eight languages. Im super impressed by that. But i also note is that your title doesnt include space anywhere in it. At the same time, the department of defense has created an entire Space Force dedicated just to space. Do you think its a good idea, or shouldnt we have a Space Department elevate space through a standalone bureau . Congressman lieu, thank you very much for your service, both in uniform ended the house of representatives, and thank you for an excellent question. Im very pleased to tell you that across the list of endeavors in the bureau of oceans and international environmental and scientific affairs, we have nine action offices. One is the office of space affairs. It is staffed by a number of diplomats and professional experts with advanced degrees, including in astrophysics. It is the Core Team that coordinates diplomatic efforts on space with other countries, and in lockstep with the pentagon, with Space Command, of course with nasa. And congratulations to Administrator Nelson on his recent complete confirmation. We have a very distinguished team that although space may not appear in their title but because of the talent we have here in the bureau, which has a very fairly long name as it stands, i can assure you that Spaces Law Front and center for four. All of these reasons, we are grateful for the opportunity to testify today and responded not just reports today, but to work with you and your staff as we have in the past, and with many officers in congress, to help explain and gain Information And Guidance from you. Thank you. I just requested you and [inaudible] consider Space Dot as an office, but as a viewer. But next question goes to general whiting work. Thank you for your service, as well, so. So we have currently, other countries such as China And Russia, who dont necessarily follow norms, and as you know, chinas done and i satellite weapons tests. So we could have two possibilities either we allow or countries to do and isolate weapons testing, where we allow no country to do it, as a binding legal regime. Do you have any preference for that from the french perspective . Do you think the u. S. Should be allowed to do and i satellite tests or as other countries that do, or should know cages be allowed to do that, as its illegal . Thank you Mister Congressman for the question. From my perspective, the real, the real danger with those tests and were talking about tests, now are the long lived debris, like the chinese is that to be that we continue have today. I think we do absolutely want to establish a norm that no actions in space, no Countrys Action in space, should create longlived debris. And with that, so, i would defer to mr. Hill on questions of legality regarding the a set test. Mr. [inaudible] thank you. To pick up on what general whiting just said, in terms of tests, youre correct. There is no, there is no Prohibition Today own anti satellite tests. There is quite a bit of scorn to be earned as china and in 2007 with their tests. The question, though, if you were to try and prohibit weapons in space is what is the definition of a weapon, and what are the systems, which are so inherently dual use their zoos can be used for communications, losers can be used as weapons, and it goes on from there so its the practicalities, the ferrets viability, enforceability of that. And so what we really have to focus on in the long run is reducing the benefits that people might seek to derive from employing capabilities as weapons. That goes to resilience and to [inaudible] reassurance, which is a longer target. Thank you, i yield back. The gentlemanss time has expired. I did not know that Wrister Moore was so multilingual, but i did notice from the video that he has the largest office of anyone on the calls. So, congratulations on that. Mr. Waltz is back. So now is mr. s turn. Thank you, Mister Chairman. And thank you, everyone. Mister hill is a is an osc alum. Its great to see you in this capacity. Its been a long time. I want to ask you about thinking through how we establish deterrence in space. And, you know, as many of you have said, and many of my colleagues have said, our entire modern economy could be greatly adversely impacted should some of these assets be taken down. As we are seeing the chinese in particular increased their alliance as baidu comes online, their gps comes online, their military increasingly projects, and is becoming increasingly dependent, how do we attack established deterrence spaces . I know the Vice Chairman is working on a Declassification Effort but, you know, i want them to know what we can do, and what we cant do, and what we are willing to do as a deterrent measure, and what efforts are there are along those lines . Mr. Hill, good to you first, but anyone free feel free to answer. Congress Man Hill its good to see you, after many years. Deterrence in space at, theres been quite a focus on this. And i started to mention in my previous response, for a nation that is highly dependent on space, both in our civil life, our daily commercial life, private life, as well as in our military life, it is fundamentally important it should be a norm to have reliability, mutual assurance of capabilities, at the level of commensurate to the level on which we rely on those capabilities. That was the case when we didnt have adversary threats of space. And when systems were first designed. You had them decide for a natural environment threats, [inaudible] you did that. As these commercial as these more modern conventional threats have emerged, we obviously have to transition our architectures, and this goes back to some of the commercial points earlier. Leveraging the innovation, thats coming out of the commercial sector, and the commission significant cost reductions [inaudible] launch in the space capabilities themselves allows us to do entirely different architectural approaches. It takes time to transition to that. So you have to protect what you have today, but you ultimately transition to architectures that are more inherently vulnerable, and as in any other domain, you have the ability to accept, and survive, combat casualties. Thats a key part of denying the benefit of attack. With respect to the other side of the terms, the Cost And Position side of things, thats one where you may be looking a lot more across the main types of activities. It may be that the place to impose costs on somebody for an activity may not be in the space to mean. It may be elsewhere. So theres the sort of things to think about with respect [inaudible] to maybe your spate State Department Colleagues Appetizer this. What are we communicating that we are willing and capable to do . Because if thats, thats how misjudgements, miscalculations happened, and so thats you know, to your statement to our colleagues, what are we communicating now . And in terms of our capability and our will . Mr. [inaudible] from abc, again. One of the reasons we had a meeting in july with the russians about space issues was to communicate very clearly to them the kinds of concerns that we have about things that they are doing. And this is for the same reason the biden administration is [inaudible] in the beginning, strategic Stability Dialog with the russians that will cover, you know, mutual other issues as well. But the whole point is to explain very clearly to them, you know, what our concerns are, what we do not want them to do, and to try to iron out some of these rules of the road so that they know exactly what kind of risks they are taking if they engage in certain kinds of behavior. So, and you know, one of the things im most concerned about is our nuclear Command And Control systems. And, you know, when were talking about standards, in terms of how close you can get, what kind types of activities you can do now that, now that other, other countries are up in geo synchronous i think we need to be very clear on arent, but also make it clear on the air and, so we dont have those kind of catastrophic miss medications. Mister chairman, my time has expired, and iowa. Thank you. I appreciate the gentleman being so precise, thank you. Weve completed, i think, the first round of questioning, and i was going to cut it off. Weve been in session for about an hour and 45 minutes. Are there any members who have a final question they would like to ask . If not, then i want to thank the witnesses for their excellent testimony. Ill thank the members for showing up and posing such good questions. I want to thank the staff for assembling all of this. So its hard to have a reebok here in, but this went very well. And its certainly an important, and you know, possibly historic hearing that we had today, to get these efforts underway. So thank you for being part of this historic effort. The hearing in thank you, Mister Chairman. The hearing is now adjourned, with chairman causes permission. American Story Watch american History Tv this weekend on cspan 3 Author Tera Hunter speaks with the coeditors of the journal of the civil War Era about the significance of juneteenth and her book bound in Wedlock Slave and free black marriage in the 19th century. Miss hunter explains the difference between the Emancipation Proclamation and juneteenth as well as how freed people navigated family ties and relationships after the war. The journal of the civil War Era provided the video so let me introduce Todays Speaker Dr. Tera hunter is the Edwards Professor of american