In the department of africana studies at wellesley college. She received her phd from Columbia University under the direction of Eric Foner Force and freedom is her first book and fun fact she and i went through the wars together in grad school. We were in the same cohort. She is joined in conversation by Steven Hahn who needs no introduction. He is the esteemed professor of history formerly of pan and now at nyu their conversation will last for a little under an hour with time for a q a and a book signing outside afterwards and please stay for some refreshments. And also, please take this time to silence your cell phones and without further ado kelly and steve. Yeah, thank you. Would you like to start would you like me to . You can say well, thank you very much, and its really a great pleasure to be here. Let me start with kind of general comment a number of years ago. I was approached by Robert Lockhart of the university of pennsylvania, press and i was invited to coedit a new series a coedit with brian delay who teaches at the university of california at berkeley and amy drew stanley who teaches at the university of chicago a new series on american in the 19th century the university of pennsylvania, press already had this thing. Were serious and early american history and in twentieth Century History and our idea was not to publish a whole bunch of books, but actually to publish a small number of challenging new work that really cross boundaries of our understandings of the 19th century books that cross boundaries of region and of Class And Gender and of race as of now, weve published five books in this series. There are four more coming out this year and eight more under contract. And they range from Captivity And P h in the southwest to culture wars in new York City to Slavery And Emancipation in the Illinois Country of the late 18th and early 19th century to the west african roots of panafricanism. I mean really astonishing astonishingly interesting books and its all the more reason that im delighted to be here both to welcome Kelly Carter jacksons terrific book to the series and also to have an opportunity to talk with her about it, and its very very interesting and challenging claim. So why dont you talk a little bit about it and then we can sure. So first of all, thank you for having me. Im so excited to be here. I feel like New York feels like old Stomping Ground for me. So it always feels very familiar to be back in a place that ive spent so much time. So Horse And Freedom started in undergrad. I was a Ronald E Mcnair scholar. And for those of you who dont know. Its a sort of a Pipeline Organization that helps get underrepresented students into graduate school, and i did a paper on two papers one on John Brown and one on the private life of Frederick Douglass. And when i started looking at John Brown, i started realizing wow, you know, we look at John Brown as this radical abolitionist who really takes up arms for the cause of slavery and a lot of the ways that literature addressed him. They look at brown is this leader and to me what i saw was a Follower Someone who really looked at the practices of african americans and looked at the africanamerican experience and even a broad was looking at haiti and just on the Virtua And Use that as inspiration for how he implemented a lot of his ideals and ideology and i said, this is a story that needs to be told not necessarily John Brown, but who influenced John Brown and where was he getting his inspiration from so i started looking at black abolitionists and to me it was really important to center black abolitionists because oftentimes in my class. I find that they look at students. Look at the Abolitionist Movement as this white Man Struggle to overthrow slavery that they see white allies who are sympathetic to the cause and they are sort of the main leaders in the movement to bring about slavery. You even see it with the narrative of lincoln as the great emancipator and it really robs black people from not only being at the center of their own movement, but also really being the founders of their movement in a lot of ways black abolitionists i argue in this book are the first abolitionist. Theyre the first people to start advocating for their freedom and it really cuts across gender line. So in the book both men and women are looking at not only the abolition of slavery, but also equality. How do we bring about slavery . And get people to recognize our humanity so people in the book are constantly talking about the best way to assert your humanity is through violence that the only way people are going to respect us is if we push back on this violence that slavery into the institution that starts in violence. It is cultivated by violence sustained by violence and so for a lot of black leaders that seemed only natural that violence would be used to overthrow the inst. Motion so that is sort of the motivation for the work and the central arguments in the work are all about seeing how black abolitionists take a different stance from their white counterparts and really accelerate the oncoming of the war and a lot of ways. You know one of the things that really interesting in reading the book is that you dont have to get very far into it to think. Why didnt we know about this . Why why is this been overlooked and im wondering about your own thoughts as to i mean, you know clearly weve been learning a lot about the role of african americans in the development of the Abolitionist Movement in many many ways. Yeah, but i think you really point us to a sort of set of ideas and methods that we have not really confronted very well, and im just wondering why you think its been so hard for us to take this, you know face up to it. Thats a good question. I think. An american culture we have this romance with not in the civil rights movement. We look at mlk. I mean look at people like rosa parks and we hail their efforts as remarkable and they were but i think that when we look at the Abolitionist Movement, we also hear these stories about the underground railroad of people running away and people sort of hiding or managing to get to freedom or get to canada, but what we dont talk about is this idea that often in order to flee you had to fight right that no one was going to let you walk off the plantation and that a lot of these stories and the underground railroad are not just stories of escape, but there are also stories of violence. Theyre all so stories of force. Theyre people who are stealing themselves away and really aggressive ways, and i think that in order to have conversation it requires nuance so were not really comfortable always talking about violence and people getting killed. Yeah, but when were talking about Selfdefense Selfdefense is such a natural understanding for many of us all of us believe in our own protection of our Bodies Protection of our communities. So i think its tough to talk about but what i hope my book will do was will allow conversations. Its really have these hard conversations and to really talk about the fact that so much of our history is actually not based on nonviolence or so much of the progress that we experience is not based on nonviolence. A lot of it is based on force and that we usually use violence to to talk about a benchmark in history. So if you think about the way classes are taught its like from american revolution to the civil war, but the civil war to you know World War i were two Vietnam Post nine eleven like we use violence to benchmark history. And that is how we understand progress and a lot of ways so it was important for me to to look at violence and give it an appropriate nuance look that i think it deserves. Well, do you think that scholars even sympathetic scholars rather they are africanamerican or not have a certain investment in playing down the role of violence because its politically problematic and constructing a narrative about slavery to freedom. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, like i mean ive encountered this a lot it even at conferences and talking about this work. I think that there is a stickiness about violence that people dont necessarily want. Um, and i also think that given the current debate about like Gun Control and the second amendment. Im not afraid to talk about the fact that the black community has a long history a long relationship with armed resistance along relationship with the gun. And i think that has to be talked about in a way that gives black people their agency and really sees them as leaders in this movement and leaders who are willing to risk their lives for freedom men and women willing to you know, lay down their lives for themselves for other fugitives for their children for their communities that theyre invested in this and that theyre all so responsible for recruiting white allies into their own ideology. So when i talked about John Brown earlier, i see John Brown is a perfect example of how hes inspired by what black people are doing. Well one of the other things you clearly challenges sort sort of the Gender Identification of political. Islands because its oftentimes coded mail and masculine. So how did you find your way into this . I mean obviously its a way of you know sensibly asking questions about the universe of participation, but were there moments when you sort of discovered episodes that forced you to think in different ways about the subject yeah, i guess i asked a good question. I do not believe that Self Defense is gendered. I think that we all have this innate desire to protect ourselves. And so when i was in the archives and doing all of this research, i found that men were the predominant voice but that women were there as well and that women are just as much susceptible to violence as men. Are they just have they have every much reason to retaliate that that black men do sometimes more of a reason to retaliate the violence. So theres this excellent example that im going to read from and its about the caning of Charles Sumner so to give you some context Charles Sumner is giving a speech and incendiary speech and which in the book hes talking about Andrew Butler and hes talking about how they want to make the state of kansas as slave stated. He says, you know, he says a lot of sin during language like in order to make this state a slave state. Its akin to the rape of a virgin and that you love your Harlot Slavery and you know, hes like, you know using all this sexual imagery to talk about violence and to talk about the Slave Power and so the nephew of Andrew Butler preston Preston Brooks. Heres this speech and you know says you have offended me you have offended my uncle and im going to sort of avenge is honor and he came to him in his thin it office. He takes out his own thick cane and literally beats him. Within an inch of his life Charles Sumner hides under the desk and the desk is bolted to the floor and pretty much he continues to beat him until he breaks his cane um and the whole time Charles Sumner is unarmed one of his friends is standing outside with the pistol to make sure that no one interferes on this beating and so when i was in the archive i was reading about how our black people responding to this beating. What are they thinking about is the most appropriate response and i came across a Newspaper Article and im just gonna read it to you. It says Sumners Attack validated africanamericans desire to intervene in politics at a national level and have their voices heard one of the most remarkable responses to summoners beating came from an editorial in the new orleans daily creel a black newspaper that debuted about a month after the attack the Op Ed was titled quote a challenge to mr. Brooks, mr. Amelia are in robinson called the attacks cowardly to be the man unarmed and down. She referred to brooks as a cringing puppy who whom she would gladly meet in her plate in any place with pistols rifles or cowhides . The Outrage Robinson felt had no bearing on her sex. She like other black leaders was exacerbated by exasperated by the sacrifices that had cost her dearly she was 50 years old and a widow. She had lost two of her sons in the mexican war brooks actions represented a direct up front to her own Liberty A liberty that she believed her country should protect quote now then mr. Brooks Respond Robinson challenged, let us see some of your boasted courage you are afraid to meet a man dare. You meet a Woman Robinson declared that she was anxious to do her country some service either by Quote Whipping or choking the cowardly ruffin who threatened what she perceived as americas most precious Rights Freedom of Speech Robinson was willing to put her strong words into print and to expose her disdained regarding the attack for summer and more than any man. She was willing to publicly retaliate while many were praying for Summer Robinson illustrates what she was willing to do with the pistol. The chapter of this title is called from prayers to pistols and it basically illuminates the fact that by the time of the 1850s. Black leadership is exhausted. Theyve been in the Abolitionist Movement for almost 20 years now, they see no Progress Matter of fact every piece of legislation that has come out during the antebellum period has favored the Slave Power his favorite slave owners. And so when she sees this happen amelia robinson, this is her. This is her breaking point. And what i love about this is that this is not a conversation that she has between a girlfriend. Its not a letter that she writes which shes like. Oh, i would love to choke him. She puts this in a bed, right . She puts her name on it. She signs her name her initials the whole nine yards. Um, and shes unafraid of what that means and to me the most powerful part is like, you know, its not fearsome to meet a man but dare. You meet a woman. Thats the real Challenge Right to meet a Woman Face to face and then you know, she even talks about choking him out. I mean, so this is like a side from weapons what she would do in hand to hand combat. Its just it is so colorful it is so i think appropriate to really understand that women are just as much invested in protective violence and protective defense as men. Well, do you think that the work youre doing on abolitionism has implications for how we should study the history of slavery. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So i think that in the past. 15 20 years the scholarship on women has improved greatly especially looking at the experiences of enslaved women. Im thinking of Erica Dunbars Book never caught where she talks about on a judge and the fact that she ran away from George Washington and was never caught Im Thinking about Dj Cooper owens book that looks at medical bondage and the founding of gynecology and the mothers of gynecology. I think that theres a lot more scholarship thats coming out that is really putting black women at the center putting black peoples voices at the center and im just putting them at the center but giving them volume like turning up the volume on how loudly we should hear them and value what it is that theyre saying. So for me, i think its an exciting but also in terms of violent resistance. Oh absolutely in terms of violent resistance. I have a an article that im working on now and the title is called there. You meet a woman because i thought so hes the title, but its the article is about black women who enslaved women fugitive women and free women who have used violence to really either push a political agenda to push back on the institution of slavery and it has you know, national consequences so if you think of you know celia whos a slave and she kills her her slave owner. She beats him over the head chops up his body puts him in the fire and then spread his ashes all over the plantation. I mean that it doesnt get more violent than that or um, or if you think of margaret garner, you know, Shes Someone in a really intimate way use this violence against her own children that she kills her children to prevent them from being sold back into slavery that she saw death as a form of deliverance over slavery. So i look at all these women who are enslaved to our fugitives on the barn who are free and see violence is fair game. Well you say something to the extent very powerfully about how you see violence is the kind of doubleedged sword of democracy. What do you mean by that . And how do you want us to think about that . Because we oftentimes see violence and democratic methods as being on opposite ends of a political spectrum, right and we kind of celebrate at least theoretically or commitment to democratic methods and are reluctance to engage in violence. Of course, that doesnt describe every politics. Yeah. Its interesting. I say that violence is the doubleedged sort of democracy because i think that when we think of freedom in this Country Everything that we experience as democracy has been acquired through violence. So if you look at the american revolution you look at the french revolution if you look at the haitian revolution a lot of black abolitionists are thinking about how does change come about so they look at the founding fathers. They look at people like tucson the virtua and they say violence is the only effective tool to bring about longlasting change. So when i thought about the the title for this book, its force in freedom, but it really could be forced for Freedom Right because a lot of leaders are seeing that in order to bring about freedom. You have to force it. You have to really demand it that no one is going to give you freedom that no one is gonna give you democracy so when we think of, you know, patrick henrys give me liberty or give me death that is like the quintessential ultimatum, right . And thats probably one of the most like quoted lines of all like the 18th century the 19th centuries. Give me liberty or give me that or they who would be free muslimself strike the first blow that we have a powerful understanding of how violence works to ensure freedom and thats sort of the the double Edge Sort of it. Well, what do you think that says about our own understanding of the tradition of american politics where weve been so interested in denying . I mean some are the episode with some bands out it appears because its out of the ordinary. It turns out that Preston Brooks had only recently a proposed that all members of the house of representatives checked their arms before they go on to the house. So he seemed to think that honors duties could be carried out without guns. Yeah, but but you know in many ways youre suggesting that the episode with some theyre not really be seen as the exception. Oh, its not seen as part of the process and how are we to think about the implications of this for our political culture and not only then but you know how we think of about it now, i mean, were very accustomed to talk about the way in which politics is sort of degenerated into a very polarized situation, but well youre describing is a is a political world. Just back into the 18th century and the founding of the republic thats very much organized in that way. Yes, i think that violence remains a pivotal Turning Point in every aspect of american history. So its not just the cane of Charles Sumner. I mean when we think about the civil war it is the most deadliest war that america has ever experienced. Frederick douglass has this great quote where he says because of the force of events and hes talking about the civil war. He says americans accepted more truth in four years of war than they did in 40 years of peace. And i think thats so remarkable that there is a theres a valuable lesson in violence that we are unwilling to sort of accept and i think that denial prevents us from being able to keep these violent episodes from happening. I even look at you know, i think about current politics and not to being alarmist, but i think about the next election thats coming up and how when we thought about you know, 2016 and a lot of trumps rallies there was violence a lot of these rallies that these these polarizing ideas have really brought people to do horrendous things in the name of freedom in the name of making america great again, so that these ideas are not really foreign as we think they are we see them coming up again and again now my abolitionists are mostly talking about protective violence. Theyre not i mean some of them do say we should say masters some of them do say that but some of them do that some you do that but for the most part they are talking about protecting their humanities and protecting their communities, but i do see the ways in which you know violence can be used in a lot of ways and i think that you know for honest with ourself, there are some ways in which violence does become effective. You know, the civil war was horrible. It was violent. It was deadly but it was effective it brought about them emancipation of slavery and we have to own that that history. Um, you mentioned Frederick Douglass and one of the things that douglas always said was that the cause of the slave is a peculiarly womens cause and so what did you think he meant by that women are doing everything in the Movement Everything they are working in the publishing field. I talk about Mary Ann shed carey a lot. She is an africanamerican woman who moves to canada. She starts the provincial freeman. Shes the first black Woman Editor of any newspaper certainly in canada, but in North America and she is a huge advocate for the enslaved shes constantly recruiting people to come to canada and its Martin Delaney who says to her, you know, instead of instead of pushing people to come to canada. We should really start recruiting for this war because i feel like war is inevitable it is coming and so she comes back to the United States on the brink of war and starts to recruit troops to fight in the civil war. But women are a part of aids and almost like sort of refugees societies where slaves that come to the north. They are making sure they have food. They are making sure they have clothing. They are helping them get jobs helping them get situated they have sewing circles and prayer circles so that women are at every aspect of the movement and a lot of these famous abolitionists robert purvis Frederick Douglass William Parker Lewis hayden all of their Wives Eliza and Harriet And Anna are very much involved in what theyre doing. So its not as though, you know Frederick Douglass goes out to give a speech and its just him. We dont give an attention to anna and what shes doing on the other side. Thats thats quiet for this so powerful and keeping the movement going i talk about in the book. Theres a story in which William Parker is housing for fugitive slaves and the slave owner. Gorsuch comes to his house to retrieve these slaves because he parker has a reputation for housing fugitives and when his wife sees whats happening that the interaction between her husband William Parker and this lay holder and its getting tense and you know words are being exchanged and its kind of like over my dead Body Type Stuff and people are brandishing weapons. She says to her husband. Should i sound the alarm . I think im gonna sound the alarm and she goes up to the attic and she starts to blow. Hes really loud horn to to alert the black Protection Society that were in trouble that you need to come. 80 people show up and surround William Parkers house with like guns rifles Pitchforks Farm Equipment and the whole time shes blowing the horn us marshals are shooting into the attic to try to get her to stop blowing up to kill her basically and she hides behind this this wall, so shes protected but women i mean that act in and of itself all of the resistance of christiana could have gone horribly had eliza not thought to sound the alarm and not risked her life to sound the alarm as well. So, you know, we make them footnotes, but they really need to be featured in this movement. Um before we open it up to questions. I just wanted to pick up on a point you would raise which is really interesting one and thats about the impact of the and influence of the haitian revolution because for many slaveholders, this was the horrific event. This was emancipation being played out in its bloody glory. This was the image that was going to be held up to those who were talking about abolishing slavery that this was the kind of violence you were inviting, but im wondering in light of your yours your whole discussion of the role of violence and the embrace of violence as good as necessarily part of an Abolitionist Movement the role from the point of view of africanamerican abolitionist that haiti plays. No both is an example of how slavery can be ended. But all so as a an idea of how slavery must be in yes or should or should be and i think that the black abolitionist in general respected the american revolution, but they also side to hypocrisy so they said this revolution is incomplete because it has not freed this slaves. The real revolution is haiti because haiti not only you know has its overthrow of its colonial power france. Is it slaves right that the enslaved become men and women with Citizenship And Humanity and so the idea that this revolution could even be successful that it could even be accomplished with something that it gave a lot of black activists hope and so in a lot of their speeches the rhetoric theyre writings. Theyre talking about the island of haiti. Theyre following the events of hating very closely. Haiti is also paying attention to black leaders and the 1820s President Boye since coffee 20,000 pounds of coffee to try to get africanamerican to come to the island, which i think is really important. Hes trying to get diplomatic recognition. So the time the United States is not recognized haiti is its own independent country. Um, but theyre recruiting actively and one of the last stories i talk about is a woman by the name of john and she says talks about how she she was enslaved. She tells a really tearful story about her experiences and then she says yeah, ive had enough of america. Im going to haiti like im leaving and she says im here just to raise funds, you know, if you can support me shes beginning in front of a church and people sort of past, you know the hat around for her and its not clear that youve married. Its not clear if she has children, but the fact that this woman is considering leaving the country of her birth. Because she only sees a future in haiti is telling really really telling me. Um, i think it would be a good idea to open this up because im sure there are many and professor jackson. Has lots to say so. Let me invite questions. Comments yes. I just wondering if you had any thoughts about the whole issue of Violence Versus Nonviolence in during the civil rights movement. Yeah, and what it means to you. Yeah, thats a really good question. I get asked that a lot. Actually i think its because its the point of reference that people are familiar with but what i think a lot of people dont know is that while civil rights leaders are pushing for nonviolence radical nonviolence. That doesnt mean that selfdefense is off the Table Selfdefense is very much on the table. They talked about, you know, Martin Luther King, jr. s house being an arsenal that theres a really good book called this nonviolent stuff will get you killed and in it. I cant remember who it is, but hes in Kings House and he goes to have a seat and theyre like, well dont sit there. Theres like three guns under that chair. Oh and and you know that that Martin Luther King his home is an arsenal. Hes constantly armed the men around him are con. Arms, rosa parks carried a pistol on her ida b. Wells said that a rifle should hold up should be a place of honor in black peoples homes. Fannie. Lou hamers said she kept the rifle in every corner of her house to protect yourself from the clan. So theres this long tradition of Gun Ownership for protection from the clan. This is i think thats really specific. The deacons of selfdefense were a group of men that protected their communities and even shy clans men like theres a really good story in which im your black children at a Park Playing and the clan show up to terrorize these children and the deacons of selfdefense shoot a white man. They dont kill him that they wound him and he wants going to the hospital and the crazy part of the story is nothing happens to the black man. Like hes not arrested, you know, its like, oh hes going to jail hes going out but that doesnt happen. And what happens is almost immediately those terroristic acts that are being enacted by the klan stop almost overnight that when they realize that their life is just as much at risk when they engage in violence that violence stops, so and its the same thing in my book that when Slave Catchers are pursuing fugitives and they get killed this this process becomes the deadliest catch in a lot of ways that they are going after fugitive and these fugitives have nothing to lose so they kill slaveholders. Theres a theres i didnt read it. Theres a part of my book where you can read it if youd like. Oh you want me . Yes, its a paragraph its not like, um, but its a really good way which hes talking about. So its been a man by the name of John Anderson and and he is an Escape Slave and he is speaking before an audience and hes talking about how he had to run away and how he had to kill someone to do it. So it says when John Anderson and escaped slave who fled to canada gave his testimony before an audience. He received a great and prolonged cheering as anderson approached the crowd. He modestly declared that he was not used to public speaking and he only wanted to say a few words about his experiences and escape from slavery. He reported that in order to escape bondage he had to cut and run and fight in Shed Blood. Quote i dont like to Shed Blood he added but that is whats called fighting in war. I believe the audience erupted with cries of you did right and here here anderson heavy with regret told the audience that he had tried everything in his ability to evade his pursuer and to avoid killing him. He had warned his pursuer that if he continued to follow him, he would slay him. Pursued for two or three hours longer anderson recounted that the man would not leave him in sophie killed him. Again, the audience erupted with affirmation shouting bravo and you did right he concluded that while he regretted his actions. It was the only alternative to prevent being taken back into bondage. He claimed that he was a christian Man And Hope that after the murder he could still be considered a godly man. The crowd erupted again with cheering and shouting it is a justifiable act the Reverend Chairman of the meeting proclaimed that if there was any kind of defense that was right. The one should fully endorse the opinion so loudly expressed in this meeting. Been the chairman added quote John Anderson did perfectly right desired fugitive friend looked like a murderer. The response of the audience was resounding here here and no no the days of nonresistance were over now a fugitive slave could kill his pursuer and produce Excitement And Applause among public audiences. He could even still be considered a christian. So thats one particular story of how people are fighting back and getting cheered on for it. Yes. Thank you a group of us been talking about the history of negro spirituals in the pre civil war time and the fact that theres an awful lot of theme of resistance woven through there not simply acceptance of another world and that Nat Turner was in fact a minister a preacher who wrote spirituals as well as led to slaverable and i find it fascinating that that sense of resistance flows through the thinking in a religious sense of a lot of the people in the Slave Community then and that turners own role drawing a lot in haiti. Yeah and a sense of necessity of turning to violence. Yeah, i think thats a really . Theres a Spirit Win black people are thinking about freedom and when theyre thinking about the overthrow of slavery, they believe that selfdefense is their godgiven rights. And so when they engage in violence, theyre not engaging in violence to commit murder theyre engaging in violence to protect themselves and so in doing so they would almost like theres a great quote by Martin Delaney where hes talking about refugitive Slave Law and he says if a Slave Catcher enters the threshold of my door, and i do not lay him a lifeless corpse in my feet. I hope heaven may refuse my soul. Its final Resting Place Place in my spirit a home. So basically which is like oh delaney, right, but hes basically saying like if i dont kill this man if i dont defend myself, i hope i dont go to heaven right like i hope that you know that heaven rejects my spirit. So theres very much a spiritual component about engaging in this in these kind of forceful acts that people are using the bible. Theyre using spirituality. Theyre using haiti youre using the founding fathers to justify and to rationalize the decisions that theyre making and i think thats so important because if youre using the bible as the foundation for your for your understanding or for your justification, very few people can refute it. Um, because you know the 19th century the bible is everything its all people are reading. Sometimes. Its the only thing people are reading and so makes it really big difference. Yes. Hi, could you talk a little bit i about the extent of when you discussed black abolitionists what it was that mean exactly. How many were there . What in what context are you thats a good question. So this is this is great because when im teaching a lot of times my students think that all northerners for abolitionist and im like no not even close. Theres a big difference between being antislavery and an abolitionist, you know, you can be antislavery. You cannot want slavery in the state of illinois, but you can simultaneously hate black people like that is the common refraine among northerners. So when i talk about the abolitionist im talking about people who are actively advocating for the immediate emancipation of slaves, but not all of those people who are advocating for the median emancipation of slaves. See black people as human or see black people as equal. So the reason why i talk about black abolitionists is because they had a twofold mission. The first was emancipation, but the second was inequality and not all white abolitionists were on board with that. So i talk about how when i was in college, i had a professor that said that white abolitionists approached slavery as though it was a free the Whales Campaign those like free the whales dont hurt the whales right, but its also like but Whales Cant Vote and wales cant marry my daughter and whales arent human, you know, so theres this whole like a anti blackness thats attached to it. So the reason why i focus on black leadership is because they are looking at the two Prong Focus of emancipation and equality. So in the book, i not everybody thats black is an abolitionist. Theres some people that were black and they were almost hostile to abolitionists, especially if you were in the north because it was well dont mess with the status quo. I have my job. Im im happy. I finally have freedom or im enjoying freedom, and i dont want you to upset the community because in the 1830s, theres a lot of anti abolitionist mobs. They attack black businesses they burn down. To sleep burn down black orphanages when they feel as though the Abolitionist Movement is pushing too far or pushing for too much. So i do make a distinguishing. Case for who is a black abolitionist, um, not everyone thats black is gonna be a black abolitionist, but almost every leader is an abolitionist. That way um, can you talk a little bit about the role of african americans in the military as form of abolition . Oh, yeah, shes so my Book Sort of ends right at the civil war civil war the start of the war. But before the start of the war, its important to note that black communities are developing their own like quasimilitary groups. So they are preparing for war. They are rehearsing for war before the civil war even gets here. I list at least 14 different regiments that are developed. Theyre not recognized. Theyre not official but they push for their own legitimacy the protect their own communities, they service controls against slaveholders, but when you get to the civil war these same people that were protecting their communities in the 1850s from Slave Catchers are now like sign me up now now weve got legitimacy now we want to fight. And a lot of these people that fight like in the 54th, massachusetts regiment in the 55th, massachusetts regiment, these are free people. These are free black people some of them whove never seen slavery and theyre willing to risk their lives because they know that its not just about emancipation that you have to have equality because they understand that being in the north doesnt necessarily mean a good life, right . It doesnt mean a fair life. So they put their lives on their wrist on the line to really fight for equality and so over 250,000 black men fight in the civil war both in the army and in the navy women are there too as well. So women are serving this nurses harriet tubman most famously services of spy. There are a lot of black women that are serving in spies because they can hide in plain sight. No one would think that they would, you know, be privy to some of these things. Um, but black soldiers are responsible for turning the tide of the war. It is not inevitable that the north would have just one just because they have a bigger population or because theyre more, you know industrialized. The civil war was a prolonged war because it was a hard war and black soldiers were brought in to really help win the war. So its Frederick Douglass that tells lincoln, you know, you have to let black men fight if you want to win this world. You have to let them fight so when lincoln issues that Emancipation Proclamation which freeze like three million of the four million and slave people in that same effort. He also allows black men to enlist in fight in the war. So its twofold its its a victory from the top and a victory from the bottom slaves are freeing themselves on the ground by fleen and then soldiers are actively fighting to also bring about their emanc. Yes. Of my question is about the american missionary association that had a role with freeing of the amistad africans. Did they have a continued role with the black abolitionists here . I know that they do do continuous work with those freed africans and trying to send them as missionaries having service commissioners in africa. Thats a good question. You know, i dont. I dont particularly know the answer to that only because im not looking necessarily. I dont look at the Homicide Case in my work. Im not looking at the missionaries. Theres a big sort of back to Africa Movement or sending missionaries to liberia. Thats definitely happening. But i teach us Labor And Film course and we watch on the side and i use one of Eric Foners critiques and what she says this film is like its not he says a lot of things about it, but he basically says that this moment is not as pivotal as people think it is right that when you have the Homicide Case you have, you know, a Couple Dozen africans that are able to go back to africa, but it essentially has no bearing on the institution of slavery itself that there is no, you know new laws or Legislation Or Anything that changes the livelihood for people that are enslaved. So in some ways that im a Stud Case really is unique in that. Yes. Its interesting that these things are able to go back but theres not much to implications for what happens when people who are still enslaved . That the ama is very active during the civil war and the you know Documentary Record is enormous. Yeah, the infantry. Yeah, i see. I see. Any meaningful way . I dont think theres a robin. Mmm massachusetts in the 1830 40 even oh, i wondered if Robert Benjamin Lewis who was a free man from maine who wrote a book and was associated with the american missionary association and had his book published in boston. I believe in the 1830s and again in 1840s. I think he went to haiti as a result of the american missionary association. I wouldnt be surprised theres a group of black leaders that do go to haiti Frederick Douglass almost went to 80 before the civil war. Actually he was actually but then he decided that he was finally going to visit haiti. Theyve been trying to get him to come for a long time. And theres a great story. I think flights david blight talks about it where he says Frederick Douglass was like on the pier ready to board the ship to haiti and theyre like dont go the civil war just started and so, you know, they just fired the first shots on Fort Sumter and so he turns around but im not familiar with that story, but i do know that there are lots of black leaders that are engaged in discussions with haiti and all so with liberia that theres a lot theres a huge international conversation thats taking place in that moment. I think saw him in the back. Question to bring this up to the context of our times today and the rise of white Nationalism Prevalence of police violence. What are your thoughts about the role of violence . Nonviolence . What are the considerations and where the lines . Oh man, you know, i dont know i i thought about this a lot and in some ways. Im really troubled because i see that you know nonviolence is not really effective in the moment that were living in case important i think of colin kaepernick, right simply taking a knee on the field right completely nonviolent in some ways taking a meal is a subservient posture and the backlash that that happened from that protest. Im like, wow, were not ready right . You know, we Cant Handle Someone kneeling for the flag. We certainly cant handle anything much more aggressive than that. I think that when you think the black Lives Matter Movement and a lot of things that they were doing when they were, you know active with these police shootings were marches and you know Staging Sort of slow down from the highway and things of that nature and i think thats really potent for getting attention, but that most people dismiss them as the nuisance and dont see their activism as having real implications for for change down the line. And thats really disturbing to me because i mean, i think about Frederick Douglasss quote and i think about how how you can have 40 years of peace how the abolitionist had been pushing from the 30s 20s and 30s up into the civil war nonviolence. Turn the other Teeth Nonviolence moral suasion, you know slavery is a Sins Slavery is wrong trying to persuade people of the evils of this institution, but nobody wanted to hear them the first thing people really heard were bullets right and and i dont want to get to that point. I dont want to be an alarmist, but i do think that within the 19th century it works because we we understand slavery is wrong all of us in this room. Hopefully all of this room can say flavors wrong, right slavery is evil slavery is bad, but thats really hard to do when youre dealing with these reincarnated versions of antiblackness of oppression. That maybe is not segregation, but its still wrong. Its still nefarious like Mass Incarceration or School Segregation or all of these issues that are really tough deal with us. It is harder to have that kind of response because most people dont readily see segregation is problematic. Otherwise, it wouldnt be so prevalent. Right . Like we dont readily see Mass Incarceration is problematic because it doesnt affect white people. So i think its a much harder conversation to have in the 21st century. I think thats all the time that we have right now. Thank you. Do have any last things like to thank all of you for coming to Kelly Carter jackson for a really stimulating Discussion And Shell be signing books outside. And so i would encourage you to continue the conversation and buy