1651, the philosopher, thomas hobbes, offered the theory of the social contract. He saw it as a Political Community, in which all of its members submitted themselves to an absolute sovereign, in exchange for their security. A generation before hobbes, however, the pilgrims at cape cod had drafted their own social contract. They called it a covenant. In the presence of god, whose signatories pledged to themselves, not to Thomas Hobbess but to laws that they themselves had written the mayflower compact reaffirmed one of the fundamental ideas of the magna carta. Namely, that no Political Society could flourish without respect for the rule of law. But it went further. It insisted upon the establishment of just and equal laws. Laws that would apply without discrimination to all the members of the Political Community. The drafters of the mayflower compact, their freedom and their security would not depend upon an allpowerful monarch. Instead, it would depend on their ability to rule themselves. To submit themselves to the law for the sake of the common good, and also, to the laws that they themselves had written. Here at the beginning of the american story, is the idea of government by the consent and by the government. That is, the idea of self government. In this, the pilgrims anticipated another generation of americans. The generations of 1776. We are grateful to have among us today, a brilliant scholar, to help us understand more, the full significance of this remarkable document. How the concepts of freedom, and the concept of equality grew in the soil of religious liberty. Dr. William d allen is the chief operating officer of the center for urban renewal and education. He is the emeritus demon James Madison college. And emeritus professor of Political Science at Michigan State university. He is a member of the Mackinac Center board of scholars. He has been a member since 1995. Dr. Allen is the author of George Washington americas first progressive, and rethinking uncle tom. The political philosophy of hb stone. He has edited collections such as George Washington, a collection. And the essential anti federalist. He has published numerous scholarly obstacles articles on political philosophy and american political thought. Join me in welcoming dr. William allen. Let us discuss the mayflower compact. This is a subject whose importance will never cease. We begin with the obvious, or just say, the presence of the mayflower compact is a header of the american selfgovernment and the United States. s presence in the continuing stream of events is what concerns us. For the mayflower ship is of course not the center of conversation. It is rather the assembled people, we should Pay Attention to. Those gathered on the ship. And who, before they disembarked at the mouth, signed their names to the may lower compact, committing themselves to develop a civil politic. When we look at the text of the compact, that text tells us a great deal about what we should expect. As when we read it carefully, we notice, not only of course the professions due to god, but also to king and country. We emphasize countries in the plural. Great person, france, ireland, etc. All of which are represented by a of all people, king james. The stuart king, whose family was at the center of centuries long convulsions. Precisely over the question of what should be the form of government in great written, and particularly, resulting in the wars of cromwell, followed by the restoration. Followed by the wars of the succession. All this lay in store, while the pilgrims set sail for north america. And a way of life important respects, untroubled by these turmoils. They left, because they could conceive and were already experiencing religious persecutions. They turned their faces away from their country without disclaiming appropriate loyalties and obedience, while nevertheless, setting their faces to those past incoming experiences in order to open the path to new experiences. Now, what is important indeed about this is to reflect that these pilgrims set sail, not from london or south africa or some other port of england, but from belhaven. Effectively, they had relocated over much of the journey. In another sense, they were self exiled in holland. So, as they left holland, they left with this purpose underlined. You see, in the bold print, just what the mayflower compact emphasizes. They shall form a covenant and combine themselves in a civil body politic. This is a consensual moment. All agree in consultation with one another, that they will undertake this work to form a civil body politic, and how they will form that civil body politic. They will do it by enacting, constituting, and framing just and equal ordinances and laws and offices. From time to time, as shall be thought most neat and convenient for the general good of the country. Now, this is an ambitious undertaking. And is we see the text of the mayflower compact, they must remind yourself what occurred here. We had a foreshadowing long before they were on board the ship. They were already agreed in principle and spirit on this undertaking when they boarded the ship. They received specific instructions. They were sent off by their shepherd. They were going off on their own, essentially sailing into a desert wilderness they thought of as Northern Virginia. They had a charter from the virginia company. That explains, of course, their continuing commitment to the king. But in the process, they had a shepherd. Pastor robinson. Who came on ship to deliver, as it were, his last sermon. He want them to pay due attention to a civil constitution. Founded in consent. In other words, they actually had been assigned a mission to create such a covenant among themselves. Before even raising the sales of the mayflower. Therefore they fulfill their appointed mission. Faithful to the spirit that reflected a genuine understanding of the importance of community is the context in which to develop the principles of self responsibility. Thats a rather tricky formulation. One that we see constantly throughout the process that began with the sailing of the pilgrims, and continued to the landing and Subsequent Development of Plymouth Colony, the Massachusetts Bay colony. And all that surrounded these events. Scarcely a quarter century after they landed, we find them developing in massachusetts and of course, the body of laws and liberties in which they reaffirm the context in a much growing community that this commitment to civil and constitutional order. Moreover, they committed themselves to expressing it in writing. We see through the numerous developments taking place that they committed continually emphasize community. To be sure, when first they landed, they had the model of the early church in mind. Therefore, adopted communal practices on the assumption that all were in this together. And all should share alike. But, they quickly discovered that unless there were extensive individual response of elegies and productivity, there would not be prosperity sufficient to support the community. So, they quickly abandoned communism. But did so in the name of a prosperous community. Not long thereafter, 1641, the body of laws and liberties hi jik the greater massachusetts and described positively in comparison with the constitution left behind in britain. We observed that, while they departed with expressive obedience. Determination to emerge into independence and selfsufficiency. Into conscience. For that is what lay at the bottom of pastor robinsons instruction to the pilgrim as a set sail on the mayflower. They sailed under the immediate relationship with god. Those were the very first words of the mayflower compact. But that immediate relationship is the foundation of conscience. And thus, a freedom of conscience to this community is absolutely essential, but not sufficient. Weather salvation in the next world or prosperity in this world they had the combination, requires into individual responsibility answerable to god, which is how we must understand the term conscience, and therefore the power of the freedom of conscience. And also, the thriving community. Such individuals gathered together in mutual support. The rule of law is not an abstraction. It is, as it were, a practice. A pensacola practice. It is necessary to form a civil body politic. Necessary to live in obedience to the law. And necessary to do the things in order to secure pursuit of conscience, which is the obligation to obey god before man. That is a tricky formulation. Just concealed in the expression, every man, his own pope took the pogroms grasped that fundamental playing. But also grasped not every man alone. Which is why they affirmed community. In this 400th anniversary of the mayflower compact, i submit that what is most important and most valuable for citizens of the United States in the 21st century to remember, is that the pilgrims saw no tension, no conflict between the assertion of the rights of conscience and individual responsibility and ultimate prosperity of the community. There is not a tension. There is a mission. Therebuild such equality as would remove any doubt whether there might be tensions. And they succeeded in doing so. Both on their own grounds and eventually, of course, as we see in the emergence of the declaration of independence and the constitution. The fulfillment of that ambition in the United States. Finally, we often find scholars commentators and observers who look back and ask, what the sources of the american founding are. What are or were the intellectual sources . I am one of those scholars. I have, as others, of course poured through the archives and publications of philosophers, statesmen and historians and inquest of answers to the very question. But i would submit to you, the sources are not to be found in the socalled intellectual progenitors who are often cited. While it is appropriate to take note that john lockes works were important. That works were important and other anchors were important. Including ancient and classical thinkers. The true intellectual and moral sources of the founding of the United States are identified right there at the beginning. In the marks of pastor robinson and the the text of the mayflower compact. It is echoed in the writing of windsor and bradford. And ultimately in the expressiveness of the determination. Acting upon the right of conscience, to build a community in which individuals will acknowledge responsibilities to god, and to their fellow citizens. That is the meaning of the mayflower compact. Thank you. Thank you so much, dr. Alan, for your incredible presentation. I am so sure that many have learned from your scholarship today. And, we move on to our next speaker. Lets just reflect for a moment. Like you, i love america. And it is so important to renew the past by recovering and advancing the principles that gave birth to the american revolution. And, guided the minds of the framers in philadelphia. Like no other political generation before or since, the founders enlisted the lessons of history to defy history. That is, to demonstrate that the government of the people, by the people, and for the people could succeed. Where other political experiments flat out failed. So, we must take stock of the founders remarkable achievement, to bring into achievement a democratic republic. And empire of liberty. Built upon ideas of natural law and natural rights. Without this foundation, american liberty degenerates into license. And, the rule of law collapses into the rule of man. Dr. James caesar is here to connect the past to the present, through his presentation on civil body politic, the foundation of political liberty, and the rule of law. Dr. Caesar is a professor of politics at the university of virginia. Where he has taught since 1976. He has written several books on american politics and political thought, including president ial selection. Liberal democracy and Political Science, and reconstructing america. And finally, nature and history. In american political development. I want you to give dr. Caesar a warm welcome. Thank you, angela, for the very kind introduction. I appreciate the opportunity to say a few words today, for the Heritage Foundation of doubt the mayflower compact. As you likely are aware, there has been much talk recently of an event that occurred 401 years ago, which the New York Times last year presented as constituting america us first and true founding. Known as the 1619 project, this event focuses on the landing of a portuguese ship in virginia in 1619. That sold the first african slaves here. Which the times identifies as the fateful moment that defines the american experience. This much contested idea has regrettably served to divert attention from another anniversary that has traditionally been seen and so important to the formation of america. The landing of the ship, the mayflower, in 1620 in plymouth, massachusetts. This event has long been celebrated as the first founding, which is an argument that was first put forward by John Quincy Adams in 1802, and then taken up by Daniel Webster on the 200th Year Anniversary in 18191820. And it is also to be found, at least the pieces of it, and one of our most famous books ever written about our traditions, alexis can osos democracy in america. This book calls the new england settlers, our first founders. And it spends many, many pages discussing what they contributed to the formation of the american character. But, lets go back a moment to the period in which this landing took place. Contrary to what so many have thought, there were already in 1620, a good deal of things taking place on the coast of new england with europeans involved. Jamestown had been settled to the south. 13 years early in 1607. Saint augustine, still further south, had been established by the spanish in 1655. And the lost Roanoke Island colony had been established in North Carolina in 1595. At the same time, in new england, without a full settlement, there were traders up and down the coast. Active on the shores. And they had accounted many many indians. Not always in a friendly way. Despite the good relations that grew up initially between the pilgrim settlers and local indians, which is celebrated in our holiday of thanksgiving, the relations between the natives and the various english settlers that followed were often tense and hostile. All of this culminates a half century later in 1675 and 1676. In a luddy and brutal war, king philips war, in which about 10 of the male settlers in southern new england were killed. This focus that is given today to the king philips war, and the outcome that ensued, this focus now hovers today over many historians treatment of the women settlement in 1620. Which it depicts as part of the great enterprise for the exploitation of the natives. The landing of the mayflower in plymouth was the result of a complete accident. And so, too, was the impetus for writing the famous document we look at a know today as the mayflower compact. In fact, this document was not known by the name of the mayflower compact at all until much later, in 1793. Before that, it was referred to as an agreement between new plymouth settlers. The pilgrims were a group of highly religious persons in england. Who did not believe that they could correctly practice christianity within the state sanctioned church of england. Unwilling to follow the law, they fled in 1610 to the netherlands. At this time, they made an agreement with merchants in london, from the new england Northern Virginia company. To establish a colony in the new world, which would be built in the area of the hudson river, up around what is currently the new york city. The pilgrims then returned briefly to england and quickly than set sail on the mayflower to america. The hundred or so passengers on the ship were comprised of both pilgrims and a good number of others. Merchants and adventurers, who were seeking to settle in the new world. Their two month voyage brought them to america. But they had been blown off course on the way and found themselves with few provisions now in november, in cape cod bay. Well north of the boundary of the Northern Virginia company. The plan became to set up a colony right there. But, immediately, there were difficulties. They were not where they were supposed to be. And friction grew up on the ship between some of the non pilgrims, who were reluctant to settle in the settlers area together with the pilgrims. This fact necessitated a group to draw up a pact or covenant, which set up an arrangement for what the purpose of the colony would be. Except for this accidental event, then, the mayflower compact would never have been written. It is a very brief document, which on the most practical level, sets out the status of all of the persons who would agree to settle in this colony. Looking back, many have seen in this document, elements that would foretell how people, not just in this Little Community in plymouth, but throughout america would eventually discover. To be sure, there are some things in the mayflower compact that remind us of the declaration of independence. In particular, the idea of a people setting out in advance, how they would plan to govern themselves. But rather than straining to show how these two documents fit together, with one leading supposedly inevitably to the other. I would propose considering the relationship between the two of them in a slightly different light. The two documents, the mayflower compact and the declaration, set up with different purposes. But, the mayflower compact offers many things that can perhaps be adopted under our system today, that we are under no strict obligation to do so. The question is whether we think some of the goals set forth in the mayflower compact can, with some improvisation, be added to improve and enhance our system today. On the question now of the differences between the mayflower compact in the declaration, the declaration does not speak in any way of the new colonies fidelity to king james. But, the mayflower compact does. The declaration is a document of independence. The mayflower compact ensures it dependence and continuation of the new colony of england. The mayflower compact sets out explicitly for godly and christian purpose of the colony. It speaks of advancement of the christian faith. Whereas the declaration makes no such explicit commitment. The mayflower compact seems to set out a truly democratic system of government. While the declaration, though it does establish government based on the consent of the governed, leaves open the kind of government that americans would soon establish. Finally, the mayflower compact seems to make the purpose of government the pursuit of a collective goal. Whereas the declaration calls for a government that protects our individual rights. And our individual goals and our individual purposes. But i am not sure if the nation today would not do much better than by recalling and showing fidelity to something we find in the mayflower compact. Fidelity to the religious spirit. Wouldnt we do better to strengthen a commitment to the religious spirit, then to follow a Society Today which is becoming more and more secular. And fidelity in the mayflower compact to democratic rule, supposedly at the national level, at the local level, rather thandemocracy so much as we do today is merely the act of voting at the national level. And wouldnt we do better to think of our duties and commitments to something greater than ourselves and our own individual rights . In this way, we might think of the mayflower compact as a great complementary document to the declaration of independence. A document that can help make us a stronger and better nation. Yankee, dr. Caesar. I tell you, you have a way of making a complex issue very easy for one to understand. As we move through our panel discussion, ask yourself, what are you willing to do to preserve freedom . James madison warned, do not separate text from historical background. He warned, if you do, you will have perverted and subverted the constitution. Which can only end in a distorted form of illegitimate government. He states the possibility of deep risks within the community. But love finders, signers of the mayflower compact something almost unheard of in europe. They mutually agreed to to an act just and equal laws to guide them in their new Political Community. There would be no king among the ranks. Rather, they would submit themselves to the laws that they, themselves, had written. In this, the pilgrims offered an early model of american constitutionalism. The rule of law, equal justice, and government by consent of the governed. The mayflower compact stands as a rebuke to those who denigrate americas historic commitment to freedom and democracy. Ideals which were written into the first pages of American History. Dr. Joe leconte he is the director of the Feynman Center for american studies at the awc Family Foundation fellow at the Heritage Foundation. He will moderate our next panel that will make the case for preserving our legacy of freedom. Prior to arriving at the Heritage Foundation, dr. Leconte had the position of associate professor of history at the Kings College in new york state. Where he taught courses on western civilization, American Foreign policy, and international. He is a scholar on john locke, and the religious influences on the development of the liberal democracy. He is also the author of the New York Times bestseller, a hobbit, a wardrobe, and a great war. Please welcome dr. Joe leconte. Thank you angela for those very generous remarks, introduction. Welcome back over here were penalty with the Heritage Foundation conference on the mayflower compact. I am Joseph Leconte here. As angela just introduced. And, we are looking here at panel 2. Our theme here is the civil body politic, the foundation of and the rule of law. I want to introduce here along with us, we have got carol swain, dr. Carol swain joining our little gathering over here. Just a quick little background on dr. Swain. Host of the podcast, be the people. Sounds like an incredibly useful project for this moment. Be the people. You also are the editor of nine books, one of which black faces, black interests, has one three national awards. Another book, the new White Nationalism in america, was nominated for surprise. She is a former university of professor of Political Science and law at princeton and vanderbilt. She was a National Mayoral candidate 20182019. Her Opinion Pieces have been published widely in the New York Times, seen online, the washington post, the wall street journal. And she holds a phd from the university of North Carolina chapel hill. I am so glad you could join us dr. Swain. Thank you so much. Also, we have dr. William allen. He is with us as well. So, we have heard his remarks. We have heard remarks from joe caesar and now we want to have a robust discussion of out the political implications here of the mayflower compact. This idea of the rule of law. If i could just kind of get us out of the gate perhaps with question. You know, the pilgrims say, in this document, that they want to form a civil body politic for our better ordering and preservation. And i want to throw it out to you guys to get a sense of, what do they mean by that . Given the context. The coming of course from england, there is already social unrest in england that they have left. Just before we get to charles i and the english revolution, with just a couple of years before things really get out of hand. So, now here they are in this new land. A civil body politic for our better ordering a preservation. What do you think they had in mind . Dr. Swain, do you want to lead us off on that . Maybe we will take it over to dr. Alan. First of all, i would say the new human nature really well. And they knew that if you dont have a set of laws, that you get lawlessness. And, they, many of them, were christian believers. And, if you read the bible, it has laws and there is a scripture, i believe it is jeremiah 17 19, that the human heart is so wicked, who can know it . So, there was the belief that you had to have a set of rules, guidelines, laws, god is the ultimate lawgiver. Otherwise, you would be barbaric. And, that is what they were trying to avoid. Wow. So that the natural drift was not going to be some workers paradise. They just left to go their own way. We are not angels. They have to be constrained. You cannot just will yourself to be good people. There has to be some type of guidelines and rules and community standards. Or, you are in a situation where each person does what is right in their own eyes. Yes. Yes. Dr. Allen, do you want to jump in on that . Headline with the civil body politic . I want to jump in and jump back. I will resumethe beginning is not the compact. Compact is important because that is eventually as they were prepared to land. But they also had tooffline. With a set sail from southaven, of course they were there for the point of departure. They were given a sendoff. And that meant they were commissioned. So, they set sail with a mission. Having a work to perform. Thus they were not utopian isers. They were not theoretical dreamers. They were people with a very concrete purpose erica going yes into a deserted wilderness, as far as they know, but not going without purpose. So that they had a confidence in their maker. And in their mission. You might as well have seen them go through with the, fulfilling the Great Commission if you want to put it in those terms. They knew who they were. Thus, the provisions taken on the mayflower compact were merely the means of organizing themselves and doing the work which they already were dedicated to. Yes. Fascinating. Fascinating. One historian called, described are those early ventures and errant in the wilderness. A mission and purpose. Dr. Swain, do you want to way back in on that . I just think it is so interesting, you know, that they had watched what had happened in europe. And, they knew the worst of human nature. And they were people that, they were very familiar with the difficult stories and with israel. And with covenants. So, they set out to establish a covenant with the almighty god. And many of them saw america as being the new israel. And what i find most fascinating is that they had the complete bible and they knew how harshly god dealt with israel when israel strayed. And they thought that they could form a society that would be better. And we know that they failed, the covenant that they sought to make with god was broken very quickly. And, new england today is operably the most progressive part of our country except for california. So, there are exceptions. But if you look at you know, Jonathan Edward and the people that were part of that era, what they sought to do and what they believed. You know, it is just a nation is so far away from that idea of this covenant. And i think that if you read about you know, some of the people that came, they were deeply religious. Men and women. So, many of them, they knew fully well what they were trying to do work they also knew what was in the human nature and in human heart and what could happen. And i think, will be look at today, see how far away our nation is from their vision. Yes. I want to pick up that thought in terms of what this means for the here and now. I do want to unpack this theme of, of the covenant. Because it is a fear something to make a covenant with the living god, isnt it . Yes. And a covenant is stronger than a contract. You know, daniel ellis are has written about covenants. And it is not like a contract. Like people rake contracts all the time. And, if you believe, some people do, that people that, well flanders, that they may be in a special relationship or maybe they, in a patriarchy, or some person have the ability to make covenants and agreements that affect generations. So, they have an authority because they were trying to establish a nation that would affect the generation. You know, and so, did they break a covenantwith god . We suffer consequences as a result of that. And i realize it when i say that, if you believe the bible is a bunch of fairytales and this, and you are not a person, you know, that believes in these kinds of spiritual things. It wont make any sense to you. For a lot of us, who believe the bible is the inspired word of god and that their promises and their consequences. Generational consequences. You know, we, there is a lot for us to, you know, there is a lot of weighty stuff there. When you look at how our nation was founded, how it has evolved, where we are today. Where are we headed. Yes. Yes. Excellent. And let me take it over to dr. Allen here in a second. Dr. Allen, kind of reframing this. Even if youre not a person of faith, the task of this story is to enter empathetically into this into their world and understand what it is that motivated him. Dr. Allen, you want to pick up that thought on the covenant and maybe related to this idea of the rule of law. What i am clearly impressed by in the document itself, the language, what they are after is just and equal laws. Just and equal laws. What relationship of the covenant theology, dr. Allen, to the idea of just and equal laws . Certainly. When you take that question up. But let me specifysay to you, there is no one who is a person of faith. No one is without faith. Told the great game in life is to get the good faith, the right faith. But having said that, i want to remind us once again in this historical context. So that the civil body politic the envisioned in the mayflower compact i said was in fact, not commission from south haven. But it also is not the end. Within a quarter of a century you had the emergence of the body of liberties. And you had developed a timeframe. Also, the fundamental order of connecticut. There is a chain of development here. What is being evidenced in this chain of development is the conviction that they could deliberately construct the organization of society to suit the mission. Which they did not form deliberately, but then saw as a calling upon. There is the move that you are looking for. Movement from recognizing that you are called to god, to accept things that call in the spirit of obedience. And the spirit of obedience require the deliberate structuring our society being able to carry out that call. Now, place it in the context of what was happening within the area of thewhen they departed. For the next more than a century, 130 years, it was written with constant turmoil. You have of course, the problem of the stuarts, charles. That was just the start of it. Shortly after they had left. That process did not end until years before the frenchindian war, 145 years later. Restoration by stuarts. Covenant, noncovenanted. That the england in particular was racks. What do you see in the colony . You see the difference of you see the growth for example of. You see baptist, quakers,. You dont see the war amongin england this period. The fact that they were devoid deliberately structure a peaceful civil order in which there is recognition of moral necessity. Gave them the strength to develop, not evolve. I would never say to evolve, but to develop in a way that strengthen the prospects of. That is a fascinating bit of history. Dr. Swain, you look like you want to jump in on that. Response in some way. Want to give you a chance to do that before fame another question. No. I certainly agree with all of it. So, i dont have anything to add there. But, i was thinking of john when throw, that he wanted them to be the shining city on the hill. Just how far we have strayed away from that in massachusetts in particular. Yeah. I think we can get to that before we close. Because, you know, one of our great tasks, it seems to me as educators, as writers, people in think tanks, and the academy is, we want to help pass on this legacy. This cultural we do. They were onto something, would they . These pilgrims. Because there was a diversity, even within the ranks. Not everybody on that but was on the same page theologically. But, they are signing onto this covenant with equal laws, equal justice for everybody on board. I am still impressed by that. Dr. Allen, go ahead. I want to say, i think it is not quite appropriate saying they are not on the same page. They had different views. But every single one of them clung to the right of conscience. Thatmost significantly misunderstood among us is that conscience is the First Christian virtue. It is the principle ultimately of political liberty. And what you saw implicated there was the growth of a civilization based on that fundamental christian principle, freedom of conscience. And i think i think what is so important is that they signed on to that compact. Whether or not they agreed 100 . And in america,the civil religion. What people may not believe in you know, the virgin birth and the divinity of jesus and the things christians believe in. But, they value laws. And we look at, you know, the principles of the bible that is undergirdedfaith. What the constitution looks like. With the u. S. Constitution, separation of powers, all of the things that they got, you know, from moses. The ultimate lawgiver. Whether or not you were a believer, you are born into the idea of america and what it stood for. I think today, what is missing is that people have reached the point where that search, it is all about me. It is all about what benefits my group work there is no sense that there is something bigger than all of us as individuals. And that we have to come together to achieve anything. But to be united as a nation, to build a nation, it cannot be about me and what and if its my individual group or my family. I have to give up something for the good of the common, for everyone. The common good. We have lost a sense of that. That is actually a splendid point, dr. Swain. Think about it. These pilgrims in that but, they cant afford a tribalism. It would literally destroy them as a community. There is no margin of error for that, is there . There is no room for tribalism. They are cooked. If they go that route. And maybe that is where this into, issue of conscience, dr. Alan. I completely agree with you. I have studied the work of john locke pretty extensively. He comes after these guys historically, of course, the great champion of conscience. One of the great founders of the major way. The rights of conscious, you could argue, front and center in our bill of rights, and the first amendments. They are driven by this, arent they . This is why they got on the boat in the first place. The right to worship god according to the dictates of conscience is a former Political Community with that as the basis. Pick up that theme, dr. Alan. That is precisely the reason. And remember, as we began this discussion talking about the question whether the civil body politic. We can answer that question by remembering what is the opposite. And ecclesiastic body politic. So, the right of conscience we project is first established among human beings against the claims of priestly authority. It comes to apply to Political Authority. Because, Political Authority is whatsubject to ecclesiastical authoritythe rest of the world. The christian said to the priest,repeating the words of the apostles. And that is why29i hope to obey god rather than man. That is when the world changed. That is when politicalwas introduced. That is when was introduced. That became the basis for the rule of law, and not of men. So, we are talking about the tremendous transformation of all of human prospects. That was captained by the expression, freedom of conscience. It is not the indulgence of a state of people. It is quite the opposite. It is the people being placed in the position of the creators of the state andby definition, keep it limited. Wow. That is a beautiful summary, sir. I could not approve on it. Dr. Swain, jumping. I am not going to try to improve on it. But i want to take this another direction. I hope it is not a rabbit trail. But you think about conscience, and fairness and justice and that things that were important to that founding generation. And you look at slavery. In 1619, when the first people, black people came to america in bondage, they were treated as indentured servants. They were released after seven years. They became the back bone of a free society in america. And, they were released, up until, i believe, 1640. And then up until 1661, if they converted to christianity, they were freed. So, the earlier generations was much closer to conscience. They were much closer to god. So, they actually tried to do right by the first people they brought to america in bondage. And some of those slaves became slaveholders themselves. They became very wealthy. And, they became the backbone of the free black society in america. But, think about it. They were released if they converted to christianity. They were released after seven years. But then, the further and further people got away from the judeochristian biblical teachings and roots, they became more about greed. And it was the greed factor that made slavery so horrible. I mean, it was a horrible institution anyway. But, they stop, you know, releasing people. They startedfamilies. They started doing all of these horrible things as christians. Many of them did, but not all of them. So, i think that there is something in the mayflower compact that can help us understand the early slaveholders and just how things just went increasingly bad, until we ended up with the situation we did. Wow. Wow. That is an important part of the story it seems to me. Were kind of moving toward a closer. Here we are with this amazing document, this very short document, the mayflower compact. We see embedded in it this idea of democracy, playing a role, selfgovernment, the rule of law. We see things about conscience kind of front and center. They want equal and adjust laws. And yet, it is growing out of their deep religious christian convictions. And where we are right now with the culture. Back to your point, dr. Swain, is our media elites, our educational elites, they think that all these wonderful listings of liberty came to completely divorced from religious to wies and christian belief. It took the secularization of society to give us democracy. But. I am sorry. I think thats a fairytale. It is just so interesting that they would want to believe that. You see that they are destroying our liberties. At all of the things that we have taken for granted. It is all about destroying the principles and values that came from our judeochristian roots. And our constitution. And that is where we are. That is what we are descended. Away from the rule of law. And in america. If you look at the black community, you know, the black community thrived coming out of slavery. And look at the accomplishments of that people were able to achieve under the worst of circumstances. And now, we have a situation in america where people seem to be regressing. And it is because they have forgotten god. They have forgotten who the are. They have forgotten the constitution. They never read the declaration of independence. They have not read the mayflower compact. They are, historically illiterate, and spiritually dead. It is a crisis of memory. Dr. Alan, do you want to give us some closing words . I will have some closing words. I gave you a chance to weigh in on this. The link between faith and freedom, right from the getgo. Some level with the mayflower compact. Heiko there is no improving on the splendid observations my colleague and friend has just offered. I have not going to close. I will take the occasion to say i found this conversation illuminating. I found the opportunity value. I continue my confidence that human beings can do again what they did was before. Even if in the interim, they lost the way. Let me justas we bring into a store here. Want to thank you so much for your contributions are. There is a line from john locke, the great english philosopher, great champion of religious freedom. When he is describing the responsibility that educators have, he is talking about students now. Young people, embarking on their academic journey as travelers newly arrived in a strange country, of which they know nothing. We should therefore make conscience not to. I think part of what we are trying to do here, your contribution is to help the next generation understand the past fairly, accurately, with integrity, and from that, draw real strength, moral strength and spiritual strength for the challenges, so thank you for your contributions , it has been great being with you. Youre watching American History tv, every weekend on c span3 , explore our nations past, American History tv, created by americas Cable Television companies, they provide American History tv to viewers as a public service. To mark the 400th anniversary of the pilgrims arrival in plymouth, massachusetts, American History tv features several programs looking back to the year 1620, we will talk to robert stone, director of the virtual mayflower project, which uses Virtual Reality to recreate the ship in the plymouth england harbor from which it set sail. In 1620, the mayflower traveled from plymouth, england to america, and the pilgrim settled the Plymouth Colony on the coast of massachusetts. We talked to robert stone about the virtual mayflower project, which uses Virtual Reality to recreate the ship and the harbor from which it set sail. Using avatars and 360 degree images of the virtual world, professor stone describes what life