Our special guest allie larson is a professor of law and director of the institute of the bill of rights law, since she joined the faculty in 2010, she has received many awards including the statewide outstanding faculty award and the in the rising star category. Offessor larson is a scholar constitutional law and Legal Institution for the focus on how information dynamics affect the votes. Her work has been featured multiple times in various publications and these are just a few of her accomplishments, please help me in welcoming allie larson. Our discussion may be about an hour long and it may feel uncomfortable at times, that is ok, you may feel angry, that is ok. You may feel sad, that is also ok. All of these feelings arose for me when i was researching for an event and it is ok to feel something. This reminds us that we care. While slavery is not the beginning of the story, for the purposes of trying to dive into large topics in a very little bit of time we will start our evening with a woman from the time period who resided in her home speaking with. Did you know that help had per portrayed her . Elizabeth there is area was a free black woman, she lived with three daughters and a Property Owner. Someone who did quite well for herself as a free black woman in williamsburg. Thank you so much. Lydia was legally enslaved, one of the delegates who attended the Constitutional Convention. This is behind us and in this interpretation, it is september 19, 1787. We find lydia in her own sharing some Important News with elizabeth. Be it known unto all men by dose presents, that i nightpate and set free near woman slave, lydia. Given my this 20th day of august in the year of our lord 1787. [laughter] good day, i am lydia and i am a free woman. I dont know where my emotions will go. My mood is a pendulum swinging between elation and despair. I have yearned for freedom ever since i was young. As you know, elizabeth, the path to freedom for one born a slave is very difficult, almost impossible. When they told me of their plan to join the british during the too. I thought on running, then i thought better of it, was i going to do in a british war camp . Things they have endured, what has become of all the people who saw their Freedom Freedom byheir aligning themselves with the so called enemies of their socalled masters. No, i thought, it is not my path. Agreed, and so we waited. We waited for his words and deeds to arrive. Eloquent talk of these gentlemen about the rights of men is enough to make anyone hopeful. And thes hopeful declaration of independence said all men are created equal, but nothing changed for us. Ranging started waging, my thoughts turn to survival. Freedom lingering in the back of my mind. Freedom in the back of my mind when i learned of the law that passed in 1782 about the of slaves. Surely i thought, now is the us andr. Witt must free so we waited. Another five years, elizabeth and for what. The death of . I will never know what they discussed in private, was it her dying wish to see us free . Or was it her living wish that cap this enslaved kept us enslaved . Her . Glad to be free of interesting choice of words, elizabeth. It is complicated. I do mourn my mistress, it is hard to believe that she is gone. She and i developed a way of being with one another throughout the years, i ingratiated myself to her, perhaps this is a matter of i have to manage her household with the utmost skill i will receive few comfort and those like port. For that, i am grateful. However, a mistress is a mistress. You remember when i begged her to let me travel with her as her servant. That was 11 years ago when they traveled to philadelphia. Yes, when the traveled to philadelphia on the convention for the declaration of independence, i wanted to go, i wanted to go so badly, of course benjamin was driving them and he would be gone for as long as they were. I so wanted to immerse myself in the free black population of philadelphia. The free blacks outnumber the slaves there. And paris, paris was so young, im sure that fannie would have preferred to stay here and care for her child. The mistress reminded me of my place. , lydia,a housekeeper your job is to tend to the house. What need is there for you to travel . Sammy is my maidservant, she will travel. You will stay here, and that is that. This beautiful home has been my prison. When benjamin returned from hadadelphia, the stories he about encounters with the free blacks there, how we dreamed of freedom than, whispered about what we would do with it, plotted about how we might get it. And now we are free. And polly will be free when she matures and charles is free. Lydia, lucy,hel, isaac,mie, penny, paris, rose, they will not be free. They are to be divvied up amongst my dead mistresses nephews and nieces. I want to cry or scream or punch something, how can i celebrate my freedom, benjamins freedom when so many of love are still slaves . Lydia was grappling with her newfound freedom, but she has been enslaved for most of her life. As it relates to lydia and this time period, what is the definition of slavery . How would you define a slave . And enslaved person is someone who is bound by slave laws and i think that is important to point out that slavery is entrenched in the laws here in virginia and all ,olonies far and wide reaching it changes peoples classifications, it puts limits on what they can and cannot do. It is not just one law or a handful of laws, it is hundreds of laws that are amended and strengthened over time. Can you speak about the laws that codified slavery here in virginia or anywhere . Before we talk about the laws, there are a couple of cases that set precedent. Involves 1640 and it three men in servitude. One wasnt african man by the name of john punch, the other two were men of european descent, victor, a dutchman, and James Gregory a scotsman. They were all in servitude, they ran from virginia to maryland, were caught and returned to virginia so they all committed the same crime. They were runaways, all costs together, did the same thing. You begin to see racial differences in treatment here with this case where victor and James Gregory were made to serve their original owner one additional year in the colony of virginia for three years, john koch was made to serve his owners enters and his owners assigned wherever they live for the rest of his life. And he was black. He was black, he is referenced as african in this record. You have another case that turns out different in 1666 where you have a woman by the name of elizabeth key and she had a mother of african descent and a father named thomas key who is of english dissent and rather prominent. Law, traditionally, everything goes through the father and she had been baptized as a christian. There were restrictions on how christians could be held in bondage, the type of bondage they could be held in and thomas key made arrangements for his daughter that after he died, if she was under the age of 18, she served in this family and be considered free at the age of 18. However, a great deal of time has passed since her 18th birthday, she sued for her freedom on the fact that it had been a breach of contract but also two very important points that she had been baptized as a christian and her father was a free englishman and we see a different outcome with this case where elizabeth key was found to be a free woman and she was also paid in bushels of corn i believe, barrels of corn for the additional time served. Cases withwo legal different precedent and where the first law is passed you can actually tell it is a little reactionary because the first slave law in virginia when it is passed in 1662 says where there to theen questions as status of children born of an african woman and a white father, this law of 1662 states that the status of the child is that of them the mother. Which is Something Different that what you see in English Common law . Yes, everything goes to the father, the first son inherits the most as rights titles would have you, so this is something very different and this is something that will be important as we do get closer to the constitution. You have set into motion a system of servitude that is perpetual and that is hereditary. By the time you get to the 1780s, most people who are large slaveowners, they have gained those enslaved people through natural increase, through inheritance, through wives dowries. Essay people are not still purchasing slaves, that is still something going on, but when you ownk of people who known hundreds of enslaved people, when you look at somebody who owns 200 it is likely they did not purchase 200. When you look at that property to thatss the Value Property often times when you look at to the period, most of the value of people things that they own when they passed away will be vested in the slaves, that law alone has provided them a system in which wealth is built through the natural increase. Thats just one. Do you find other laws are there other laws that are codified in this time period solidify or start to solidify the institution of slavery . Yes, with elizabeths case, one of the points was also she had been baptized as christian, so in 1667 we see a law passed that says baptism does not alter a persons status. Other case there were people and that is something that should be pointed out that like people were still very active in trying to use the legal system at this time. Even into the 18th century, but in 1660 long law seven is closing another window and you still continue to see enslaved people being baptized at the parish closest to us in williamsburg and in other parish records, but often times this comes the way to keep track of the birth of an enslaved person because now taxes are being paid on enslaved people when they become 16 which leads to another law and more than just one law, the classification of enslaved both from the very beginning has always been that of property. That is people if you are indentured or are an apprentice, by have certain rights virtue of being recognized as human in the eyes of the law, but from the very beginning, enslaved people are never recognized as human beings. Thank you for that. Mentioned inventories, taking note of people, and al registries. Those are lydia, she give into receives her freedom in that interpretation that you all saw, what were some pathways to freedom for enslaved people . Especially once those laws started coming down the 16 60s, do you know of any enslaved people that received their freedom . The big revision in looking at slave laws also known as the isck code, oftentimes it individuals, one individual who petitioned the court or petitions the governors counsel. But when the black codes are solidified in 1723, eca law pastor that states that for an enslaved person to be you see a law passed that states that enslaved person must perform a service or deed and the main people that can confer the status of freedom can grant that manumission will be the governors counsel. We know there were probably about 5060 of those petitions that go before the Governors Council and they are approved at so, but thatrds or is still a very small number of people who gain their freedom that way. And that is just looking at virginia . That is just looking at virginia. Virginia was a very gregarious society and cash crops of the 18th century such as tobacco, indigo, sugar, rice, they let us lead us to believe that slavery was only in the south. Will you all be able to speak a little bit on the regional differences over slavery heading into the constitution . By and large there are two definitions of slave society, basically where over half of the population is enslaved, and that is mostly the south where it is slave society. Exactly, tobacco, indigo, and rice that you mentioned, but the north is still a society with slaves where you have people in working in homes, in taverns, skilled trades, not that that didnt happen the south, but by and large the whole economy is based on the agriculture. There is never an absence of slavery ever in any of the 13 original colonies and actually the same time the john punch cases going on, massachusetts is the first colony to legalize slavery of the original 13. Did you want to add anything . I was going to say in the early colonies, the rate of slavery was equivalent in the north and the south, by the time we get to 1787, there are stark regional differences. There is a lot more enslaved people in the south and in the north for the reasons hope suggests with the differences in economies in the agriculture and a longer growing season and districts thought you needed more slave labor to take advantage of that growing season. Fiercets up some pretty battle lines when we get to the convention in 1787. Lets go there, lets jump right into 1787 and that time period. About how many delegates to the Constitutional Convention owned slaves . There are 55 delegates to the convention, we have all heard the stories, the hot summer of philadelphia, they take up the windows and of the 55 people, 25 of them owned slaves. That is almost half. I think it is important to recognize that even the delegates who did not own slaves, there is not a lot of of racialt of talk equality, it is not a racial paradise in the states were slavery is slowly being phased out. There is still a consensus as you are talking about that enslaved people were property and there is a lot of talk about Property Rights and the Property Rights of people that owned the slaves. That is shared among all of the delegates in the cause edition, even the antislavery forces would stop short of saying that a National Government could divest people of their Property Rights. Is that something you want to share . You mentioned that slavery was starting to be phased out, supposed revolution we are several years removed from it, are there states that are trying to do away with slavery . Pennsylvania is the first, the quakers were the first, and then there were gradual emancipation schemes where you may not infer someones freedom right away but when they reach a certain age, then they are given their freedom. This is starting to happen in some colonies by the time we get to the Constitutional Convention, but it is not the norm. I think virginia even makes a law that makes it easier for the masters to manumission their enslaved people after or toward the american revolution. 1787, weat we are in are thinking back, what is the constitution trying to create, why the constitution . Constitution is the paramount law in the United States which means it trumps all conflicting laws and it also means it is really hard to amend. I think of the constitution in part as a mission statement, so it embodies values that we share as americans and we strive for. Another important part of the constitution was to set up the National Government. It is a long story, but the short version is that the government they were existing under, the articles of confederation, was failing. Congress did not have enough power, they cannot regulate commerce, they could not tax, instead they had to ask the states for money. It was operating more like a league of nations of 13 Different Countries as opposed to one United States of america. Is that how the articles of confederation were used . So the articles of confederation required unanimity in order to change anything, you are never going to get that, rhode island was always the stinker they always held out. [laughter] a very different change from we these 13 sovereign states, all of whom have our own rules to, we the people, that was a huge change to have popular sovereignty. A big function of the Constitutional Convention was creating and instilling the National Government that we now know. People, so, knowing that we alluded to have slavery denies the humanity of people, where in the constitution is slavery mentioned . Is it mentioned, do they say anything about slaves . Interestingis an omission, the word slavery is never used in the constitution. The use euphemisms like other persons. I think that omission is telling, think it shows that even if they were not willing to thereh slavery in 1787, were plenty of them that were uneasy with it. Madison wrote to jefferson and said it would be the achilles heel of the country, so i think that omission is telling. Even though they dont mention slavery by name, there are three explicit provisions in the constitution that protect slave owners, the project slavery protect slavery. The first one is the one we are most familiar with and that is the 3 5 clause. You all remember the way our congress is set up, there are two chambers, the senate and the house. Reaching that was the great compromise, making sure the small states and big states were happy, all the states got two senators not everybody, every state. Good clarification. The house of representatives is apportioned by population, so this is the big fight about power. The Southern States would like to count slaves towards their numbers so that they have more representatives in congress and the northern states do not want that. It is a fight over who has more representatives in congress, but i want to be clear, it is not a fight about morality, it is a fight about power. Even the northern delegates that slaves are property, it is really ugly and the southerners who are saying we want to count them as whole people, they are not doing it because they are treating the michael people, they are doing that because they want more representatives in congress. It seems like we see that throughout the 18th century as enslaved people being used to the advantage for slaveowners to gain power. Compromise i think you test on this, it seems like it is directly related to the great compromise because it was all about the numbers of people and trying to get more power. Wondering, were northern or Southern States more responsible for the horrific three for through, what was the motivation 3 5 rule . Does that show up anywhere else living up to this point . Madison had used it in a proposed amendment to the articles when dealing with taxes, he had used 3 5 of a person in order to count a person in order of taxation under the articles, that is where it comes from, but in terms of who is to blame i think theres is enough blame to go around