Transcripts For CSPAN3 IRS Commissioner Charles Rettig Testifies Before House Ways Means... 20240711

Audio real quick . Hell of a time getting in here today. You sound great and you look great. Thanks, i needed that. Gavel again. Okay. Good morning, welcome. I call to order subcommittee on oversight. I want to thank everybody for joining us today. Were holding this hybrid hearing in compliance with House Resolution 965. Accordingly i am joined by members here in the hearing room as well as approximately ten members on the remote platform. Thats outstanding, and i want to thank them for joining us. Before we turn to todays important topic i want to remind the members of a few procedures to help us navigate the terrain here. First, consistent with regulations the committee will keep microphones muted. For those participating virtually to limit background noise. Pause for one moment. So we will pause for one moment. Members are responsible for unmuting themselves, unmuting themselves when they seek recognition or when recognized for their five minutes. Members here in the hearing room also are reminded to keep your microphones muted when you are not recognized. Second, for the members participating virtually, you must have your cameras on at all times. If you need to step away from the proceeding, please leave your camera on rather than logging out. Third, we will dispense with our practice of observing the gibbons rule and instead go in order of seniority for questioning. Alternating between minority and majority, beginning with members of the oversight subcommittee, of course. I thank you all for your we are troubleshooting a quick technical issue, trying to get the streaming from 1100 to show up. It will just be another minute, so youre aware the audio is streaming on youtube already. So the video will be going live as well. Once we get this on. I thank you all for your continued patience as we navigate these new procedures in order to continue serving our country together in this great time of need and with that i will now turn to the important topic of todays hearing. A conversation with the commissioner on the Internal Revenue service. Thats why were here. So good morning. I welcome my colleagues and our only witness. Today the commissioner of the Internal Revenue service, mr. Charles rettig, will join us and i appreciate that personally and professionally. Mr. Rettig, this committee has waited a long time for you to join us, and for we already looking anxiously, waiting anxiously. Nearly two years. It is astonishing this is the first time youre appearing before the chief Tax Writing Committee in the house. I mean, put yourself in our shoes, were trying to do our job, youre trying to do your job, and we have very little communication. With a brand new administration on the horizon this may be your first or your last appearance before us. Im not suggesting either. But the point of the matter is, were glad youre here. Im disappointed you refused to join us for our important hearing on taxpayer fairness a few weeks ago, historically the United States has had an excellent record of compliance with our tax laws. Americans dutifully pay their taxes, assuming the system is fair for all. Whether youre rich as rockefeller or just a regular joe, because of that our voluntary system, tax system has been a model for the world, it really is, at least until recently. Our hearing demonstrated how our system of voluntary compliance has come under assault by the president and members of his government for five years the president refused to disclose his tax returns. The president broke with the history of every president since president nixon. In so doing he sabotaged public faith in our tax system. You have aided and abetted him. As is your job, i guess. Since 2017 ive led congresss efforts to request mr. Trumps business and personal tax returns. Not because im a snoop. Im far from it, just the opposite. The law is clear though. Under 26 United States code section 6103 f our committee is legally and absolutely entitled, our committee is legally and absolutely entitled to review anyone within the executive branch of government the law is very clear. And for 591 days you and secretary mnuchin have broken the law to keep that hidden. I dont know what were hiding, but we have not known. We have not found out yet. It is our responsibility to restore the Publics Trust in our tax system. The president s business and personal returns must be audited impartially. And without political interference. Yet, every time we ask a question were reminded its still being audited, since 2016, before 2016. So we have some questions. The American People have a right to know whether thats whats going on. Time is of the essence. Just last month the New York Times reported that selfpro claimed billionaire, mr. Trump, paid only 750 in taxes in 2017 and 2018. 750. And in ten of the last 15 years he reportedly paid no taxes. When you listen to the explanation of why that happened, having nothing to do with you, but when you listen to it you have to wonder, is this reading out of a cartoon magazine, or is this really happening . Is this a fantasy or reality . The teachers and firefighters, police officers, the people collect our garbage in our districts are paying a heck of a lot more. The taxpayer fairness issue manifests itself in many other ways. Mr. Commissioner. We hear over and over from our constituents who have failed to receive their Economic Impact payments, im very angry over that, and im sure you are too. Time and time again, on time even at all. I look forward to discussing how the irs is rectifying these dire situations. No one whos eligible should have to wait for their check, especially during a pandemic. We are hearing similar complaints about 2019 refunds. Our constituents have waited for months to get their refunds and their records straight. I have a constituent who was told not to expect the response from the irs on her 2019 return until january. January . I want to know if that is acceptable to you. I hope you will bring us up to date on your efforts to get through the backlog in returns and collecting dust at irs. Mr. Commissioner, well be following up on my question at the oversight and Government Reform Committee hearing. Are you not ordered in wealthy taxpayers and corporations more extensively than low income americans . Let me now yield to my good friend, gentle lady from indiana. Thank you for holding this hearing. Mglad youre here. Im thrilled to be here, and i thank you commissioner rettig for being here and with the irs. I want to thank the men and women that have worked hard to keep the agency rupp up and running to provide services to our fellow taxpayers. The cares act required that the irs take on a number of tasks but none greater than sending Economic Impact payments to more than 160 million americans, a huge undertaking and we should acknowledge that the irs got most of those payments out the door in just a matter of weeks, so we thank you for that, commissioner. With that said, i think you would acknowledge that the irs still faces a number of challenging things Going Forward, and i have concerns about how the agency plans to meet those challenges. There are just a few main issues i think the agency needs to address. I hope youll be able to provide the committee with some answers on how the agency plans to do so. First, im concerned about the current backlog of mail and unprocessed returns that has built up since the initial lockdown in march and april. My understanding is that the irs has millions of pieces of unopened mail and an even greater number of unprocessed tax returns. That means millions of taxpayers are still waiting on refunds for tax returns they filed as far back as march and april. Second, given that this mail backlog may not be resolved until well into 2021 im concerned about the agencys ability to prepare for what is likely to be another major difficult Filing Season. Third, on the eip payments, ill say that the number of payments you sent out and how quickly you did so was incredible but i have heard from a lot of our constituents that and i know my colleague haves as well, about the situations where folks are still eligible for eips but still have not received anything. So i would appreciate hearing more about what the irs has done and will do to make sure everyone who is eligible for an eip receives their payment. And then, i also want to acknowledge that the irs this week released guidance on the Paycheck Protection Program related to the tax treatment of expenses paid with a ppp loan that has not been forgiven. Many Small Businesses are struggling to stay afloat right now all over this country. Many we need to pull together to ensure these Small Businesses have relief, especially those forced to close their doors due to state and local covid restrictions. Id also like an update on the implementation of the bipartisan Taxpayer First act. As you know we enacted this important law last year as a result of a bipartisan work on this committee. This historic overhaul of the irs requires implementation work on the part of the agency and id appreciate an update on your progress and what challenges youre facing. I want to make sure we dont let our response to the pandemic hinder the longterm work that still needs to be done to improve and modernize the irs. With that i thank the commissioner for his testimony and i yield back, mr. Chairman. We will dismiss mr. Kelly. Well next hear from our only witness, and that is commissioner rettig, and i thank him again for appearing before us today. Your Opening Statement will be made part of the record in its entirety. I ask that you summarize your testimony, five minutes or less, to help you with that time please keep an eye on the clock. And the lights in front of you. If you do go over your time i will notify at the tap of my gavel but were here to listen to you. Commissioner, you may begin. Thank you, chairman pass carell, Ranking Member and the rest of the members who are here. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss irs operations and our efforts to help taxpayers during the covid19 situation. Initially, mr. Chairman, respectfully i would like to indicate that i disagree and take exception to the terminology aided and abetted. But i cannot speak to any matters associated with that since those matters are in litigation as well as those matters involved specific taxpayer information which im not able to discuss. But i respectfully wanted to make the record on that for you, sir. Now, more than two years into my term as commissioner of the irs i remain extremely proud to be working with the irs and the exceptional employees of the Internal Revenue service knowing that 96 of the gross receipts of our country flow through the irs that has strengthened my belief that a healthy, functional irs is critical to the overall success and wellbeing of our country. The importance of the irs to every american has become especially apparent since this spring has our nation has faced unprecedented challenges, the irs has been at the forefront of successfully providing rampant Economic Relief to taxpayers during covid19. The irs response serves to illustrate how critical it is for the agency to receive consistent, timely and adequate multiyear funding such that we can succeed in providing the services that our country and our citizens so rightly deserve. Irs employees have worked since midmarch to implement major provisions of the cares act, especially the Economic Impact payments which have helped millions of americans during these challenging times. So far, approximately 160 million Economic Impact payments have been issued, totaling about 270 billion. Many of these payments recognize more than two people in a family. Delivering the Economic Impact payments, the Internal Revenue Service Employees balanced the statutory requirement to deliver these payments, quote, as rapidly as possible, as dictated by the cares act, with a need for accuracy and a concern about potential fraud. The irs correctly computed the amount of the payments of the first 157 million payments according to our Inspector General 98 of the time. I think thats miraculous and its a tribute to the strength of our employees and the dedication of our employees. However, we readily acknowledge that there is more to do, although the strength of our employee our agency is the employees the interaction of our employees in the communities in which they reside is equally important. During this period of time our employees have been out in involved in and engaged with community or local Community Organizations trying to generate Economic Impact payments for people who are needy and were essentially and to the point of interacting with the unsheltered communities. We have interacted directly with more than 4,000 homeless shelters, numerous different organizations around the country, all as more specifically set forth in my more lengthy written testimony. Tomorrow is the deadline for registration of the Economic Impact payments on our nonfilers portal, and i would like to encourage people to who have not yet provided information through the nonfilers portal to do so. During the pandemic, within a matter of days, we initiated the people first initiative, which postponed the deadline for filing to july 15, the latest time in the history of our country, we also temporarily adjusted numerous processes to help people and businesses during these uncertain times. As we will discuss, we have also delivered a historic Filing Season 2020, not only in terms of the volume of tax returns that have been processed, refunds that have been processed, but also in terms of the number of tax returns processed per minute and per second. We have importantly, and one of the matters that im probably as proud as anything else, and we have a lot to be proud of, and i do want to extend the opportunity to meet with each of you individually, collectively, at your leisure, when you ask, we will be there, but importantly for the first time in the history of the Internal Revenue service we will be delivering the form 1040 this year in both english and spanish. Taxpayers will have the opportunity to check a box to indicate the language they wish us to interact with them. Taxpayers who call on our phone lines will have the option to receive Translation Services in more than 350 languages. So when i got on board these numbers were about between six and nine and this all came together by the i opened the doors for our employees, but our employees proudly walked through these doors to provide services in the underserved communities of our country. Our phased in reopening was couched in terms of trying to maintain the health and safety of our employees, balancing that with our responsibilities to this country, which we take seriously, and, sir, before i turn it back over to you, i would be remiss if i didnt call attention to somebody whos been by my side since i came on board two years ago, who has been at every hearing that ive testified in the house as well as the senate. And respectfully is more than my right hand, the person i look up to more than probably anybody else in the Internal Revenue service who is not only a sounding board, but is sitting right behind me, diane grant, on december 1 of this year, we are celebrating her 50th anniversary with the Internal Revenue service, and i do appreciate, sir, your acknowledgment of her. Shes an amazing individual. So now that ive embarrassed her, sir, i will turn it back to the committee. Im glad, commissioner, to hear somebody in the administration Say Something nice about our employees. And you have. Sir, i came on board for the employees, taxpayers and you guys. Thank you for bringing that to our attention and congratulations, ms. Grant. I will open the hearing for questions. Without objection each member will be recognized and were joined by my good friend, mr. Kelly from pennsylvania, he walked all the way from pennsylvania to get here this morning. Each member will be recognized for five minutes to question our witness. If the witness will respond with short and concise answers, if the congressmen will ask questions short and concise, thats unusual, but well try. All members should be able to ask questions. As mentioned earlier we will not observe the gibbons rule. We will instead go in ord of seniority for questioning. Alternating between minority and majority, beginning with the members of the oversight subcommittee. Members attending remotely are reminded to unmute yourselves when you are recognized for your five minutes. And ill begin by recognizing myself for questions, mr. Commissioner. Mr. Rettig, when President Trump took Office Former Congress Former commissioner koskanen volunteered to resign before his term ended. You stated this week that you plan to finish your term. That term ends in 2022, if im not mistaken. Do you agree that you serve at the pleasure of the president , yes or no . Yes. If mr. Rettig says yes, then i want to thank the commissioner and im glad we agree. Will you prooffer your resignation to president elect biden, yes or no . No. If rettig well, youre saying no to that particular question, right . Correct. Im asking you, mr. Commissioner, to prooffer your resignation to the incoming president to facilitate the transition to the new administration. And i will recommend that it be accepted. Mr. Commissioner, under a new administration, if you are asked to provide soon to be former President Trumps tax returns to the committee, will you comply . Sir, as you are aware i cannot discuss issues pertaining to the tax returns since they are involved in a litigation. So youre not answering that question. I cant. Im not asking you anything but, will you provide, if youre asked . Sir and you answered no. Im not going to speculate and i cannot address the question. So you didnt answer no, you said youre not going to ant at this time. I cannot answer the question, sir. Mr. Commissioner, Internal Revenue code section 6103 f, and you are familiar with that by now, correct . Correct. Gives the committee clear and unambiguous authority to obtain anyones tax returns. Fact, the irs has never before denied the Committee Access to any tax returns requested under this particular authority. Mr. Commissioner, with the current backlogs will the 2021 tax Filing Season start in january . And if not, what month do you expect it will begin . We are currently we actually accelerated our programming testing, weve gone through health tests for our equipment, our technology and whatnot. We accelerated that by more than a month so that we would be prepared, since we were not aware of what might happen with respect to continuing resolution or a lapse. So we are on schedule, and per our acting chief Information Officer we are cautiously optimistic, which is for a risk averse agency, the highest level of assurance that we can give you, that we will open on time. We do not make the time determination and have never made the time determination until midapril, once we have gone through our programming the rigors of our programming, testing, development. And we actually test, you know, i think the number is more than a million returns before we indicate that were ready to go. Historically tax season has opened in the end of january. I think on occasion it has happened early in february and we have no reason to believe that it will be later than that time frame but we will advise you if there is something that causes that to change. Mr. Commissioner, do you intend to tell the president elect before he raises his hand on january 20th whether or not where we are in the schedule, anyway, do you think the next administration, deserves the know beforehand, and at that transitional point, will you tell them and give them the information . Sir, my interactions are not with the white house. My interactions are with treasury. And so that would be the course of conduct and discussions that i would have with people. I mentioned in my Opening Statement, im extremely concerned by the unfairness in the irss audit priorities. With many lowincome taxpayers, especially eitc recipients being audited more than wealthy individuals, thats on the record, while i do not have a specific question for you at this time, i want you to know that i have asked the g. A. L. To look at this question and provide data on audits. I think its important enough to look into. Mr. Commissioner im concerned by the recent executive roared that would classify what you called of the your confirmation hearing absolutely world class career irs workers as political appointees. This would undermine the impartiality of the irs. How has the irs taken any steps on this executive order and how many employees do you expect to reclassify . The executive order is under review as i understand it. It requires a response on january 19th, and i would support the comment that i made before and i think that you endorse that we do have world class employees and we have demonstrated that every single day during my two years and before i came on board. I have no problems with the employees. As you well know. My problem is before you got here too. How they are how we operate daytoday, how we put a budget together and since youre part of the administration, is your idea of the budget the same as the president s . You brought up the subject of funding, are you satisfied with the funding you dont have to answer this question. Rhetorical question, are you satisfied that the funding of the irs at this particular time . And including personnel. I know what the numbers are, every year, since 2010. And i know when each president submits his budget, as every other congressman does, and i know what we finally vote on. Can i respond, sir . I didnt ask a question. I know that. I now recognize ms. Wolarski for five minutes to ask her questions and thank her for staying. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Commissioner rettig, i wanted to switch gears here for a second. My office has experienced some difficulty in resolving constituent case work in a timely manner due to the backlog at the kansas city error resolution operation. My understanding is the current backlog is close to 60 days so i know my office isnt alone in the concern that the irs has a backlog of approximately 3 million pieces of unopened mail and 7. 6 million unprocessed tax returns. Im fully aware of whats going on during the pandemic, it has taken a significant toll on all of your operations and i know we have to do better. I have hard working hoosiers in my district who are hurting financially and they need a swift resolution to their cases so they can continue to put food on the table. Given that many irs employees who handle these paper returns have been on covidrelated leave for months can you give us a quick update on the operating status at the Kansas City Center and how we plan to get through this backlog . Let me clarify that the unprocessed return inventory is about 1 million. The mail backlog is about 3 million. Okay. The returns in process, which means that theyve gone through the system and theyre about to be posted is 6. 8 million. Okay. And as weve carried into fiscal 21, were a little bit higher on our carryover from fiscal 20 to fiscal 21, but not noteworthy in terms of risk of the operations, if you will. Okay. And in terms of kansas city and similarly the other three submission processing sites, kansas city is about six weeks behind. We have actually transshipped paper to some of the other sites, memphis, perfresno and austin. Some of the sites one of the sites we have on november 7 was processing receipts that came in on november 6. Another site on november 7 was processing receipts that came in on november 2nd. The third one out october 20. On november 7, they were that caught up and kansas city was at october 2nd. We have actually were working split shifts and were obviously were socially distanced but given the fact that we have so many people teleworking we hit our high this week of 59,000 employees teleworking which is definitely a record for us. That has given us more space so we can socially distance in space where previously we had employees sitting doing Something Else and so we have really done all that we can do. Weve also processed the processing employees overtime and weekend work. And what i can say is, you know, on behalf of the Internal Revenue service and every employee for literally every american, we appreciate the patience and understanding they have had with us. This is not an excuse, but i will say that our employees went through the same exact thing as every other american during covid with respect to health and safety concerns for themselves, for their family, for their neighborhood, their communities and it was of highly uncertain thing. To the extent its created significant hardships, we were doing our best. I was doing my best. I was with one of my idols behind me, and we were trying to figure out everything we could do on a daily basis to lessen burden on people. We did not always, nor would anybody else get things right. I do think as far as a federal agency we did at least as well as any other federal agency given the monumental tasks that we inherited in terms of eips and the business issues. We took on eip programming for both the veterans administration, Social Security administration, while we were doing our Filing Season, which is our normal high risk visible. Sure. So but at the end of the day, i am the person that shut down about 511 of our facilities at the end of march, based on health and safety concerns for our employees. And im also the person that was instrumental in figuring out how we would do a phased in reopening. And we did that in coordination with local authorities, and we have a covid czar, if you will, who not only interacted with all of the federal agencies but interacted with tax authorities throughout the world as what they were doing to lessen the burden on their people. Letting them know what we were doing similarly. So i will say we tried our best. You know, an example of where you all have a right to complain is we did the congressional mailbox. That was an effort to be able for us to be able to work those inbounds overnight, rather than a phone situation where we were not going to be able to answer the volume of phones that were coming in. That was one of my bright ideas, thinking well lets put them in this congressional mailbox. It got overrun and created a series of problems on its own, on a go forward, which you all have questions about, we now have a webbased scenario that were doing. You dont have to go into an email inbox and get transferred several down. So we have lessons learned, as you would hope, and i think expect. I appreciate it, thank you, thank you, mr. Chairman, i yield back. Just on the members in attendance, and consistent with Committee Guidance and practice we will move to two to one questioning. The chair now recognizes ms. Delbany for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman, and thank you, commissioner, for joining us today. In july i led a bipartisan letter with 111 of my colleagues, detailing concerns that our constituents have raised regarding the Economic Impact payments. Since the cares act was signed into law ive had several constituents reach out facing Financial Hardship due to the covid19 pandemic and theyre still waiting for their payment, or an error in their eip to be resolved. In your response to our letter and you referred to this a little bit ago you cited technical challenges from professional eip mailbox. You set up saying those challenges are, quote, attributable to the capacity of the email system being used for the mailbox and the challenges posed by the Inventory Management tools on the platform, end quote. Commissioner, you talked a little bit about what youd do differently. What do we need to do, what technical challenges do you face, and systems modernization is a very important issue at the irs. I wonder if you can address what needs to happen in order to make sure we can respond better to issues like this in the future. Thank you, and as i indicated, i am the person who made the decision on the mailbox. We implemented that within a matter of days. It seemed like the right decision at the time. It did get overrun. And i think i have, and i will continue to apologize. In terms of modernization, in april of 2019 the irs issued its integrated business modernization plan which was a sixyear plan with a funding requirement between 2. 3 billion and 2. 7 billion. The first two years of that plan, the funding thats been allocated has been about half. Of what was requested. And therefore, obviously, its extended beyond a sixyear time frame. So we have and would certainly welcome the opportunity to sit with you to go through what we have we are planning for modernization, both under our modernization plan as well as youre aware that were implementing the a plan which we will deliver soon up on the hill for the Taxpayer First act which has its independent set of modernization features. And whatnot. But the last part of your comment, i think, is, you know, what can you expect from us Going Forward . Well, you can expect from us Going Forward is we have lessons learned, we have a lot of partnerships and a lot of industry specialists on the outside that we contract with. So its not an irs alone project in terms of modernization. And i would include congress in that same feature as its you know, were in it together and we have done a lot of briefings, our staff have done a lot of briefings on the hill, we would continue to do so so if invited we will come up to the hill to do briefings where we are with respect to modernization and i think youre going to receive briefings, depending on calendars, but either in december or early january with respect to the Taxpayer First act which has also an independent set of significant modernization features to it. Mr. Commissioner, how would your irs plans for fiscal year 21 be cut back if funding is not increased over the fiscal year 20 levels . We know that senate appropriate r ers have not increased irs funding, what would happen if that funding is not increased in fiscal year 2021 . The agency has a history of reacting to funding challenges, lets say that, and we operate in a variety of ways. 70 of our budget is staffing and that we have significant rates of attrition. And so not by choice but that tends to be one of the first issues that goes. We do not cut funding for our Mission Critical core activities, nor would we. But we will adjust and we will adjust as the agency has done throughout. I would like to make one quick point, also, in addition to all that, i believe that just about every Administration Since 2010 has made a request in the administrations budget for a Program Integrity cap, which is specialized funding specifically addressing and appropriated for enforcement activities, and i believe that since 2010 that has never been approved or funded. And so as long as im here, if i can take that opportunity to make a pitch that, you know, it would help if folks would look in that direction for the agency. I understand the importance of modernizing the technology, having a great workforce is also critically important so those cutbacks are having an impact on the on our constituents and the response they get so i appreciate you raising how critical it is that we have those resources available. My times expired, thank you, mr. Chairman, i yield back. Thank you. Time has expired. Were going to continue two to one questioning. Im going to call on, in a second, ms. Sanchez from california, the gentlelady but i want to say this. Commissioner. Since 1910 2010, rather, and in the last years leading up it will now, in the enforcement area, which is under your guidance and responsibility, weve gone from 50,524 employees to you know these figures better than i, to 33,529. Thats down 17,000 employees. Thats all wonderful, and we both agree to praise the workers because theyre darn they need it because they very seldom get it but these are our numbers. The employees did not vote for this. And in the Taxpayer Service it went from its less of a hit, went from 32,000 to 29,000 so thats a 3,000 different. You cannot enforce the law, i would say, and you may disagree with me, with 17,000 less employees than you had nine, ten years ago. Sir, im not only going to disagree with you, but i will i think its appropriate at this time to indicate that from 2011 to 2018 we had a hiring freeze as well. And so with attrition and a hiring freeze, you know, i will say that two commissioners ago made comments that well do more with less, the last commissioner indicated well do less with less, and i have not said that because i think that puts the burden on our employees and the ones who are with us are working really hard and get it and they want to do it and what i have said during my two years is we want to do more. We will work within the we dont vote for funding. We will work within the funding that we receive. Its my job and the job of our Leadership Team to allocate that funding as best we can and as appropriately as we can. And youve heard us, or should have heard us talk about being in every neighborhood. We will not only be in the more visible areas but we need to provide services across the board. And sometimes we need to take funding appropriations from one issue to another issue, which lowers a level of service or lowers a level of enforcement. So reclaiming my time. Thank you, mr. Commissioner. I want to thank you, and return to our regular order. And thank mr. Kelly. I now ask the gentlelady from california, ms. Sanchez, the floor is yours for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Mr. Commissioner, thank you for joining us today. Id like to start with an issue that i raised at our previous hearing regarding the extent to which the irs has unfairly been focusing on the wrong population for audits. All taxpayers need to follow the law, but the current tale of two tax systems is unacceptable. Specifically, im speaking of the audit rate for taxpayers earning over a Million Dollars per year. As im sure you likely know, mr. Commissioner, the audit rate for those taxpayers has been cut in half. But the Automated Program that audits lowincome taxpayers is chugging along at higher rates. We recently heard testimony from experts regarding how audits impact tax law compliance and deter cheating. Mr. Commissioner, do you agree that audits impact compliance and deter cheating . Do i agree that i missed the last part, maam. Do you agree that audits impact compliance and deter cheating . Correct, i agree. Okay. Then why is your agency choosing to go after the lowest return amounts at far higher rates, while leaving the wealthy nearly unchecked . Maam, i believe youre referring to the earned income tax credit examinations, which are the correspondence examinations that we perform. There is a 25 no, no, no, mr. Commissioner, i am referring to audits overall. And overall, taxpayers who make over a Million Dollars, their audit rates have been cut in half. And yet audit rates for very low income americans have continued to increase. Why are you not equally enforcing our tax laws across income levels . We are enforcing it. Id be willing to sit with you to walk you through the statistics on that as far as also the staffing that we have on that. I can tell you that substantially every experienced revenue agent, which are our top end examiners are focused on the high income taxpayers, and are absolutely not focused on the lower income taxpayers. Well, that i would appreciate the opportunity to sit with you. I welcome that opportunity. Because its i think most americans, nobody loves to pay taxes. But i think most americans feel like they dont mind paying their fair share, so long as everybody is paying their fair share. But statistically speaking, and i will we will sit down at a later date and i will go through the statistics with you, statistically speaking, wealthy americans are not being scrutinized. And very low income americans are, and its no wonder that they feel frustrated that, you know, theyre being targeted when wealthy americans seem to have a different irs experience all together. But we will sit down at a future date because i absolutely will take you up on that because i absolutely know for a fact that that is true. Im not looking to meet to debate the issue. Im looking to meet another issue that is important, which are reports that suggest that the issue that is important, the irs backlogs may be preventing some americans from receiving advanced payments of the premium tax credit. That delay could lead them to become uninsured i want to know if the irs and you will commit to working with others in the administration to fix that issue in an ongoing pandemic. Unless you disagree, i think it is pretty important for people to have their Health Care Coverage during a pandemic. So could you provide a update in writing on resolving the backlog . As well as an assessment of how many people are eligible and are potentially impacted. Yes, can i give you one real brief comment . Individuals self attest to that. As of january 1. And the cms actually comes back in march to reconcile that. There is no lack of involvement in the Internal Revenue service that would procollude anyone from receiving that insurance. But we did k go through that and i would discuss that later today or at your convenient to provide that information. I did read the same thing. I would appreciate your cooperation with that. I yield back my time. Im glad we agree this is a critical issue featured here and we have seen numbers of where the audits over the years, and how they have changed. We would like to have solid numbers from you that you would verify and give to all of the members of not only this committee but perhaps everybody should know. I want to thank the gentle lady for that issue. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from pennsylvania, mr. Kelly. Thank you, chairman. First i want to just mention some legislation. And would allow for the reimbursement of physicaltivity. And to do this we purr pose an expansion to include qualified physical activities as a form of disease preventions. So allowing these people to have these would go a long way. One other thing they would like to mention, this was a big day for all of us, we did the Taxpayer First implementation act with mr. Lewis, that was a great day for us. But that act does require some longterm implementation work by the agency. The challenges that youre facing with that, is there anything you need help from congress with to help out with that . Funding. That act passed with no funding attached to it. So we are good at doing things like that, passing things. I want to bring up this audit rate thing. I guess if you say it long enough apeople will agree to it but mrs. Sanchez brought up a good point, the fact that we are going after these photos at a higher rate. So just to resit rate what you said back in october for taxpayers with income over 10 million per year, it is 8. 6 . For taxpayers with an income between one million and four million it is around 3 , and for eits it is 1. 129 . I dont have a degree in math, but i have the ablgt to look at the numbers and if anyone can tell me that eit recipients are being audited more than anyone else the figures dont lie. Would you reiterate that . I think we could clear it up and we would not have to keep rolling it around. Yes, and the chairman asked about the numbers as well. The numbers are published annually in our data book. The last is the 2019 data book and we will make it available to every member of your sub committee. But the individuals over 10 million is 8. 12 . Individuals between one and five million is 1. 25 . And i would like to indicate that there is no focus on lower income taxpayers and definitely not on any of our testimonies with respect to the individuals that make up any of these taxpayer groups, but to the extent that people indicate that the eit is focused on lower income, but annually, in the last one is fiscal 19, in the eitc world there was about 25 Million People claiming the eitcs, and there was a 25 , and that means they paid 17. 4 billion to that group and we were unable to verify they were entitled to it. I agree that this is important money for important people. It is a subsidy that. It is getting to the right people and it is characterized by giving information to the taxpayer on thangs that are complex. We need to be addressed by congress at the appropriate time. This committee in particular is responsible for oversight and what were talking about is the hard earned dollars. No one would run a business like that and think this is the right time. Mr. Chairman, i yield back. We need to take a look at this, mr. Chairman. I think commissioner, we talked about this i think, mentioned it, and we see the numbers, the percentages of them and i think that is very important to look into. We have not concentrated on the fact that affluent people, and there is nothing wrong with affluency, have lawyers that other people do not have. This is not your fault or problem and we cant lay it on your lap. But we have two systems of taxes, those that have lawyers and those that dont. If you want to challenge, and you want your lawyers to look up lo loophol loopholes, you have no choice either. So i think all parties are here. And i think we need to take clarify it. I want to go to mr. Swanzey. Thank you, it is good to have you testifying. Youre in a tough spot. The irs is always a punching bag, you lost so many resources as an attention since 2010. I know youre a dedicated professional. You have a great background, and youre a committed Public Servant and youre in a tough spot and you have the whole issue with the president s taxes that i would hope that the future treasury secretary doesnt encourage you to do it. We need to demonstrate the power of the committee to review the issue of auditing the irss own regulations that say you must au. D. D audit and the vice president. I think we need to review how that is done. So you agree that the irs had 17,000 employees cut since 2010, do you agree with that . Thats the statistics. Do you agree theyre 22 overall . Thats correct. And revenue agents are down since 2010 . Thats correct. And the audit thats have taken place are down 45 since 2010 . I hesitate to say this because the audits are down, we have technological advances and we need to but it does not make up for the drop in staffing. We need to improve the tole, dont we . Isnt that correct . It is significantly more than three billion. How much do you think we need to spend to improve the technology at the irs . It depends the best we can be. It will be between 6 billion to 7 billion. So we need 6 billion to 7 billion. Is it 50 50 . A third, sir. For the old system. We need to modernize the irs with better technology, money to do that, correct . I agree. And we need more employees for the irs and we need money to do that, right . And the money that we invest in better employees will make more money as a federal government by bringing more money in from improving on the tax gap, is that correct . Yes, the ratio is a 5 to 7 return. So that doesnt take into the deterrent time. Over a billion dollars in assets, i dont know if it is a billion in assets or revenue. A billion dollars in assets, theyre down 51 since 2010, is that correct . For the people that make a strike that, people that have a Million Dollars in assets or more, their audits are down 61 since 2010 . I think that is an income number. Okay. So people who make a Million Dollars or more, their audits are down 61 since 2010 . So you need more money for technology updrading. If you had better technologies you could do a better job auditing all different types of people, and you would bring in more money. Five to seven times more. And we would be able to provide Better Service for every american. Thank you, i yield back. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Im grate fful they are protectg their own workforce. But im disturbed that theyre continuing to issue levee and lien notices. They are being penalized because the irs has not processed their filings. So i ask for a letter from the american institute. Despite the backlog, and how large the backlog is it is such a process to date, and whether or not we can continue the process. And the letter, you know, 36 years, im in touch with thousands of practitioners. And what they are asking for was for us to go beyond the first time and beyond reasonable cause for individual, and they said if someone already has one, they dont get a second one and they default to reasonable call causes. Theyre not merely career employees that looked at this, more than ten people came on board and looked at this as well and were not willing to provide an open forum for professionals. Commissioner, they understand your on junction to just a blanket kind of approval. Tax professionals to at least make their case. We do have a practicer priority line that is staffed, and so, you know, i will go back i have personal friends who are if i could look at that, these are not conversations that happened in isolation. We have talked quite a bit about your tighter annual budgets and the hiring freezes and the workforce that is able to conduct audits, and i think they have to provide the resources they need to effectively and fairly enforce our tax code to high income individuals who are avoiding taxes all together and it is estimating that if there was proper funding they could bring in 1. 3 trillion by 2030. I know you had recent calls for a multiyear budget. In your opinion are there parts that should be prioritized for mandatory multiyear spending and if so what should they be . Should enforcement be a priority. Enforcement is Taxpayer Service that those who are at risk. The modernization, mostly we talk about modernization, people look at it as an ability to provide Better Services. But enforcement is one of our core components. One of our core missions. And a visible Enforcement Effort is significant in terms of creating deterrents on the outside. I used the terminology that we need to be in every neighborhood. Unfortunately we have had, say, 15 priorities, each of which cost a priority to get off of the ground. What about the issue of the multiyear spending . Multiyear spending is for modernization as much as anything else for us. And what it does, our it side of the house, we get knowledge of a number and we gear up and we get it late in the year and we cant implement the number by the close of that year and we have to deal with the funding. Then we start it over again next year and the year after and the year after. It is very difficult for us. Thats why the multiyear component, we can plan accordingly and acquire product accordingly. It is just not the way to be done. I still hope that it would be for enforcement. Yeah. I yield back. Well thank you, mr. Chairman. I want to thank Ranking Member and commissioner red kidick for being here today. I proosht you being here to discuss the irs efforts. It is a true testament of the irss dedication to quick, meaningful guidance to taxpayers. Commissioner reddick within a matter of weeks, the irs was sending out Economic Impact payments to taxpayers. This was real money that supported many of my twen constituents around people across the country. It went to groceries, rent, car payments, and other necessities. Moving forward those who did not receive an Economic Impact payment had the opportunity to claim the recovery rebate credit for 20920 Filing Season. Commissioner reddick, many of my constituents are interested in claiming this credit next year. Can you provide details on the recovery rebate credit . Will it be as simple as checking a box from the tax rebate form . There is a schedule work sheet that will be included with the 2020 return that provides for individuals to not only claim the credit, but if they received an amount of credit that they disagree with they can put the work sheet together. We would obviously check that, but it would be part of the return. And that work sheet that you referenced, is that something that has been distributed already . I would have to get back to you on that. Im not sure if it is public yet but that is certainly the concept. Changing topics, i know it was mentioned previously, they are interacting with the irs this season. The assistant centers, limited staff, long wait times with the call centers. Further complicating the situation was the inability to process paper while Service Centers were closed. The act included dr 2 billion for funding to help address some of the tracks. How important is it that congress, for congress to make that investment in modernization and could they prevent our constituents from having to face similar challenges in the future. That was carefully determined and that would be a game changer from every american. It would be specifically appropriated for it, technology, and would literally be a game changer and assure every american that we are able to provide the Services Including if we get another round of eips or similar. Thank you to the gentleman from illinois. The chair now recognizes the gentlelady from wisconsin. Thank you for your appearance here today, i want to join the rest of my colleagues and the hard working ideas. I want to commend them on standing up some really outstanding interventions. With the Economic Impact payments and particularly putting together the portal that we will discuss in a little bit to identify the taxpayers that were not nonfinaling nonfiling taxpayers, most of my colleagues have left me a clear path to ask the next question. He was in common for questions from chairman pascal or the Ranking Member. It is for people that are audited and those who are not. You talk about the 66 billion burden that the earned income taxpayers provide on an annual basis, but i just want to note that the tax gap is like 446 billion. So my question is real simple. Just say, for example, that youre reappointed or you continue your appointment, i guess as the commissioner of the irs. What would you provide as way of a budget submission to increase irs funding to cover these clear gaps that we have in enforcement and training. What would be your increased budget request . On a top end . That would get us to the equivalent of 2010, and it might not take into account. The strength of our agency, we earn and we continue to trust this. It is attributable to our employees, our front line employees, the wage and investment plan, i agree with you so much, commissioner, but you need more money as we have indicated. I coauthored a letter and most of the members that we have signed on to it and we have seen a huge uptick in domestic violence. While staying at home has not been safer for people one of the impacts has been okay, victims have not gotten their payments. They in fact you cannot make replacement payments because of u. S. 31. There was a Taxpayer Advocate. But you really have the ability to book a category 4 payment that provide these separately need desperately needed payments, or something. But what do you plan to do with 2021 as you continue to be a problem, and i would yield to you with that answer. First would be that on legislation like this that the irs be part of it in terms of what we can administer. The cares act very specific as to who is an eligible american and in the context of domestic violence, those payments were properly made in accordance with the income tax returns, and if it wasnt direct spost or properly made. Maam, were extremely sensitive, and the victims that seem like domestic violence. If we had discretion, or believed that we had discretion to do so, we could do so. That is why i will go forward saying there is another round with respect to Economic Impacts, a couple of others make sessions, perhaps. We are certainly underserved at the end of the day. But nina olson is not council for the United States government. The government is chief council and then you have the department of justice, the treasury, and what not. If i felt that i could, taughtly with the stroke of a pen make payments to people, but the irs im a tax add m administrator. My time has expired, but but it is for the record, and i will take that without objection, sir. Thank you, mr. Chairman, i yield with that. The chair now recognizes mr. Boyle. Thank you, mr. Chairman. It is not just the opportunity for members of congress to exercise oversite and take testimony from the witness. But it is also for us to listen to the experiences of other colleagues. And i have been instruction by how remarkably similar the experiences of constituents in other districts have been to my own. The first republican member to speak, she said almost verbatim what i was going to read in terms of the 2019 tax refund backlogs. So commissioner, and i appreciate you being here and when you initially reached out to me way back precovid to sit down and talk about how the ooerksirs can work more effectively, i want to reiterate my constituents in philadelphia, pennsylvania are having the same issues with 2019 pax returns. Specifically, the backlog at that kansas city site, for my constituents when they and the irs processes them, our ability on the front lines deals with constituents has been impacted by how hard it is. I able point out that the way it has been set up in the office, they are not able to get us the information that we need to be able to relay to our constituents. And changing that is really important. Were the ones on the front lines dealing with people. I have four different district officers in my direct because we prioritize. For a lot of our stwenconstitue they dont look at voting or policy. It is nuts and bolts of service that matters. When i have someone waiting on a tax refund far larger than the eip, and they have not been able to get it or been able to get information, and the Taxpayer Advocate office is so swamped that they cant hear anything, it is enormously frustrating and the folks in my office who also live in and around philadelphia have been doing an excellent job i want to recognize jim kennedy in my office that developed a real expertise on these issues. It is normally frustrating. I would pass along that as reiterating or underscoring what some of my colleagues have talked about. We have been seeing the same experience if we could reform that system it would just be a better experience for our constituents. Moving on, let me speak about the eips. The Economic Impact payments. My constituents having a very similar experience to that of my colleague susan. Simple things, and they had to wait nine months for that to be committed. So i think they all point to the third point they want to recognize. And im sorry i cant see the timer here, so for give me, mr. Chairman, there we go, looks like i have a minute left. I will just conclude with this. The 35 reduction staff is clearly part of the problem. And if we can work on a bart basis to restore the irs work force in the end of the day it would save more taxpayer money than it costs. If there is anything that you want today address in that, i would certainly welcome in. I would indicate a pitch for people to i just wanted to, i should have mentioned this earlier. A lot of the constituents that were servicing dont have the ability to do it online as part of the problem. I recall our meeting before. But generally for the others, because fl there is resources here and resources there. If you put something together for mr. Boil. The time is up, but i want you to have the ability to respond to him. Can you write to him in the next week or so . I will and we will talk to him again. Yes, thank you commissioner, and i appreciate that, chairman. Thank you. Before i call on mr. Winthrup, it just occurred to me that i think using percentages, mr. Commissioner, when we talk about audits, is very misleading. Ly tell you why i think. If you look at real numbers, taxpayers with incomes of over 10 million, 10 million or more, there is 1500 audits. 380,000, there is not as many millionaires, multimillionaires, as there are people on eit. But were focusing on the eip taxpayers, talking about individual taxpayers and the grief they go through. I dont think they the whole answer. Thats all i would say to them. Sure. I agree with you. The questions that we have been fielding at lower incomes are as disproportionate. Sirt, were not out of sync on this. We need what do we need . We need the resources to do it better, the eitc should not be an issue for any american. We need to change that statue. We have ideas but it takes congressional action to change it. We are not collectively in this situation and that we are not burdening the lower income taxpayers that need and deserve these funds. Thank you, mr. Commissioner. I recognize mr. The gentleman from ohio, it is great to see you here. Thank you, commissioner, for being here. I want to tech kecho some of th sentiments of my staff. It is a lot of issues as well, and particularly kelly. You believe that the irs has to operate from the taxpayers perspective. Thats who we end up taking the view of. One of my constituents reached out and asked for guidance. The flexible spending account, and she was notified that she would not be able to use that to pay for virtual preschool. And for Many Americans around the country its not being given to them as an option right now so they face a situation and while i hope that all schools, not just some schools, can safely and smartly reopen this is just an issue that we face right now. This is a birdie placed on a lot of families. And so as you know many families save for their childrens education by putting funds into these accounts. Recently i sent a letter to the irs requesting what i think is a reasonable combination for them to cover the costs associated with virtual dependent care services. Does the irs, are you able to issue guidance on allowable uses for these accounts . I do recall your letter. I think the treasury respond e responded to your letter. Were tax administrators and the policy question about where to open that up to would be a treasury decision. The irs did issue it. Spem lacing it, and it could be a probable when they are coming in but they are not using the whereholdings. And having said that often at the government were quick to say we issued an announcement. I understand that is not the case. So im saying we did something, im not saying it solved the problem. So they can temporarily use these dollars. The announcement was that they should stop contributing during the pap determindemic if doing the home schooling. The treasury responded to you, i believe there are several others, taken into consideration and i suggest interactions with treasury. And were doing that as well. Im just asking if youre able to issue guidance on that. And if what the policy decision, maybe we dont go back to our building today. Im hoping that we could probably issue that guidance. But the guidance, suggestion, whatever i think the suggestion has been made one of the other constituents reached out raising concerns about penalties levelled on tax preparers for failing to submit returns due to delays beyond their control. I know hows and thousands of ako accountan accountants, cpas, and others in the practice. They have a first time automatic abatement of this and under the guise of the pandemic it should be looked at liberally. Thank you very much, i yield back. Doctor, thank you, a pleasure to be here today. The chair now recognizes for five minutes the gentleman from illinois, mr. Davis. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman, for giving me the opportunity to participate commissioner, thank you for your service and thank you for being here with us. And i also want to give a word of commendation to the Taxpayer Advocates in the Regional Office in chicago. Who have been steadfast and very helpful to my office. During this period. I am in the unlawful denial for incarcerated individuals and their families doing history imeconomic crisis and they have had effects on communities of color and they have harmed africanamericans that are vastly over represented in the friday population. When ordered by the courts to stop the eips, the Internal Revenue service insisted that the incarcerated complete a complicated form knowing they lack access to the technology to use they are part of the incarcerated status. A form similar seems like a intentional effort to limit the eips claims. It disproportionally harms africanamericans. Commissioner, will you meet with the leadership of the Congressional Black Caucus to discuss our concerns about the racial implications of recent Internal Revenue decisions . Sir, i would be honored to meet with you and the others. I met with john louis on three occasions. And i, one i take umbridge for the term intentional. But we are very proud of our Diverse Workforce and our respect for all people in this country. An we reflect the people that we serve which including incarcerated people. I have a workforce of 80,000 people and i guarantee you we have thousands of family members that are incarcerated. We are no different, but i would be honored to meet with you and others. Invite me. Thank you, we look forward to that eight months after the cares act became law, we asked when are you going to pay the spouses of the incarcerated . It is my understanding that all of the prison related issues have gone out, keep in mind were getting information from our portal currently. But in a week ore so. I look. Forward to a review of that information. A colleague of mine from virginia had a constituent for the beneficiary that contacted the Internal Revenue service because he did not receive an eip. The irs told him he was deceased. He then contacted this sub compete for help and although the irs corrected his record, he refused to process it this year guz he had been considered for an eip when he was listed as deceased. Could he be paid immediately . First, it is maintained by the beautiful services. And the eips were issued because the mandate didnt work as soon as possible. We would have to undo all of them. We are aware, we have not been able to work through this. But were definitely aware of this issue, sir. Thank you very much. Can i ask, i have a extent that has taken more than two months to reissue a payment. Is there a reason this has taken so long . I would like to have the persons information. But we would be able to track relatively quickly to find out what the issue is. Ly have someone reach out to your office this afternoon. I dont know if you have the power of attorney. We could speak to you and the person. Thank you, i appreciate your responses, i have unanimous consent to have two letters submitted to the Congressional Black Caucus. Mr. Davis, please, you stand for the voice less and the most vulnerable. I think that is what the main question is stood. And i dont think that is political. And now the chair now recognized for five minutes the gentleman from illinois mr. Schneider. Thank you, mr. Chairman, thank you for joining us today, i do want to say as others have said many of the issues that were hearing are in my district. We are seeing improvements in service. And my office has been in touch with a lot of constituents and they have dwroet receive their Economic Impact payments. We have been working with them and so my question, my first question is that until these cases are resolved, they are not able to return in the aca. We continue to forward the details. Can you commit that you and your staff will ensure that it is done as soon as possible. I could not hear all of your comments, but i will have someone on my behalf to comment you this afternoon. I appreciate that, can you hear me now . Can you speak again . Interestingly when i had your button on, i seemed i could hear you. Are you able to hear you . I can hear you now. So as i move on, i would like to go through a couple issues related to tax exempt populations. They are Critical Service providers, groups, community bidding, because of their taxpayers, they provide a little tax status, but with this status comes an expectation that the organizations will work toward their mission and not agugs their status. So i would like to go through some of the different scenarios and get your take. I asked similar questions of the treasury secretary in may. First, they annually contract for millions of dollars in products and services. They leg tharly inflate prices. With such a finding, will you find such an entanglement . I believe these questions are beyond hypothetical and might be related to a referral that we received. I find all of them be troubling and i can certainly say that to you. Again, im not singling out any organization specifically at moment, but if an organization has a profrieder that is being grekted annually to that provider, but they have a stake in that company, is that a source of veteran for you . A Nonprofit Organization with a financial interest in a vendor. And theyre directing business to that vendor. It appears, i would say, is a conflict of interest . Im not going to speculate, but i come back to the same thing. Particularly in the nonprofit world, it is not only complia e compliance, but also the appearance of impro pryty. Their supported by pax bayer dollar thats have gone elsewhe elsewhere. Is it is fair to say we would want them, who hold up to the highest level of ethics. Conflicts of interest. Personal self dealing, all of these are issues that are restricted by nonprofits, is that correct . Yeah, there is a whole host of provisions specific to nonprofits that are there for a reason, and it is not just, you know in the ordinary sense for a taxable taxpayer, it is like interest and penalties here to use my term, it is not a code term, but the appearance is, i think, at least equally important. They have benefits that other taxpayers do not. Right, to im about to run out of time, but you know im talking about the nra, the selfdealing that has been reported. The level of concern related to the activities reported is concerning. And i want to make sure they protect not just taxpayers but the donors to the organization thats are taking advantage. Theyre not making donations to subsidize peoples lifestyles or habits. With they that i yield back. I would like to thank our witnesses. In this case the commissioner. For joining us today. Please be advised that members have two weeks to answer questions and submit them later in writing. They will be made part of the formal hearing record. Mr. Commissioner, i believe that i adhered to the conditions of our meeting today. Staying away from the president s taxes with your direction. Kind of. But i want you to know, to me, this is not a political issue. To me this is, as i said on february the 19th, 2017, when i asked mr. Kevin brady if it was at that time, the chairman of the ways and means committee, we ask these in a bipartisan man sore we would devoid it becoming a partisan issue. I do ask you to respond e respond respectfully. This is a bigger issue and i hope you will be able to come before us and talk about it. I you to do that. Im not immuning your lack of response to this because you told me you would not respond. That is where im at. Thank you for being here today i hope this begins a process of you being here once in awhile. We didnt refuse the later, we declined to speak about the topics, which i cannot speak about, and we indicated that i would be here in november, and i am here, and i will come back, sir. We had debate over what we could discuss and what not. I wont question your response, but its not going after anybody. The question about who the irs investigates, and who the irs audits, because if you remember this is before you. This is prereddick the irs investigated the irs commissioner. At the end of all of the questioning, they questioned 10 people, they called in some ways liberal, organizations, they are questioned and their names are made public. You know because it deals with privacy as well. They were questioned. And nothing was found. After their names were made public, and one has to wonder there was no apology ever give ton these people. So when people say take politics out of it, i return to that question all of the time. Those were the facts. And i could tell you one thing, you dont know anything about me and i know very little about you but i do appreciate sincerely your coming today and making yourself available and im sure were going to meet again. We are adjourned. Up next on the civil war, Caroline Wood newhall of civil war studies discusses the black prisoners of war in the confederacy. She talks about how colored troops were executed and describes how many instead were enslaved, including those born free in the north. Virginia tech hosted this online talk and provided the video. On todays event, our speaker is dr. Caroline wood newhall. She graduated with her phd earlier this year from the university of north carolina, and she joined us this year at Virginia Tech for the center for civil war studies. Im certainly glad shes here, and i think you all will be as well once you hear her talk. Its clear shes going to bring an awful lot to Virginia Tech in