Transcripts For CSPAN3 History Bookshelf Jim Rasenberger The Brilliant Disaster 20240711

Supported by the u. S. Government and resulted in the capture or death of more than 1000 men. This was recorded in florida in 2011. It is about one hour. This evening, books and books is pleased to welcome mr. Jim ratzenberger and his new book brilliant disaster jfk, castro, and americas doomed invasion of cubas bay of pigs. He has written for the New York Times, vanity fair, smithsonian, and the wilson quarterly, among others. His most recent book was american 1908, and he is also the author of high steel. He examines the u. S. Backed military invasion of cuba in 1961 in this book, one of the most ill fated blunders in american history. He draws on long hidden cia documents, and delivers, as never before, the truth and consequences of those five pivotal days in april of 1961. Here to tell us more, give a warm welcome to mr. Jim ratzenberger. [applause] jim perfect. Thank you. Thank you for that introduction. Thank you to books and books for having me. This is a wonderful bookstore. I had not been here before. I came earlier today. It is fantastic. Support it. I urge you to buy a book before you leave. It does not have to be mine, but if you wanted to be, that is fine with me. As im sure all of you know by now, we on the eve of the 50th anniversary of the bay of pigs invasion of cuba. Placeot think of a better to launch my new book then with you here. Im sure many of you have personal history of the event and some deep knowledge of it, and i thank you for coming. And this is a story i wanted to tell for a long time. There are a number of reasons i wanted to tell it for a long time, but the main reason is i think it is one of the most fascinating and important stories in modern american history. I hope if you read the book, you will share that opinion with me. Before i go into detail, i should probably give a brief overview of what the bay of pigs was for those of you who do not know. If there are any of you. Oruspect anyone my age older, i was born just after the bay of pigs, is pretty familiar with it simply because we grew up hearing about it. Those of you who are younger are forgiven. You are not forgiven for being younger. There is no forgiveness for that, you are forgiven for not knowing much about something that happened before you were born. For the sake for those not familiar, let me go through a brief overview and basic facts. It was a fiveday event that occurred in april of 1961. Madhose of you who are men fans, that is just after season one, if that orients you. Suppliedles trained, and backed by the United States government, and tempting to invade cuba and overthrow fidel castro. Attack began on april 15, 1961, when a fleet of eight b 26 bers, cloned by excuban exiled cuban pilots, intended to destroy Fidel Castros air force. Two days later after midnight of april 17, they invasion itself began. About 1400 men, again, cuban 2506, known as brigade came ashore at the Southern Coast of cuba at an area called the bay of pigs. The plan was to establish and hold a beachhead and eventually spark an uprising against fidel castro. That was the plan, but it did not work out that way. The brigade ran into trouble almost immediately. Within two days of landing, it was over. Men who came ashore, over 100 were killed and the ,est were sent fleeing to sea some in boats, and in swamps. There was a vast everglades. There, they were rounded up by castros soldiers and thrown into cuban jails. For fidel castro, who looked like david who slayed bianchi goliath, this was a supreme victory. It is still a victory that cubans celebrate today. Agos in cuba exactly a year for the 49th anniversary, and it is remarkable how around havana and not at the bay of pigs, there are billboards all over, celebrating the victory against yankee imperialism. This 50th anniversary, they will be marking it with the parade and all sorts of celebrations. I am expecting too many celebrations here. That is because for the United States, it was a disaster. It was a personal tragedy for and it was took part a humiliation for the Kennedy Administration, it had only been in power less than three months. At first, the administration tried to insist that the United States had nothing to do with this and the exiles side gone in on their own, but that sciorra did not last long. Very soon, the whole world knew the truth, which was the brigade was trained by the cia, supplied with american equipment, and invasion approved by the joint chief of staff, and ultimately the president of the United States. This has been a United States operation, and the failure was a distinct american embarrassment. One American General said it was the worst defeat suffered since the war of 1912 1812. That was the kindest thing anyone said. Everyone agreed it was a mistake they would never forget or repeat. But they were wrong. Forgottens it largely , but in much of america, it is. We went on to repeat some of the same mistakes we made in cuba and other parts of the world. The bay of pigs turned out to be a curtain raiser on a whole new europe, an era we are still in today. By one count, United States engaged in no dozen then two dozen a no fewer than two that forced invasions, and does not include our entanglements in iraq, afghanistan and libya. Invasionsother since the bay of pigs, you may be asking, why do we care about the bay of pigs . Next to iran and iraq, it may seem minor or an appetizer before the huge feast of troubled interventions. Just five days but cost a mere 46 million. That is about less than the average budget of a hollywood movie these days. And then, of course, the fact that it was an embarrassment and it has everything to recommend it for bolivia. Heres the thing, a change this important ways. It changed how americans look at the government and how the rest of the world looked at us. Prior to the bay of pigs, it would have been a cynical american who doubted he lived in a good nation led by competent men and engaged in worthy exploits. For was a possible view americans 50 years ago after world war ii. The bay of pigs made that view harder to hold onto. It had the distinction of making the United States look like a bully and weak. This is what kennedys aide wrote in his journal shortly after the invasion. We not only look like imperialists, we look like ineffectual imperialists, which is worse, and we look like stupid, ineffectual imperialists, which is worst of all. In many ways, the 1960s, that decade of questioning authority, again with the bay of pigs. This was the first step into the vietnam era, even before vietnam. What you may not realize, what i did not realize until i wrote the book, is how much the affected thetself bay of pigs. I want to go back a few years before the bay of pigs and focus on that because of invasion. Here is the central question, and when we dont have a good answer to yet. How do Something Like this happen . My ambition in this book, beyond telling what i think is a fascinating story as well as i could, i was to go back once more and look at these events as clearly as possible, with no axes to grind, with no fingerpointing. Not trying to blame anyone, not trying to exonerate anybody, just trying to find out as best i could, the truth. With that goal in mind, i began my narrative before the invasion. To understand it, you need to know not just what happened for the context in which it happened. I begin two years before the bombs began to fall in cuba, exactly two years to the day. April 15, 1959. That evening, fidel castro arrived in the United States for a visit. The was his first visit to United States since he took over cuba at the start of the year. Dwight eisenhower was still president , Richard Nixon Vice President , and john kennedy was a junior senator from massachusetts still. Castro came to deliver a speech to newspaper editors, but the visit was more like an invasion in its own right. A charm offensive. He arrived in washington with cuban cigars and rum. He spent most of the visit hugging and smiling and saying all the right things. There were some americans, including some in the Eisenhower Administration, including dwight eisenhower, who had serious concerns about dwight eisenhower, mainly that he was a communist in the making. And he found him to be charming and charismatic. After a few days in washington, he went to new york city. From the moment he arrived at penn station, where he was greeted by 20,000 people, he had a grand old time. He went to the top of the empire state building, shook hands with jackie robinson, went to city hall, columbia university. Having less fun where the policeman in new york city, assigned to protect him because there were these fascination plots surrounding castro, and these were reported in the press every day. None turned out to be real, but the press did not know that. Castro was impossible to protect. He would throw himself into crowds, hugging and kissing people with no concern for safety. On the way, one afternoon, he decided to go to the bronx zoo. The press followed, federal agents, new York City Police followed, and castro did what everybody does at the zoo, he ate a hot dog, fed peanuts to the elephants, rode a train, and before anybody could stop him, he climbed over a protective railing in front of the tiger cages and stuck his fingers through and headed a bengal pettedn the head pett a bengal tiger on the head. These other things he would do that made people think he was a little crazy. They had to answer the following questions, was fidel castro communist . In the late 1950s and early 1960s, the battle on International Communist conspiracy was the organizing principle on which American Foreign policy was based. It was not just the spread of communism that they feared but the fact that communists had nuclear weapons. Given the rhetoric coming out of also to kristof said things, like we will bury you. Those were his words. They seem more and more willing to use them. Country 90 miles from american shores was tolerable really to everybody. So, fidel castro was interrogated on the subject of communism everywhere he went on his visit. Bye president nixon, congressional subcommittee, scores of journalists, everyone asked him, dr. Castro, are you a communist . He answered the same every time, no, never had been, never would be. When castro finally left new york on april 25, the police were relieved to see him go. One editorial in the New York Times, sums up the attitude when he left he made it quite clear that neither he nor anyone of importance in the government, so far that he knew, was a communist. By the same token, it seems the americans feel better about castro than they did before. That change very fast. Detailbook, i go into regarding what happened after castro returned to cuba after his american visit and how things went sour so quickly. For the sake of time, i will jump ahead of it. Suffice it to say castro immediately began behaving in a manner that seemed designed to promote the american government. He started appropriating american property in cuba, delivering speeches full of antiamerican rhetoric, cracking down on cubans, who made anticommunist statements, and most worrisome, began accepting overtures from the soviet union. Acting exactly like the protocommunist the Eisenhower Administration feared he was. But in months, washington decided good relations with castro would be impossible. A the end of 1959, less than year after castro came to power in cuba, the Eisenhower Administration took steps against them. The irony is after devoting aliens of dollars and hundreds of men to protecting him from assassins, the United States government began plotting his demise. Was theng these plots Central Intelligence agency, with encouragement from president eisenhower. Some earlier ideas explored by the cia were interesting. One was to place a drug in his food that would make him behave strangely in public and appear insane. Ask some already thought he was. The drug was not specified in documents, but it was probably lsd, which the cia had done work with in the 1950s. If that sounds like it was inspired by james bond, not because it may have been, director of the cia was a big james bond fan. At one point that march, as the cia was casting about for ideas, ian fleming was visiting washington. Ofhad dinner at the home jack and jaclyn kennedy, and somebody asked him, tongueincheek, if he had any ideas for offing fidel castro. He came up with this crazy plot where he would drop leaves over havana, advertising that radiation was in the air and it tended to cling to mens beards. The only way to get rid of it ld be the shape of beards would be to shave their beards, so they would shave them and supposedly lose their mystical power. Track down if fleming was still in washington, but he had already flown back to london. Another method the cia considered was assassination. One idea was to assassinate not just fidel but his brother and jake rivera che guevera. Another che guevera. On march 17, 19 six two, another assassination plan was developed. Usedirector of plans was to originally, the idea was to infiltrate these men onto the island in small groups. The ship was more like a world war ii style invasion. The plan was never that the 1400 men of the brigade were supposed to overrun cuba and somehow defeat castros army of 30,000. Rather, it was to land the brigade on cuban real estate and hold it for up to 10 days. At some point, the brigade would fall in a provisional government with the cia that they assembled in miami, kept in a safe house at the time, and then the government would set up shop, declare itself the rightful government of cuba, and what was supposed to happen after was never clear. Plans sputtered out after. One hope was that the cuban population would rise up and help overthrow castro. That theossibility was provisional government, after establishing itself in cuba, could invite the United States to assist much the way the rebels in libya invited the United States to assist recently, and then the United States would come in overtly or quasiillegally and settle the matter. Quasiillegally and settle the matter. They set up camps on the Coffee Plantation in guatemala and built an airstrip nearby. In late spring, they recruited cuban exiles mainly in miami and transported, assembled and trained them in guatemala. They came from an array of backgrounds, some former soldiers, others students, many moderates or leftists, and they supported castro when he first came to power, but then he became more and more acting like a communist. Lawyers,ere would be whites, blacks, young, old, rich and poor, a good crosssection of the cuban population. While the military population came together in guatemala, the president ial campaign of 1960 was heating up in america in a close contest between Richard Nixon and john f. Kennedy. From the outset, nixon realized fidel castro was either going to be an opportunity or problem. Depending on whether castro was still in power or gone by election day. 1960, john kennedy was beating the Eisenhower Administration over the head on fidel castro. No subject browsed the American Voters more than the specter of communist cuba. Every stopcock reminded voters that the island was a mere eight minutes away. He blamed eisenhower, and Vice President nixon for letting this happen. Imagine being in the shoes of Richard Nixon. He had a well earned reputation as a communist buster, one of the premier communist busters in america, and all encompass democrat from massachusetts suggesting that Richard Nixon was not anticommunist enough. It was galling. Kennedy somehow managed to outflank nixon with anticommunist talk. The best example occurred in one of the television debates. Not the first, the one that is most famous, but the fourth debate. This was most important in the campaign. It offered a glimpse to the wonderful strangeness that was Richard Nixon. Kennedy came out in the press previous day about a statement on cuba. In the statement, kennedy suggested the Eisenhower Administration was negligent about castro, and they ought to find some way to help anticastro cubans take up arms against castro. This is exactly what the Eisenhower Administration was trying to do. When nixon saw this in the newspapers, he was outraged. Somebody in the cia, he thought, misstep told kennedy about the cias plan. Must have told kennedy about the cias plan. Nixon had been pushing for this operation for months. Thatixon could not say because it was a covert operation, so he had to shut up and let kennedy pretend the was his. That is probably what he should have done, but that is not what nixon did. In the fourth debate, he lashed out at kennedys statement, denouncing it was irresponsible and foolish. He gave a long explanation on why a Covert Military operation against the castro regime was dangerously irresponsible, as he said in the debate. Some explained that this lie of hiswas painful, but it was uncomfortable and ironic duty. Then he added, from that point on, i had the wisdom and wariness of someone who had been burned by the kennedys. I thought i would never again enter into an election at a disadvantage diving vulnerable to them or anyone on the level of clinical tactics. It is a lesson he learned well. A lesson that led him to watergate. That is a story for another time. John kennedy became the 35th president of the United States. No sooner did he enter office on january 20, then he was handed the plan developed under the eyes and Higher Administration Eisenhower Administration. Knew something, but still, it came as a shock to discover how big operation was and that he had to deal with it immediately. The cia told him cubans were about to get a large arms shipment from the soviets, including fighter jets, which would make it more difficult to get rid of castro in the future. This was true, by the way. From day one, the pressure was on kennedy to decide what to do and to decide quickly. It is fair to say that john kennedy was not thrilled by the cias plan. His main concern was the involvement of the United States was not hidden enough, and if it were not, it could very well s new friend, the soviet union, to take retaliatory action, likely in berlin, a city kirchhoff enter into cut off from the west. Kennedy did not want to get into risky game of tit for tat for with thet for tat soviets because it could escalate toward. He needed to do something. If he canceled the plan, he would look like a hypocrite. Conventional wisdom has it that cia misled kennedy about the essentials of the operation, that they really tricked him into going ahead by misleading him, for example, about the chances of the cuban population rising up against castro. I dont think the c. I. A. Was totally up front. In fact, richard later admitted that they sold too hard, but i dont believe kennedy was fooled either. I think he knew more or less what he was getting into and he got into it anyway because he didnt know how not to get it into. He painted himself into a corner during the campaign. By the way, most americans were in that same corner with him. Everybody wanted castro gone. The operation moved forward almost inexorably through february and march and finally in early april after weeks of hemming and hawing, president kennedy gave it the thumbs up. He still held out the possibility of cancelling did but he never did and for reasons that ive mentioned i dont think there was ever a good chance that he would have. And so, back to where we began. April 15, in the opening attack on the cuban air fields. The attack that was meant to destroy Fidel Castros air force. I cover the invasion and aftermath in great detail in the book but its hard to do it justice in a few minutes. So im afraid youll have to read the book if you want to find the full story. But for the moment ill just say the important thing about those air attacks on april 15 is that they did not completely take out castros air force. They left about half a dozen intact. Half a dozen of his planes. That was half a dozen too many. The following evening, april 16, president kennedy canceled the second round of air strikes that were scheduled for the morning of april 17. These strikes were meant to complete the job of destroying castros air force. Why kennedy canceled them is a mystery. He had become the most common explanation is that he had become very concerned about the public and International Reaction that had been stirred up by the first round of air strikes. Among other things, it had become clear to the whole world that the whole world realized that the United States was behind the air attacks almost the moment those first bombs fell on the 15th. And kennedy was always very concerned about provoking something big, about lighting a match that would lead to a Great Nuclear conflagration. So with the advice of his secretary of state dean rust he called off the air strikes. Now, among the c. I. A. Planners, when they discovered this on the evening of april 16, they were horrified. It had always been understood for the invasion to have a chance castros air force had to be taken out. And the moment kennedy canceled those follow up strikes everybody involved in the operation instantly understood exactly what it meant. The brigade was doomed. This was confirmed the following morning before the brigade had even completed its landing. Castros planes showed up over the bay of pigs and very quickly sunk two supply ships. The four other brigade ships also under air attack fled for international waters. With those two sunken ships and away with those other ships, wept the brigades ammunition, much of its food and medical supplies, much of its communications equipment, and virtually any fighting chance the brigade had. This is not to suggest that if the second air strikes had not been canceled the invasion would ultimately achieved what the c. I. A. Or brigade wanted to achieve but there is no question that at the moment those air strikes were canceled it was over. Which is why to this day, many cuban exiles who fought at the bay of pigs hold a deep animosity for john kennedy. Even 50 years later. The brigade was essentially stranded there on the beaches running out of ammunition and under constant bombardment as castro he had about 30,000 to draw. From by the 18th the brigade was withering and on the 19th it came to an end. Castros troops swept in and they went to the swamp but not before up with last tragedy. The final morning, april 19, four american pilots from the Alabama Air National guard, who had been brought in to help train the brigade pilots, flew from the brigade air base in nicaragua to cuba. They did this because the brigade pilots had been flying virtually nonstop and had suffered numerous casualties and these americans volunteered to fly in their place. But that morning, their planes were shot down over cuba and all four were killed, including a 30yearold pilot named thomas pete ray. Thomas rays daughter, janet ray is here with us tonight and was a big help to me when i was writing this book, as were veterans of the brigade when i visited them two years ago, over the 48th anniversary of the bay of pigs invasion, so im grateful for your help and for their help, and im grateful to all of you for coming in and listening to me tonight. What i want to do now is give you a chance to ask any questions that you might have or make any brief comments. Weve got cspan here with us so please wait for the microphone to come over before you speak, and please, because there are so many of us here tonight, try to keep it brief so that everybody gets a chance who wants to say something, will get a chance to do so, okay . Thank you very much. [applause] thank you. Im going to start with this gentleman right here. Go ahead. Your book is the first one of many, and ive read them all, that mentions the meeting of january 28, when allen his entire team for the first time. At the end i cant hear the question. At the end of the memo. The question will come in a moment. At the end of the memo prepared by bissell, it points out that the end of the operation would be for the u. S. To come in after the beachhead had been established. My question to you is, i know, because ive read it, that that wasnt the first plan. Were you able to find out anywhere else, were you able to find mention of that anywhere else after that . What specifically do you mean . The fact that the u. S. Was going to come in after the beachhead yeah, that was always part of the original plan. Again, the idea was never that these 1,400 men were going to take over cuba. Some people seem to think that, but that wasnt the plan. The plan was they would set up this beachhead and then they would call for help. And thats why, i havent mentioned this, but there was a fleet of american aircraft just over the horizon during the brigade. An Aircraft Carrier and seven destroyers. They were there to help out when called upon. One of those ships had 30,000 rifles to give to any cubans who would want to join in the invasion. There were tanks on those ships. There were trucks on those ships. They were set just waiting for the word go to bring this equipment in and help the brigade out. Yes. I have a question. The decision that john f. If kennedy made at the bay of pigs, do you think that resulted in his assassination or played a part, that decision . I think probably Lee Harvey Oswalds mind, it did. There is a question whether fidel castro ordered it. Lyndon johnson said Something Like, castro knew that kennedy wanted to kill him so he wanted to kill kennedy. There was a lot of speculation that castro may have ordered this himself. Castro denies it. He visited mexico city short by turnover assassination and perhaps got some sort of signal or communication there. What we know for sure is that oswald, he was in the soviet union when the bay of pigs happened and was infuriated by it. He thought he was doing fidel castro a favor by going after john kennedy. Indirectly, yes, i do think the bay of pigs definitely leads to the assassination of kennedy. It may have had a more direct link but thats very difficult, maybe impossible to prove. Over here, please. Ill come to you in a second. Yes. Whats confusing to me is, if after the first day of the invasion, it became clear that the u. S. Was behind it, and then if it was known after secondary air strikes on the 17th the invasion was doomed, are you basically saying that because kennedy was afraid of lighting the match against the soviet union, that he was willing to sacrifice the 1,400 men for the good of the bigger picture, because how do you for how you portray this, whether were in favor or not in favor of war or in favor or not in favor of getting rid of castro, by putting the plan in place, were already committed and anything short of that although you said there was no guarantee it would work anything short of that would be a disaster so its hard to imagine that 1,400 men would be sacrificed for whatever bigger picture. Jim rasenberger im sure john kennedy never thought in those chilling terms. Im sure he never thought, well, ill just sacrifice these 1,400 lives. I think what he wanted was to have his cake and eat it, too. He wanted an immaculate invasion. He wanted to invade cuba, get castro out but he didnt want to start anything with the soviet union. Did he sit there on the evening of the 16th saying to himself, too bad for those guys, you know, im cancelling the follow up air strikes, i dont think so. But i think the conflict within himself that he had from the very beginning came to haunt this operation that evening. In many ways it had been set up long in advance because he was always conflicted about it. But thats what he did. He did essentially the c. I. A. Knew thats what he had done. He had basically set them up to fail. But i guess i have never seen anything that makes me think he was cold hearted enough to do it intentionally and we do know he did really feel very, truly depressed about it afterwards. He went into a deep depression, and im sure it was because he knew he had done something pretty terrible. I think he did it in his own mind for the right reasons but clearly he knew that he set these guys up to fail. Ill come to this side of the room, please. Im told that there were American Warships there ready to assist in the invasion. There were tanks coming off ships. There were sophisticated weaponry that was taken into cuba and a largescale invasion. How could anybody talk to an intelligent person like the president of the United States into saying he could deny we were behind it. [laughter] even if we had won the war, the invasion, how could anybody talk him into that . Jim rasenberger this gets into the oddness of plausible denial in the cold war. The idea of plausible denial was not total denial. It was that you could hide behind this culvert front and it lowered the heat. It lowered the stakes. For example, the u2, the famous spy plane, we were flying over the soviet union. The soviet union knew we were flying over the soviet union and we knew they knew but no one said anything because no one wanted to admit weakness. So to go back to your question, i dont think anyone thought, oh, well be able to completely deny this but the hope was, we can plausibly deny it. We can say, we were there to help out if they asked us to help them. We were there as a friend. But were in no way behind it. We werent the ones instigating it or funding it so they could deny key parts of it, and, while accepting other parts of it. Does that answer the question . This gentleman here. And then ill come to you. Aside from the lack of air power and air cover, did you find any information regarding infiltration of the brigade by castro Intelligence Officers that already gave up the plan even before they even landed . I did not. But its not, thats not because its not out there. I think its commonly assumed that he did know. Its hard to believe he had spies in miami so certainly he knew what was going on among the cuban exiles in miami. He probably had spies in guatemala. And, by the way, he just had to pick up the newspaper if he wanted to know what was going on because there were newspaper reports about the Training Camps in guatemala. On january 10, the New York Times ran a story which said that there were these Training Camps in guatemala. The New York Times reporter was kind of fooled and thought that these soldiers were guatemala from guatemala, but castro knew something was coming and john kennedy admitted in a press conference on april 12 right before the invasion, said that should there be an invasion of cuba there would be no american involvement in it. For castro, that said it all. Clearly these guys are coming any second. Now, there is also, you may know, a story that somebody leaked to soviet intelligence the fact, the actual invasion date. Thats probably true. There seems to be a lot of evidence for that. I dont know if it made much of a difference because castro knew anyway. He had been on high alert all winter, all spring. He was ready. He didnt sleep. He stayed up all night Smoking Cigars night after night waiting for this to happen and when it did happen, he sprang to action. The only thing he didnt know is where it would happen and when he found out he was ready to go. This young woman here. Im the godmother of allen dulless great grandson, and my husband is cuban. When i found out that my friends last name was actually dulles and he knew my husband was cuban, she asked me can we still be friends. So what im asking you is, how liable is allen dulles for all of this . Well, dulles, i dont think that cubans, cuban exiles would be upset with dulles. Duffles was on their side. He very much wanted this to go through. He also very much wanted president kennedy to rescue them when it was clear that they were failing. Dulles, for odd reasons, was not actually in the country when the invasion occurred. He was in puerto rico but Richard Bissell made a number of attempts to get john kennedy to approve air cover. Now, to go back to the point that was made earlier, there was an enormous amount of american firepower just offshore including an Aircraft Carrier with 84 fighter jets. So they all kept saying, let us have these for a little bit of time. Others were saying this as well, to give a little bit of air cover. You have to remember the brigade is there pinned down begging for help. If you read the intercepts coming in from the beaches, they are just heartwrenching. Please help us. Please come. Were dying here. Rescue us. Just send in one plane. Send in some planes please. Kennedy never did. And, but the c. I. A. Pushed for it. Some people think they just didnt push hard enough but certainly dulles wanted that, so i think certainly you and this woman could be friends. [laughter] here, please. I just saw the series on television, the kennedy series, and one of the segments they covered in detail was the invasion. Two parts. My first part is, how accurate, if you saw that series, how accurate one of the things they brought out in the series, and again, i dont know if its true, but they said it was, it would shock me, i lived through that invasion, and one of the things they said that, they acknowledged that one of the mistakes they made was that there was a full moon on the night of the invasion. And i remember oh. That made no sense. How could they have done that. [inaudible] they made a big point of that. Jim rasenberger yeah, on the morning of the 15th, the cuban ambassador to the United Nations also made the point that there were sun spots that day and somehow the c. I. A. Was so diabolical they had arranged the invasion to occur while there were sun spots to screw up the radio equipment. I dont know that much about the meteorology, but it was intentionally done on a moonless night. Anybody else . Standing back here in the yellow shirt. Does your book go into how kennedy changed the invasion plan from trendy dad to the bay of pigs . Yes. Because that was pivotal. That was pivotal. As far as leaks, they rounded up 150,000 people right before the invasion. Jim rasenberger right. Who was supposed to take part in all kinds of antigovernment activities, they filled stadiums in havana and throughout cuba, and that would have been pivotal but that was leaked to the castro government. Did you cover that also . Jim rasenberger i certainly cover the fact that these people were rounded up, and it goes to the problem of hoping for a populace uprising against castro in cuba because anybody against castro is either in jail or in miami. And there werent many people left who were free in cuba, who were against castro. We had Seven Members of our family go to the bay of pigs. She was five and i was 5 1 2. Otherwise, we would have gone, too. Jim rasenberger yes. I have seen a list that the brigade was over 3,000 men. But only 1,200 to 1,400, i understand, landed. My uncle was part of the team that was supposed to go in ahead of the invasion to help the resistance and prepare, and he never landed. They found out about the invasion later. Jim rasenberger there were many other units. There were false invasions. There were infiltrations. There were a number of things going on at the same time. The actual brigade that landed was about 1,400, but yes, there were hundreds of others who were involved in operations against cuba at the time. Ive heard the day before the attack were painted in cuban colors [inaudible] Jim Rasenberger thats true. The whole plan was to try to make those air attacks look as if they had been carried out by castros own pilots. So part of that plan was to have if youve got eight b26 bombers, flying through air fields, you also had a b26 flown by a pilot who flew directly from nicaragua to miami, landed in a b26 and claimed that he was part of the conspiracy of cuban pilots, who, that morning, had bombed their own air fields and now was coming to the United States. That fell apart very quickly, though, for a number of reasons. For one thing, his b26 was different than the b26s in castros air force and some enterprising journalists figured that out rather quickly. For example, he had his machine guns in the nosecone. Castros machine guns were mounted under the wings. That was part of how this whole, why john kennedy ended up cancelling the air strikes on the 16th, because once people realized that this was not true, a charade, they realized, wait a minute, something is not right about this. And they started looking at the americans for answers as to what was going on. In your opening remarks you referred to the fact that kennedy was concerned about provoking russia by his actions in the bay of pigs, and the invasion. Do you go into that in the book, and what subsequently happened, because, you know, four or five months later the berlin wall went up and im sure that was triggered by his weakness in the bay of pigs. Eight months later vietnam exploded. Jim rasenberger that was all in consequence when they detected that he was, what they interpreted to be weak, that triggered a lot of problems. Jim rasenberger and john kennedy knew that. He went to a summit in vienna in june with khrushchev and khrushchev just ate his lunch. And kennedy afterwards said, he thinks im stupid and weak because of what happened at the bay of pigs. And certainly you can make a connection, then, to khrushchev making this move to put up the berlin wall. Although in some ways the berlin wall diffused the situation in berlin but thats a rather complicated story. But certainly but it triggered the wall being built . Jim rasenberger it did trigger it. And the same thing happened in asia. Jim rasenberger thats true. It was certainly kennedy certainly was very wear of that when he went to the summit with khrushchev. The repercussions of the bay of pigs just kept going. All through, they really didnt end for kennedy until the cuban missile crisis, but, you know, a lot of things, vietnam war, in many ways, started on april 20, the day after the bay of pigs. John kennedy needing a victory against the communists, ordered a task force in the pentagon to look for a way to stop communism in south vietnam, and very quickly after that, sent more men, 400 more men to vietnam. Really, the first step into the following vietnam really began on the beaches of cuba. In my mind, there must have been some sort of call that caused conditioned to back away from the second air strike. Are you aware or is there any documentation of any conversations between john f. If keep and khrushchev immediately after that first air strike . Jim rasenberger no. That may have caused john kennedy to back out . Jim rasenberger no. The conversations were with dean rusk, mainly his secretary of state who advised him to stop. Khrushchev did on the 18th send a very threatening letter to john kennedy, really, saying, if you value the lives of your people you better back off. You know, in the cold war, stakes were always so high, and i think thats why we have to have some sympathy for these president s who served when, they were always a few decisions away from nuclear war, at least they thought they were. Khrushchev said if you i cant quote the letter, its in the book, but you better get out of cuba or were going egg to come after you. So there were several communications after that and kennedy never responded to that. Yes . During your research, did you come across any documentation that, after the election, the Republican Administration either wanted to back off or wanted to accelerate it . There was a c. I. A. History done in the 1970s, and he remarked that eisenhower for some reason really seemed to start pushing again after the election, just before kennedy took over, and it may be because eisenhower before that was afraid of doing something to muck up nixons chances. It may be that he was just trying to hand kennedy a tough problem. I doubt it, but he did really try i think what they wanted to do was hand off something that was ready to go. Now, eisenhower did later say that he never meant this to be a plan. He called it a program. In other words, it was an asset. I wasnt something that had to be done, so, he later denied that he really had much responsibility for it although remember, for a year this plan lived under eisenhower and it only lived under kennedy for three months. We can take a few more questions. Somebody thats not asked one yet. Go ahead, please. Can you elaborate on the four Alabama National guards, whats the history behind that . I dont think it was made clear that they had gotten shot down for several years and whats the status of those gentlemen now. Jim rasenberger well, this one here knows more about that than i do. Her father was one of them. They had been brought in to train the c. I. A. Pilots. They werent meant to fly. There with you always a backup plan that maybe they would be used to fly but that wasnt really their main function, and it is true that when they were killed, the Kennedy Administration and then the c. I. A. Denied that this happened. They came up with a cover story for how they died. And its really one of the most shameful parts of the whole thing, because these men died trying to serve their country, trying to do the right thing, and then their families were lied to about how they died. Through the efforts of janet ray, mainly, and other people, thats the truth came out and we now know what the truth is that these four machine died in battle fighting for their country. Let me take one more question, does anybody, you had one, do you want to ask . You said president kennedy felt guilty for not ordering the second air strike, but he made it clear that he was upset with the c. I. A. Over the failure of the bay of pigs because he fired many of the heads of the c. I. A. Afterwards. Jim rasenberger thats right. He fired allen dulles, he fired bissell and cabel, who was second in command. He fired the whole top. He was upset with the c. I. A. He thought the c. I. A. Had misled him. Probably, you have to understand that was scapegoating, and i dont mean that as being highly critical. Even before the invasion, author schlesinger wrote a memo, if something bad should happen somebodys neck has to go on the chopping block and it cant be the president s. And so it was the c. I. A. s, and the c. I. A. Thats partly the job of the c. I. A. , you know. They have to take the heat when things like this happen, and they, you know, it was their baby and bissell, it was the end of his career certainly. He went in and worked at a corporation in connecticut for the rest of his life. And it changed the lives of many people in the c. I. A. , whose careers were basically, not just the top three guys but ended with that. Kennedy wanted to shatter the c. I. A. Into a thousand pieces. He didnt do that, but he was certainly upset. Can we have time for one more . Lets do one more question here and then well does the book explore the issue of why allen dulles was in puerto rico, left to run probably one of the highest profile operations the c. I. A. Had planned in many, many years, to joe bissell, who was richard bus bissell, an underling of his . Jim rasenberger it was an invitation that had been proffered many months before, i found the invitation, from the young president S Association of america. Basically this was a retreat for Young American executives and they invited dulles to come talk to them, and dulles went because it was thought if he didnt go it would be a tipoff to castro, and if he did go to puerto rico, it would be one more indication that the United States had nothing to do with this. Now, in moscow, the newspapers immediately, as early as the 18th, said dulles was in puerto rico so he could run the operation from puerto rico. Thats not true but dulles did give his speech at the same time that chips were exploding in the bay of pigs. That same morning he was chatting to this group of young executives, and it is rather bizarre but it was thought to be the right thing to do. He really didnt know about what was happening until he came back that evening, and learned at the airport how badly things were going. And then he told his aide lets go get a stiff drink, and thats how he handled that. I think we need to cut it off here. Ill take can we do any more questions . Jim rasenberger all right. I dont understand, if everybody in the world knew this was this was going to happen, did the c. I. A. Not have anybody infiltrated in the organization, if everybody knew, then how did dulles not know that everyone knew . Jim rasenberger yes. It is, it goes back to the weird psychology of the cold war. Everyone knew, but again, it wasnt that they thought they were going to get away and nobody would ever suspect the United States. Its just that they wanted enough denyability to hide behind that so that khrushchev want put into a position where he had to escalate. You understand . If it was too obvious that the United States was behind this, khrushchev would have no choice for his own political reasons, but to escalate things in west berlin and then john kennedy would have no choice for his political reasons to escalate somewhere else. So thats how this work. It worked on so many different levels. If there is one thing i learned writing this book, is that, you dont want to be a president certainly during the cold war. You were faced minute by minute with these life or death decisions and they are incredibly difficult. You know, ill end by saying the point that i sort the moral for me is that, when people write about the bay of digs or talk about the bay of pigs there is often so much anger involved. There has been over history and a lot of blame goes around. My impression is that most of the people involved in this on all ends were doing it for what they thought were the right reasons. They were basically good people trying to do the right thing for the country. The problem was, it was a very difficult thing to do and the way they did it was not the right way, and, now, you know, what the answer should have been still isnt clear to me. Should john kennedy have put in the u. S. Entirely . What if marines had gone into cuba in april 1961 . Its hard to know how that game would have played out. What we do know is what happened and what happened was a tragedy. Thank you all very much for coming tonight. I really appreciate it. [applause] thank you. [captions Copyright National cable Satellite Corp 2019] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] to join the conversation, like us on facebook. University of chicago teaches a class about the 1968 president ial election, politics, and protest of the vietnam war during Richard Nixons first term. She covers the unrest in chicago during the Democratic National convention, gives background on each of the candidates, and outlines the lead up to the watergate breakin. Her class is about 50 minutes. Prof. Dailey we will start with the 1968 Democratic National convention. We will talk about the 1968 president ial election. Lets start with chicago. This last summer was the 50th anniversary of the Democratic National convention in chicago. I dont know if any of you saw, there was a couple of specials. We have some of footage that is pretty shocking for people to see nowadays. Before 1972, most of the delegates to both conventions