Changed in interpretation. The Gettysburg CollegeCivil War Institute provided the video for this event. Toso, beth i would like start by getting a feel for what led you to Civil War History and the career path you have taken. Beth that is a good question. Most people when you ask them that question who are in this field have these glowing nostalgic memories of being taken to the battlefield as children and that is not my story. My family visited some Historic Sites but not really, not that many. For us, or for me, it was when i got to high school and was considering a lot of careers in science and engineering, but realized what i really loved was history. I just happened to i was boarding class one day because i bored my book i was in class one day because i forgot my book. I picked book off the shelf. The teacher also taught a civil war class. The people i read about were fascinating. That is what fascinated me, these people who were dealing with the most cataclysmic moments of their lives and in some ways, the nations life, trying to figure out how to navigate the situation and they were just far enough away to be strange and just close enough to be very smelly or very familiar at the same time. Peter so you get to chancellorsville, fredericksburg temporary historian, now is a permanent historian. Can you tell us what you did they are, not in terms of accomplishments, but what does it mean to be a park interpreter in interpreter historian . Than its more paperwork people expect, but we are the federal government. Involves managing volunteers, getting to work alongside very passionate volunteers every day, help visitors figure out where they want to go and how they want to spend their day, daily programs, especially special programs, because that allows us to do more research and dig into stories. Untilat spotsylvania 2019, which means i was therefore their 150th anniversary commemoration. Also the National Park service centennial. I led up to a seven hour battlefield hike in spotsylvania. It is everything from short 35 minute programs every day with the visitors to all day hikes. Peter so your favorite tour and why . Beth favorite tour of all time . Peter im not talking about a specific time or date. You have got for battlefields at fredericksburg and spotsylvania. You have the jackson shrine, which has been renamed. Beth the jackson death site. You are asking me to choose between my favorite children. Peter you have to. Beth my favorite topic wise, spotsylvania. Of the normal tours, my favorite is fredericksburg. Group,ally have a larger so you have more discussion. The story of fredericksburg is one that i think for most visitors is one of cynicism, cynicism that the war effort was angled from the beginning, that these men died in vain bungled from the beginning, that these men died in vain. The battlefield is almost entirely gone to development. It doesnt really look like a battlefield. The story itself is not one that is lifeaffirming. How do you deal with that, visitors who walk away from isdericksburg and say this further evidence of a northern war effort that was horribly misguided and resulted in the slaughter of men . Beth that is a lot to come up against, pete. Nott of our visitors were that knowledgeable about fredericksburg. Thinkid not come in and on that nuanced of a level, but a tropethem did no from an interpreter, but usually you break down those barriers. It all started with sideburns as many things do. That little find everyonevel ground immediately, there is that one person in the crowd who is too shy to say anything, kind of rubbing their face and you say that is right, he is best known for his sideburns that probably doesnt mean he was a very good general, does it . Can going into what here is what he is thinking at fredericksburg, here are the pressures he is facing from command. Once you bring in these other factors, people start to see it from burnsides point of view. Once you level things out, people get into more of a learning zone. Is askingsion for me a lot of questions that they could dig into as well, giving people enough information and then saying what do you think . The questions i asked in my program was complete union disaster, battle is over, burnsides next campaign attempt fails. Should Abraham Lincoln sign the emancipation proclamation . Remember there is a larger war going on here. It is not just the slaughter at fredericksburg or what is to come at chancellorsville. There is more to talk about. That gets people to think in broader terms. They cannot just walk away dismissive of the battle or dismissive of burnside because war continues, even if it seems like just a complete disaster. There are pieces to be drawn from this. Monument, beautiful would you tell the story about kirkland and your take on that story and how you handled that monument, which for those of you who have not been to fredericksburg, is right on the stonewall, and right below the stonewall is the open ground that led up to the ridge the Union Soldiers attacked over. Beth kirkland is a fascinating story. As the story comes to us, the short version being that in the aftermath of the battle of fredericksburg there are untold union wounded left out on the plane in front of the town. Behind the stonewall you have Sergeant Richard kirkland, who is listening to the cries of the wounded and he goes to ask his Commanding Officer if he can take water, other things out to the wounded. He finally gets permission to go across. To take a white flag. He gathers up a bunch of canteens and starts giving water to the wounded soldiers. There is now a monument to kirkland. It is beautiful. A very remarkable monument, statue, but there are some challenges. Kirkland died. We cannot ask him if that happens. His story resurfaces any years later. Theres is not much corroborating evidence. There is a some. We can say with some certainty there was a confederate or more than one confederate who assisted Union Soldiers wounded out in the fields, but we are not for certain it was kirkland. It can be a little problematic. In thededicated centennial. An era of good feeling encouraging brotherhood between the two sides. We were all soldiers and it was ok in the end. On some days i was not feeling kirkland at all. Sometimes i finish there and say there are more important things to talk about. Howre going to talk about humanity can transcend the battlefield, but when you are talking about a battlefields where a person could walk from one end to the other without touching a blade of grass, humanity is in what you want to talk about. Isnt what you want to talk about. It is up to you to decide what you want to believe. If you decide if you want to see kirkland as someone who is representative, it is not for me to tell you what to make of this monument, but i want to encourage people to think more deeply about that monument and all monuments. All monuments tell us a story about what people wanted to tell us, not necessarily the stories story people want today. As an interpreter at fredericksburg when i was in college, i gave many a walk along the sunken road. I incorporated that story without ever challenging the visitors to think critically about it. That monument of kirkland cradling a Wounded Union soldier and giving that soldier water is the kind of feelgood story, a bedtime story that americans want. You will hear it here first when i retire from this position, i am going back to fredericksburg, i will volunteer, if they let me. I have to make amends. I will point to that monument and i will yell bedtime story thats what people want and it is an absurdity want to see the civil war. There was zero joy i am reminded of gods and generals, movie full of all kinds of absurdities, but one of the most ridiculous moments is the confederate irish soldier should crying as he shot down members of the irish brigade. Beth there are some quotations that have confederates feeling badly or expressing they feel badly for shooting brave men, but i not believe it stop them, which i think is an important thing to note. There were others who were like we will kill every genki you put in front of me. Put in frontee you of me. Peter there was a south carolinian that stood up and said north carolinian that again sargonhem up shoot themo i can i think that has changed. John, you might have some questions about chancellors chancellorsville. Interpretations there have changed radically since my day. John you laid the groundwork. Peter i was one of yours beth i was one of your students, so i know how it goes. Peter i dont see a copy of my book behind you on your shelves. Beth it is over here. Peter buried beth it is top shelf. My top shelf is really a middle shelf, but it is literally top shelf. Peter good. You have made amends. You want to take it every hair, john . Take it over here john . John shout out to beth because i found out she is a beaker fan from the muppets. Absolutely transitionas your from interpretation going from chancellorsville to appomattox . How did that work for you personally . Beth very interesting. ,redericksburg and spotsylvania for anyone who does not know, has the battlefield for spans froma, it to 1864. 862 logically ontoty april of 1865. The armies were barely recognizable. It was a big shift to me to go through to go from the armies that i knew to these almost brandnew fighting forces. It was a big shift in terms of understanding the armies. A big shift as well from battlefield interpretation culture to a at appomattox we theerve and reconstruct village. Story ona military april 9, april 8. There is a different kind of story. Atre is a Different Air appomattox. People come to hear about the surrender more than they do to hear about the battle. There is a shift in terms of subject matter. Were just talking about the kirkland monument into this how of what how we have what we have perceived about the civil war in the past, and at appomattox i would think there would be this same kind of mythology hanging out in a different capacity. Is that true . Beth there is a lot of it and it is something that we are always coming up against. When you drive into appomattox thety, you read where nation was reunited. Not really one of the first history books i is what my dads grew up with. Fantastic. Except, if you read it, you will come away with a very different impression of appomattox than necessarily what we would want you to walk away with today. It is one that focuses very much on stability. Interestingly, it hyper focuses on what each general is wearing. On how thecus gentleman is reflected in his clothing versus the harsh rebel grant shows up in his mud spattered boots. It tells us that us something about the character of each of them. It is a story that generally ends april 9 with lees dramatic farewell address. All of these things that helped build the lost cause. They did not really look at april 9 as the beginning of the end and to the beginning of reconstruction, the beginning of the emancipation, the beginning of the surrenders of the major confederate armies. It is a turning point instead of the end. It also shows some shifting minds. At appomattox, citizens around the turnofthecentury in the early efforts to establish parks and memorials, the southern people here were quick to remind everybody that in fact we were so keen on remembering it that way, thank you very much. A lot of things were lost that day. Theays we think of it as nation is coming back together lets talk about one of those complications. You mentioned emancipation, which obviously did not begin with appomattox. It was an ongoing process. It is oftenect perceived by people that when lee and grant shook hands, that resolve the war in a tidy fashion. Scholars and public historians now see this as part of an ongoing story. Here we go there is a challenge here. There is a challenge at all these Historic Sites to bring in the africanamerican story. Terms ofroblem in sources, it is a problem in terms of the site, it is a problem in terms of visitors. No problems in this world, john, i forgot. Only challenges. It tell us what the challenges are about the interpretation of africanAmerican History at appomattox . Beth we should see it more as an opportunity to fix something we have not done very well in the past. I think it starts if you go very back to the founding of the park. Appomattox was founded during the 1960s. It is a segregated park like all parks in virginia were at that time. Problem,your first which is actually a problem. Straight out of the gate we have got a problem. Sources,he scarcity of which is in some ways everywhere, but one of the lovely things about being a community as opposed to a devastated battlefield where there are so many people who lived in the area and ran away and it is hard to track what they did, emancipation, which is a process, it did not begin in appomattox, but in appomattox, this area, the people did not have the chance to run to union lines. It grants arrival, lees surrender spark that movement arrival, lees surrender sparked that movement. Wta narratives, we have records to work with, so there are sources, just not sources we traditionally mine. If you want to know the movement of an individual unit, we have a record that can tell us a lot in detail. We are still working on knowing the exact number of displaced people who belong to to any given place holder in appomattox at any given time. That there is a lot that we do not know, but there is a lot we do know that we can build on. I think a lot of it is shifting that culture. Less focus on what the generals were wearing, little more on what does this matter and what are the opportunities and challenges of reconstruction . I will just say that the change in interpretive approach is truly revolutionary. I told you this was going to be ofut me in the summer a85, my very first job at park was to portray Corporal Bobby fields. We had to do first person interpretation for our audience. I had to pretend it was the summer of 19 1865. Inlds did provost to duty appomattox, so there is an abundance of records. Mark green now, who is the curator of the richmond, virginia Capital Museum did incredible research and made it available to us. I did notars old, have the historiography and i had to pretend it was 1865 and in the source material in which the Freedmens Bureau complained bitterly about free people, former slaves, africanamericans, complained bitterly that they would not work. Here is the problem of first person interpretation. This is a serious one. Public historians like myself did not know the historiography, did not know the context. Had to pretend it was 1865. Visitors would say we are struggling to get black people to work here. Historically, they did not want to work on the terms of their former landowners into those terms were coercive and of course terms that led to their impoverishment. These were africanamericans who were playing they wanted to play the freemarket game, but those of course who owned the capital into land did not want to play by those rules. It is too bad that when i was there that i did not have that. I had some really good people i worked with, but they were all very much centered thin that that 1960sthin interpretation. I have two students i can think of off the top of my head that have worked at appomattox. He both came back to Gettysburg College and told me about programs in which they both came back to Gettysburg College and it told me about programs in which stories about African Americans were right in the wheelhouse. For those people to say again quote please do not change to change, t beth among my staff this week we have been talking about telling these stories and telling different stories. I hope at least to some of your students were telling the story of John Robinson, who did a lot to embody the story of reconstruction. He lived within a village, the home he purchased. He founded the first africanamerican church in appomattox. He registered to vote right off the bat. Even though we have very little he said himself, we can still construct around that to say he registered to vote do you know what it took to register to vote . E sent his students to school the first africanamerican school was built up the road. Arean the park, within the we talked about. That school was threatened by klan. An by htethe ande are opportunities there are things that can go wrong if you take advantage of those opportunities. That it is ak powerful response for anyone who claims to appomattox and claims that the war was a great tragedy and it did not respond in any profound consequences or changes. Robinson got to vote. These are all things i am not trying to suggest that for africanamericans that their initiation into citizenship was complete. No one is suggesting that, but you pointed out that is something that is right on the ground. Beth absolutely. Is one of theat greater challenges to deal with . Eit that idea of how it nded . Is it that once in a while you have visitors who truly believe the way we thought a bit in the 1960s when lost because initiatives were in history books across the country . Are those the hardest challenges you face or is it Something Else as an interpreter . Things. Is a couple it is trying to get our visitors to stay longer and invest in the park. A lot of visitors if they come to appomattox, one of the beautiful things about being in the middle of nowhere is people come to appomattox because they mean to. It means something to them. A lot of our visitors part of what i love is they find a peaceful atmosphere and they find that reflects what they think happened trade part of it is complicating it. Some people do not think about robert ely backed into a corner before he had to robert e. Lee backed into a corner before he had to surrender. He is trapped. Story ofo expand the the surrender, so lets understand the terms. Lets understand what they mean, what their implications are for soldiers across the south end for the nation at large, how lee responds. Throughout those farewell orders that say those farewell orders that says a lot about what many come to believe. Lostys the seeds of the cause are already sown everywhere. We are often coming up against all of these preconceived notions about appomattox and what it means. Some of it is adding to the story, helping people understand this is in some ways the beginning, not the end. We are pivoting toward what this country will become after appomattox. Peter you said that so nicely. I know you werent at appomattox duri