Now, tonights program is unlike any other president ial debate in history were making history now and its pretty exciting. An independent polling firm has selected an audience of 209 uncommitted voters from this area. The candidates will be asked questions by these voters on a topic of their choosing anything they want to ask about. My job as moderator is to, you know, take care of the questioning, ask questions myself, if i think there needs to be continuity and balance, and sometimes i might ask the candidates to respond to what another candidate may have said. Now, the format has been agreed to by representatives of both the republican and democratic campaigns. And there is no subject matter that is restricted anything goes, we can ask anything. After the debate, the candidates will have an opportunity to make a closing statement. So, president bush, i think you said it earlier, lets get it on. Pres. Bush lets go. Ms. Simpson and i think the first question is over here. Yes, id like to direct my question to mr. Perot. What will you do as president to open foreign markets to fair competition from american business, and to stop unfair competition here at home from Foreign Countries so that we can bring jobs back to the United States . Mr. Perot thats right at the top of my agenda. Weve shipped millions of jobs overseas and we have a strange situation because we have a process in washington where after youve served for a while, you cash in and become a foreign lobbyist, make 30,000 a month, then take a leave, work on president ial campaigns, make sure you got good contacts, and then go back out. Now if you just want to get down to brass tacks, the first thing you ought to do is get all these folks whove got these oneway trade agreements that weve negotiated over the years and say, fellows, well take the same deal we gave you. And theyll gridlock right at that point because, for example, weve got International Competitors who simply could not unload their cars off the ships if they had to comply you see, if it was a twoway street just couldnt do it. We have got to stop sending jobs overseas. To those of you in the audience who are business people, Pretty Simple if youre paying 12, 13, 14 an hour for factory workers and you can move your factory south of the border, pay a dollar an hour for labor, hire young lets assume youve been in business for a long time and youve got a mature work force pay a dollar an hour for your labor, have no health care thats the most expensive single element in making a car have no environmental controls, no pollution controls, and no retirement, and you dont care about anything but making money, there will be a giant sucking sound going south. So we if the people send me to washington, the first thing ill do is study that 2,000page agreement and make sure its a twoway street. One last part here i decided i was dumb and didnt understand it, so i called the whos who of the folks whove been around it and i said, why wont everybody go south . They say, itd be disruptive. I said, for how long . I finally got them up from 12 to 15 years. And i said, well, how does it stop being disruptive . And that is when their jobs come up from a dollar an hour to six dollars an hour, and ours go down to six dollars an hour, and then its leveled again. But in the meantime, youve wrecked the country with these kinds of deals. Weve got to cut it out. Ms. Simpson thank you, mr. Perot. I see that the president has stood up, so he must have something to say about this. Pres. Bush well, carole, the thing that saved us in this Global Economic slowdown is in our exports. And what im trying to do is increase our exports. And if, indeed, all the jobs were going to move south because of lower wages, there are lower wages now and they havent done that. And so i have just negotiated with the president of mexico the north American Free trade agreement, and the Prime Minister of canada, i might add, and im i want to have more of these free trade agreements. Because export jobs are increasing far faster than any jobs that may have moved overseas. Thats a scare tactic because its not that many. But anyone thats here, we want to have more jobs here and the way to do that is to increase our exports. Some believe in protection. I dont. I believe in free and fair trade and thats the thing that saved us, and so i will keep on as president trying to get a successful conclusion to the gatt round, the big uruguay round of trade which will really open up markets for our for our agriculture particularly i want to continue to work after we get this nafta agreement this coming year. I want to get one with eastern europe. I want to get one with chile and free and fair trade is the answer, not protection. And as i say, weve had tough Economic Times and its exports that have saved us. Exports that have built. Ms. Simpson governor clinton . Gov. Clinton id like to answer the question because ive actually been a governor for 12 years so ive known a lot of people whove lost their jobs because of jobs moving overseas and i know a lot of people whose plants have been strengthened by increasing exports. The trick is to expand our export base and to expand trade on terms that are fair to us. It is true that our exports to mexico, for example, have gone up and our trade deficits gone down. Its also true that just today, a recordhigh trade deficit was announced with japan. So what is the answer . Let me just mention three things very quickly. Number one, make sure that other countries are as open to our markets as our markets are to them and if theyre not, have measures on the books that dont take forever and a day to implement. Number two, change the tax code. There are more deductions in the tax code for shutting plants down and moving overseas than there are for modernizing plant and equipment here. Our competitors dont do that. Emphasize and subsidize modernizing plant and equipment here, not moving plants overseas. Number three, stop the federal Governments Program that now gives lowinterest loans and job training funds to companies that will actually shut down and move to other countries but we wont do the same thing for plants that stay here. So more trade, but on fairer terms and favor investment in america. Ms. Simpson thank you. I think we have a question over here. This is for governor clinton. In the real world, that is outside of washington, d. C. , compensation and achievement are based on goals defined and achieved. The deficit is my my question is about the deficit. Would you define in specific dollar goals how much you would reduce the deficit in each of the four years of a Clinton Administration and then enter into a legally binding contract with the American People that if you did not achieve those goals, that you would not seek a second term . Answer yes or no and then comment on your answer, please. Gov. Clinton no, and heres why. And ill tell you exactly why. Because the deficit now has been building up for 12 years. Ill tell you exactly what i think can be done. I think we can bring it down by 50 in four years and grow the economy. Now, i could get rid of it in four years in theory on the books now, but to do it, youd have to raise taxes too much and cut benefits too much to people who need them. And it would even make the economy worse. Mr. Perot will tell you, for example, that the expert he hired to analyze his plan said that it will bring the deficit down in five years, but it will make unemployment bad for four more years. So my view is, sir, you have to increase investment, grow the economy, and reduce the deficit by Controlling Health care costs, prudent reductions in defense, cuts in domestic programs, and asking the wealthiest americans and Foreign Corporations to pay their fair share of taxes and investing in growing this economy. I asked everybody to look at my economic ideas and nine nobel Prize Winners and over 500 economists and hundreds of business people, including a lot of republicans, said this is the way you got to go. If you dont grow the economy , you cant get it done. But i cant foresee all the things that will happen and i dont think a president should be judged solely on the deficit. Let me also say, were having an election today. Youll have a shot at me in four years and you can vote me right out if you think ive done a lousy job. And i would welcome you to do that. Ms. Simpson mr. President . Pres. Bush well, i, i got to im a little confused here because i dont see how you can grow the deficit down by raising peoples taxes. You see, i dont think the American People are taxed too little. I think theyre taxed too much. I went for one tax increase. And when i make a mistake, i admit it. Said that wasnt the right thing to do. Governor clintons program wants to tax more and spend more. 150 billion in new taxes. Spend another 220. I dont believe thats the way to do it. Heres some things thatll help. Give us a balanced Budget Amendment. He always talks about arkansas having a balanced budget and they do. But he has a balanced Budget Amendment have to do it. Id like the government to have that. And i think it would discipline not only the congress, which needs it, but also the executive branch. Id like to have what 43 governors have the line item veto, so if the congress cant cut, weve got a reckless spending congress, let the president have a shot at it by wiping out things that are pork barrel or something of that nature. Id like to i proposed another one. Some sophisticates think it may be a little gimmicky. I think its good. Its a checkoff. It says to you as a taxpayer say youre going to pay a tax of a thousand bucks or something. You can check 10 of that, if you want to, in one box and that 10 , 100 or if youre paying 10,000, or whatever it is, a thousand dollars check it off and make the government make it lower the deficit by that amount. And if the Congress Wont do it if they cant get together and negotiate how to do that then youd have a sequester across the board. Youd exempt Social Security i dont want to tax or touch Social Security. Im the president that said hey, dont mess with Social Security. And we havent. So i believe we need to control the growth of mandatory spending back to this gentlemans question. Thats the main growing thing in the budget. The whole the program that the president twothirds of the budget, i, as president , never get to look at, never get to touch. Weve got to control that growth to inflation and population increase. But not raise taxes on the American People now. I just dont believe that would stimulate any kind of growth at all. Ms. Simpson how about you, mr. Perot . Mr. Perot well, were 4 trillion in debt. Were going into debt an additional 1 billion a little more than a billion dollars every working day of the year. Now the thing i love about it im just a businessman. I was down in texas taking care of business, tending to my family. This situation got so bad that i decided id better get into it. The American People asked me to get into it. But i just find it fascinating that while we sit here tonight, we will go into debt an additional 50 billion 50 Million Dollars in an hour and a half. Now, its not the republicans fault, of course. And its not the democrats fault. And what im looking for is who did it . Now, theyre the two folks involved, so maybe if you put them together, they did it. Now, the facts are we have to fix it. We are leaving im here tonight for these young people up there in the balcony from this college. When i was a young man, when i got out of the navy, i had multiple job offers. Young people with high grades cant get a job. People the 18 to 24yearold High School Graduates 10 years ago were making more than they are now. In other words, we were down to 18 of them were making ah, of the 18 to 24yearolds were making less than 12,000. Now thats up to 40 . And whats happened in the meantime, the dollars gone through the floor. Now whose fault is that . Not the democrats, not the republicans. Somewhere out there, theres an extraterrestrial thats doing this to us, i guess. And everybody says they take responsibility. Somebody somewhere has to take responsibility for this. Put it to you bluntly, American People. If you want me to be your president , were going to face our problems, well deal with the problems, well solve our problems. Well pay down our debt. Well pass on the American Dream to our children, and i will not leave our children a situation that they have today. When i was a boy, it took two generations to double the standard of living. Today, it will take 12 generations. Our children will not see the American Dream because of this debt that somebody somewhere dropped on us. Ms. Simpson youre all wonderful speakers and i know you have lots more to add, but ive talked to this audience and they have lots of questions on other topics. Can we move to another topic, please . We have one up here, i think. Yes, id like to address all the candidates with this question. The amount of time the candidates have spent on this campaign trashing their opponents character and their programs is depressingly large. Why cant your discussions and proposals reflect the genuine complexity and the difficulty of the issues to try to build a consensus around the best aspects of all proposals . Ms. Simpson who wants to take that one . [laughter] ms. Simpson mr. Perot, you have an answer for everything, dont you . Go right ahead, sir. Mr. Perot no, no i dont have an answer for everything. Why . As you all know, ive been buying 30 minutes segments to talk about issues. And tomorrow night, on nbc, from 10 30 to 11 00, eastern were going to talk about how you pay the debt down, so were going to come right down to that one. See, well be on again saturday night, 8 00 to 9 00 on abc, so [laughter] ms. Simpson ok, ok. [laughter] mr. Perot i couldnt agree with you more. Couldnt agree with you more. And i have said again and again and again, lets get off of this, lets get off personalities and lets talk about jobs, health care, crime, the things that concern the American People. Im spending my money, not pac money, not foreign money, my money, to take this message to the people. Ms. Simpson thank you, mr. Perot. So that seems directed, he would say its you gentlemen who have been doing that. Mr. Clinton, governor clinton, how do you or president bush, how would you like to respond . Pres. Bush well, in the first place, i believe that character is a part of being president. I think you have to look at it. I think that has to be a part of of a candidate for president , or being president. In terms of programs, ive submitted, what, four different budgets to the United States congress . In great detail, theyre so heavy, theyd give you, you know, a broken back. And everything in there says what i am for. Now ive come out with a new agenda for americas renewal, a plan that i believe really will help stimulate the growth of this economy. My record on World Affairs is pretty well known because ive been president for four years. So i feel ive been talking issues. You know, nobody likes likes who shot john . But i think the first negative campaign run in this election was by governor clinton. And im not going to sit there and be a punching bag. Im going to stand up and say, hey, listen, heres my side of it. But character is an important part of the equation. The other night, governor clinton raised i dont know if you saw the debate the other night . Suffered through that . [laughter] pres. Bush well, he raised the question of my father. It was a good line, well rehearsed and well delivered. But he raised the question of my father and said, well, your father, prescott bush, was against mccarthy. You should be ashamed of yourself. Mccarthyism. I remember something my dad told me. I was 18 years old, going to penn station to go into the navy and he said, write your mother which i faithfully did he said, serve your country my father was an honor, duty, and country man and he said, tell the truth. And ive tried to do that in public life, all through it. And that says something about character. My argument with governor clinton you can call it mud wrestling, but i think its fair to put it in focus is i am deeply troubled by someone who demonstrates and organizes demonstration in a foreign land when his countrys at war. Probably a lot of kids here disagree with me, but thats what i feel. Thats what i feel passionately about. Im thinking of ross perots running mate sitting in the jail. How would he feel about it . But maybe thats generational, i dont know. But the big argument i have with the governor on this is this taking different positions on different issues, trying to be one thing to one person here thats opposing the nafta agreement and then for it what we call waffling. And i do think that you cant turn the white house into the waffle house, youve got to say what youre for and youve got to ms. Simpson mr. President , im getting time cues and, with all due respect, im sorry. President bush excuse me, i dont want to i dont want to, no go ahead carole. I get wound up. Ms. Simpson yes, you do. [laughter] gov. Clinton let me say, first of all, to you that i believe so strongly in the question you ask that i suggested this format tonight. I started doing these formats a year ago in new hampshire. And i found that we had huge crowds because all i did was let people ask questions and i tried to give very specific answers. I also had a Program Starting last year. Ive been disturbed by the tone and the tenor of this campaign. Thank goodness the networks have a fact check so i dont have to just go blue in the face anymore. Mr. Bush said once again tonight i was going to have a 150 billion tax increase. When mr. Quayle said that all the networks said, thats not true. Hes got over 100 billion of tax cuts and incentives. So im not going to take up your time tonight. But let me just say this. Well have a debate in four days and