Transcripts For CSPAN3 Presidential Debates 1992 Presidential Debate - Bush V. Clinton V. Perot 20240712

President george bush, arkansas governor bill clinton and independent candidate ross perot. Here now is mr. Ross perot. Ladies and gentlemen. [applause] good to see you thank you. Now, governor clinton. [applause] and now, president bush. [applause] about 30 seconds, we will be going on the air. Good evening and welcome to the first of three debates among the major candidates for president of the United States, sponsored by the commission on president ial debates. The candidates are, independent candidate ross perot, governor bill clinton, the democratic nominee, and president george bush, the republican nominee. I am jim lehrer of the news hour on pbs and i will be the moderator for this 90 minute event, which is taking place before an audience here in the Athletic Complex on the campus of Washington University in st. Louis, missouri. Three journalists will be asking questions tonight. They are john mashek of the boston globe, ann compton of abc news and sander vanocur, a freelance journalist. We will follow a format agreed to by representatives of the clinton and bush campaigns. That agreement contains no restrictions on the content or subject matter of the questions. Each candidate will have up to two minutes for a closing statement. The order of those, as well as the questioning, was determined by a drawing. The first question goes to mr. Perot. He will have two minutes to answer, to be followed by rebuttals of one minute each by governor clinton and then president bush. Gentlemen, good evening. Good evening. The first topic tonight is what separates each of you from the other. Mr. Perot, what do you believe tonight is the single most important separating issue of this campaign . I think the principal issue that separates me is that five and a half Million People came together on their own and put me on the ballot. I was not put on the ballot by either of the two parties. I was not put on the ballot by any pack money, by any foreign lobby money, by any special interest money. This is a movement that came from the people. This is the way the framers of the constitution intended our government to be. A government that comes from the people. Over time, we have developed a government that comes at the people, it comes from the top down, where the people are more or less treated as objects to be programed during the campaign with commercials and media events and their messages and personal attacks and things of that nature. The thing that separates my candidacy and makes it unique is that this came from millions of people in 50 states all over this country who wanted a candidate that worked and belonged to nobody but them. I go into this race as their servant and i belong to them. So this comes from the people. Governor clinton, one minute response. The most important distinction in this campaign is that i represent real hope for change. A departure from trickle down economics. A departure from tax and spend economics to invest and grow. But before i can do that, i must challenge the American People to change and they must decide. Tonight, i say to the president , mr. Bush, for 12 years you had it your way. Youve had your chance and it didnt work. Its time to change. I want to bring that change to the American People, but we must all decide first we have the courage to change hope in a better tomorrow. But president bush, one minute response, sir. I think one thing that distinguishes is experience. I think weve dramatically changed the world. I will talk about that a little bit later, but the changes are mindboggling for world peace. Kids go to bed at night without the same fear of nuclear war. And change for change is sake isnt enough. We saw that message in the late seventies when we heard a lot about change. Well the misery index went why right through the roof. My Economic Program i think is the kind of change we want. The way were going to get it done is we are going to have a brandnew congress. A lot of them are thrown out because of all of these candles. I will sit down with them, democrats and republicans alike, and work for my agenda for american renewal, which represents real change. What i would say if you have to separate out, i think its experience at this level. Governor clinton, how do you respond . You have two minutes on the question of experience. He says that is what distinguishes him from the other two of you. I believe experience counts, but its not everything. The, judgment and the record that i have amassed in my state also should count for something. Ive worked hard to create good jobs and to educate people. My state now ranks first in the country and job growth this year. Fourth in income growth. Fourth in the reduction of poverty. Third and Overall Economic performance according to major news magazine. Thats because we believe in investing in education and jobs. We have to change in this country. You know, my wife hillary gave me a book about a year ago in which the author insanity as just doing the same whole thing over and over again and expecting a different result. We have got to have the courage to change. Experience is important, yes, ive gotten a lot of good experience in dealing with ordinary people over the last year and months. Ive touched more peoples lives and seen more heartbreak and hope, more pain and more promise, than anybody else whos running for president this year. I think the American People deserve better than they are getting. We have gone from first to 13th in the world and wages in the last 12 years. Since mr. Bush and mr. Reagan have been in. Personal income has dropped while people have worked harder in the last four years. There has been twice as many bankruptcies as new jobs created. We need a new approach. The same old experience is not relevant. We are living in a new world after the cold war and what works in this new world is not trickle down, not government for the benefit of the privileged view, not tax and spend, but a commitment to invest in american jobs and american education. Controlling American Health care costs and bringing the American People together. That is what works and you can have the right kind of experience and the wrong kind of experience. Mine is rooted in the real lives of real people and it will bring real results if we have the courage to change. President bush, one minute to respond. I just thought of another big difference here. I dont believe mr. Perot feels this way, but i know governor clinton did because i want to accurately quote him. I think he said that the country is coming apart at the seams. Now, i know that the only way he can win is to make everybody believe the economy is worse than it is. But this country is not coming apart at the seams for heaven sakes. We are the United States of america. In spite of the economic problems, we are the most respected economy around the world. Many would trade for it. Weve been caught up in a global slowdown. We can do much much better, but we ought not try to convince the American People that america is a country that is coming apart at the seams. I would hate to be running for president and think that the only way that i could win would be to convince everybody how horrible things are. Yes there are big problems, and yes people are hurting, but i believe that this agenda for america that i have, is the answer to do it. And i believe we can get it done now, and if we did it in the past, because youre gonna have a whole new brand people in the congress that are gonna have to listen to the same American People and listening to him. Mr. Perot a response . While he has a point. I dont have any experience on running a 14 trillion dollar debt. I dont have any experience in dreadlock government, where nobody takes responsibility for anything and everybody blames everybody else. I dont have any experience in creating the Worst Public School system in the industrial world, and in the prime rib society. But i do have a lot of experience and getting things done. So if were at a point in history, where we want to stop talking and do it, ive got a lot of experience and figuring out how to solve problems, making the solutions work, and moving on to the next one. Ive got a lot of experience in not taking ten years to solve a ten minute problem. So if its time for action, i think i have experience. If its more time for dreadlock, and finger pointing, im the wrong man. President bush, the president goes to you, you have two minutes. Are there important issues of character separating him from these other two men . I think the American People should be the judge of that. I think character is a very important question. I said something the other day, where was accused of being like joe mccarthy. Because i questioned, put it this way, i dont think its wrong to demonstrate against your own country, or organize demonstrations against iran country in foreign soil. I just think its wrong. Maybe they say well its youthful indiscretion. I was 19, or 20, flying of an Aircraft Carrier in that shake me to be the commanderinchief of the air forces. And im sorry, but demonstrating, its not a question of patriotism, its a question of character and judgment. They get on me, bill has gone on me about read my lips, and when i make a mistake i will admit it. But he has made it, not admitted a mistake, and i just find it impossible to understand how an american can demonstrate against his own country, in a foreign land. Organizing demonstrations against it, when young men are held in prison or in hanoi, or kids are getting drafted. Some say while youre in old fashion, maybe an air maybe i am. But i just dont think thats right. Now whether its character, or judgment, whatever it is, i have a big difference here on this issue. And so well just have to see how it plays out. But i couldnt do that. And i dont think most americans can do that, and they all say well it was a long time ago. Will then lets admit it. I made a terrible mistake. How can you be commanderinchief of the armed forces and have some kids say, when you have to make it up decision, like i didnt panama, or in the weight, and have some good jump jump up. Well the commanderinchief was organizing demonstrations halfway around the world. During another era. So there are differences. Thats about the main area where we have a difference. I dont know about, well talk about that a little bit, with ross in a bit. Miss borough, you have one minute. I think the American People make their own decisions, they have their own character. And that a time where we have work to do, and we need action, i think they need to clearly understand the background of each person. I think the press can play a huge role in making sure that the backgrounds are clearly presented in objective ways. Then, you make a decision. Certain people you want in the white house, should have the character to be there. But, i think its very important to measure when things occur, if they are heard when you were a young person in your formative years. Or did new york or when you were a senior official, in the government. When you are a senior official in the government, spending billions of dollars in taxpayer money, and you are mature individual, and you make the mistake, then that was on our take. You make it as a young man,. So i would say, just you know, look at all three of us, decide who you think will get the job, take that person in november. Because believe me, as ive said before, the party is over, and its time for the cleanup crew. And we do have to have change, and people who never take responsibility for anything, when it happens on their watch. Its people who are in charge. Time is. Up your times. Up [laughs] time is. Up more. Later governor clinton, you have one minute. Ross gave a good answer, but i have to respond directly to mr. Bush. You have questioned my patriotism. You even brought some right wing congressmen into the white house to a top me for going to russia, in 1969, 1970. When over 55,000 other americans stated. Now i honor your service in world war ii. I honor mr. Borough service in uniform, and the service of every men and women who ever served. Including admiral crowd, who was your term of the joint, chief in supporting the. But when joe mccarthy went around this country, attacking peoples patriotism, he was wrong. He was wrong. And a senator from connecticut stood up to him, named press scott bush. Your father was right to stand up to joe mccarthy, you were wrong to attack my patriotism. I was opposed to the war, but i love my country. And we need a president who can bring this country together, not divide it. Weve had enough division. I want to unified country. [applause] all right all right move now to the subject of taxes and, spending the question goes to governor clinton for a two minute answer. It will be asked by ann compton. Governor clinton can you lock in a level, here tonight, on a where middle income families can be guaranteed a tax cut, or at the very least, at what income level they can be guaranteed no tax increase . The tax increase i have proposed triggers in our family incomes of 200,000 dollars in above. Those are the people who, in the 19 eighties, had their incomes go up, while their taxes went down. Middle class people defined as people with incomes of 52,000 dollars and down, had their incomes go down, while their taxes went up. In the reagan and bush years, because of six increases in the payroll taxes. So that is where my income limit would trigger. So there would be no tax increases below 200,000. My plan, notwithstanding my opponents, admire planned triggers ad course and comes a families of 200,000 and above. And we want to give modest middle class and relief to restore some fairness, especially since the middle class people with families of income of under 60,000 dollars. In addition to that, the money that i raised from upper income people, and from asking Foreign Corporations just to pay the same income on their income earned in america, that american corporations do, will be used to gave it back to upper income people. I want to give people permanent incentives on investment tax credit, like president kennedy, in the congress inaugurated, in the early sixties. To get industry moving again. A resource in development acts credit, low Income Housing tax, oh though term capital for new business and business expansion. We have to have no more trickle down, we dont need acrosstheboard or tax cut for the wealthy for nothing. We need to say here is your tax incentive, if you create american jobs, the Old Fashioned way. Id like to create more millionaires then were created on the mr. Bush and reagan, but i dont want to have for years where we have no growth in the private sector, and thats what happened in the last four years. We are down 35,000 jobs in the private sector. We need to invest and grow, and thats what i wanted to. President bush, one minute. Well i have to correct one thing. I didnt question the mans patriotism. I questioned his judgment and his character. What he did in moscow, thats fine. When he explained it, he did, i accept. That but i dont accept his demonstrating in organizing demonstrations in a foreign country, when your country is at war. I am sorry, i cannot accept that. In terms of this one on taxes, spells out the biggest difference between. As i do not believe we need to go back to them on day old proposal of the caucus proposal of tax instead. Governor clinton says 200, 000, but he also says he wants to raise 150 billion. The two pack taxing people or 200,000 will not get you 150 billion. And then when you added to his old other spending proposals, regrettably, its ended up sucking to the old working man. Were gonna sold the rich, were gonna soak the rich, it always ends up being the report cabdriver, or the working men that ends up being the bill. So i just have a different approach. I believe the way to get the deficit down is to control the growth of mandatory spending programs. And not raise taxes on the American People. Thats a big difference there. Mr. Perot, one minute. [applause] youve got to have a growing expanding job, to have a growing expanding tax base. Right now we have a flight deteriorating job base, and where it appears to be growing, is minimal ways jobs. So we have to really rebuild our job base. Thats going to take money for Infrastructure Investment to do. That i find theyre doing, and we are not. We cannot pay off the for chilean four trillion dollar debt, the industry is the future of the half paying jobs in this country, without having a revenue, were going to go through a period of shared sacrifice. Theres one challenge, its gonna be fair. Weve created a mess, we dont have too much to show for it, and we have got to fix it. And thats about all i can say on that. Okay. Next question goes to president bush, for a two minute answer. And then it will be asked by law sander vanocour. Mister president , Michael Stone said he had no plans to abide by congressional mandate, to cut u. S. Forces in europe, from 150 to 100,000 by the end of september 1996. Now, why almost 50 years after the end of world war ii, and with a total collapse of the soviet union, should american taxpayers be taxed to support armies in europe, when the europeans have plenty of money to do it for themselves . Well. Thats a good question, and the answer is, for 40 some years we kept the peace. If you look at the cost of not keeping the peace in europe, it would be exorbitant. We have reduced the number of troops that have deployed, and going to be deployed. I have cut defense spending. And the reason we can do that, is because of our fantastic success in winning the cold war. We never wouldve got there if we had gone for the Nuclear Freeze crowd. Never wouldve got there if we wouldve listened to those down wanted to cut defense spending. I think it is important that the United States stay in europe, and continue to guarantee the peace. We simply cannot pull back. Now, when anybody has a spending program, they want to spend money on at home, they said well lets get money out of the defense department. I will accept, and have accepted, the recommendations of two proven leaders. General colin powell, and secretary dick cheney, they feel the levels we are operating at and the productions i have proposed our proper. And so, i simply do not think we should go back to the isolation days, and start blaming foreigners. We are the sole remaining superpower. And we should be that. And we have a certain disproportionate responsibility, but i would ask the American People to understand that if we make imprudent cuts, if we go too far, we risk the peace. And i dont do that. Ive seen what it is like to see the water, to see the burdens of a war, and i dont wanna see this reckless cuts. Because of our programs, we have been able to significantly cut defense spending. But lets not cut into the muscle, and lets not cut down our insurance policy, which is participation of American Forces in nato, the greatest Peace Keeping organization ever made. Today have problems in europe, still bubbling around even though europes democracies are route. Where we are there and i think this insurance policy is necessary. I think it goes with world leadership. And i think that the levels we have come up with, are just about right. Mr. Perot, one minute, sir. If im poor and you are rich, and i can get you to defend me, thats good. The when the tables get turned, i ought to do my stuff. Right now we spent about 300 billion dollars a year in the fans, the japanese been around 30 billion, in asia, the generals spend 30 billion in europe. For example, germany will spend a trillion dollars Building Infrastructure over the next ten years. Its kind of easy to do, if you only have to pick up a 30 billiondollar tab depicted to defend your country. The European Community is in a position to pay a lot more than they have in the past. I agree with the, president when they couldnt we should. Have now that they can, we shouldnt. We sort of see to have a desire to stay over there in control, they dont want us to control, very candidly. So act like its very important, for us to lay down more and more of the burden. In first ring that money back here, and rebuild our infrastructure, because we can only be a superpower if we are an economic superpower. And we can only be an economic superpower if we have a growing expanding job market. Governor clinton . One minute, sir. I agree with a general statement, mr. Bush made, and i disagree that we need 150,000 troops to fulfill a role in europe. We certainly must maintain an engagement there, there are certainly dangers they are. There are certainly other trouble spots in the world, which are closer to europe, then to the United States. But, to former defense secretary as recently issued reports saying that 100,000 should be enough, including president reagans former defense secretary. Many of the military experts, i have consulted on, this every. We are going to have to spend more money in the future, on military technology. And on greater mobility, greater airlift, greater sea lift. The b 22 airplane. Were gonna have to do some things that are quite costly, and i simply dont believe we can afford nor do we need to keep 150,000 troops in europe, given how much the red army, now under control of russia, has been cut. The arms control agreement concluded between mr. Bush and mr. Something i have applauded. I dont think we need 150,000 troops. Let me make one another point, mr. Bush talked about texas, he didnt tell you that he vetoed the middle class tax cut, because it would be paid for by raising taxes on the wealthy. He vetoed an investment tax credit paid for by the raising taxes on the wealthy. All right, we will go now to the domestic to mr. Perot, for a two minute question. It will be asked by john mashek. Mr. Perot he talked about fairness, every minute. Ago and sharing the pain. Is part of your plan to reduce the ballooning federal deficit, you took jested we raise gasoline taxes 50 cents a gallon, over five years. Why punished middle Class Consumer to such a degree . Its ten cents a year. The family gets the 50 cents at the end of the 50 year. If i punish is the wrong word, see again i did not create this problem, were trying to solve it. If you study our International Competitors, some of our International Competitors collect up to three dollars and 50 cents a gallon in taxes, and they used up money to build infrastructure and create jobs. We could like 35 cents and we dont have it to stand. I know its not popular, and i understand the nature of your question, that the people who will be help the most by it or the working people who will get the jobs created because of this tax. Why do we have to do it . Because we have so mismanaged our country over the years, and it is now time to pay the fiddler, and if we dont, we will be spending our childrens money. We have spent four trillion dollars already, an incredible number of young people are active in supporting my efforts, because they are deeply concerned that we have taken the American Dreams from them. I think its fitting, that were on the campus of the university tonight, these young people when they get out of this wonderful university, they will have difficulty finding a job. Weve got to clean this mess up, weve got to leave this country in good shape, and pass on the American Dream to them. Weve got to collect the taxes to do. And if theres a fairer way, im all four years. [laughs] but, let me make it very clear, people dont have the stomach to fix these problems, i think its good time to face them in november. If they do, then they will have heard the harsh reality of what we have to do. Im not playing large music, tonight. All right, governor clinton, you have the minutes here. I think mr. Perot has confronted this deficit issue, but i think its important to point out that we really have to deficits in america, and not one. We have a budget deficit in the federal government. But we also have an investment of jobs and income deficit. People are working harder for less money, than they were making ten years ago. Two thirds of our people. 1600 dollar income dropped in just two years. The problem i have with the perot prescription is almost all the economies that have looked at this if you cut the deficit by this much, this quake, it will increase unemployment, it will slow down the economy. Thats why i think we should do it. That quickly. We have a discipline reduction in the deficit in the 15 of the next four years, but first, get the senate to invest in the economy, but the American People back to work. We have to invest and grow, not a noble prize Winning Economist and 500 dollars, including numerous republican and democratic business executives, have endorsed despair prochoice it offers the best approach but americans back to work and raise the income. President bush, one minute, sir. The question wasnt fairness, i just disagree with mr. Perot. I dont think it is fairness to slap a 50 cent a gallon tax over whatever the many years on the people that have to drive for living, people id go long distances. I dont think we need to do it. You see, i have a fundamental difference, i agree with what he is talking about in trying to get this spending down, and the discipline. Although, i think we ought to exempt Social Security. But hes talking tough medicine, and i think thats good. I disagree with the tax and spend philosophy. You think you see i dont think we need to tax more and spend more, and then say thats gonna make the problem better. Im afraid thats what i think im hearing from governor clinton. I believe what we need to do is somewhat ross is talking about, control the growth of mandatory spending, and get taxes down. Hes mentioned some ways to do it. And i agree with those. Ive been talking about getting a Capital Gains cut forever, and his friends in congress have been telling me thats a tax break for the rich. It would stimulate investment. Im for investment, i am for a first time tax break for first time home buyers, and with this new congress coming in, this person will be done and i will sit down with them and say lets get this done. But i do not want to go with tax and spending. All right, lets move on out to the subject of jobs. The first question goes to president bush, for two minutes. And john will ask that question. John. Mister president , last month you came to st. Louis to announce a very lucrative contract to build f15 for saudi arabia. And today post dispatch a retired sales woman, asked if she could ask a question of the candidates, said she wanted to register her concern about the lack of a plan to convert our defense Oriented Industries into other purposes . How would you enter her . Well, i assume she was supportive of the decision on mcdonald douglas. I assume she was supportive of the decision to sell those airplanes. I think its a good decision. It took a little heat for it, but i think it was a correct decision to do it, and we work that out. In removing forward all around the world, in much more peaceful ways. So that we came away with creating jobs for the American People. I would simply say to her, look, take a look at what the president is proposing on jobs retraining. When you cut back on defense spending, some people are gonna be thrown out of work. If you throw another 50,000 kids on the street, because of cutting recklessly, in troop levels, youre gonna put a lot more out of work. I would say to him, look at the job retraining programs, that we are proposing. Varying is the best answer to. Her and the other one is, stimulate investment in savings. I mean, we have big economic problems, but we are not coming apart at the seams. We are ready for recovery. With Interest Rates now down, and inflation down, the cruelest acts of all, caught up in a global slowdown right now, but that will change, if you go with the programs ive talked about. And if you help with job retraining, and education. I am a Firm Believer that our american 2000 education problem is the answer. A little on the run, its gonna take a while to educate, but it is a good program. So her best hope, for short term, is job retraining, if she was thrown out of work in the defense plan. But teller its not all that gloomy. Where the United States, we face tough problems before. Look at the misery index when the democrats had both the white house and the congress, it was just right through the roof. Now, we can do better. And the way to do better is not to tax and spend, but to retrain, and get that control of the mandatory spending program. I am much more optimistic about this country than some. Mr. Perot . Mr. Perot, you have one minute, sir. The defense is gonna have to convert converted to civilian industries, many of them. Our and the sooner they started center they will finish. And there will be a significant transition. It is very important that we not continue to make our Industrial Base deteriorate. Someone, who im sure was great said, it in the president stabbed, said he didnt care whether he made potato chips or computer chips. Well anybody who thinks about it carries a great deal. Number one, youre making more in computer chips and potato chips. Number two, 19 out of 20 compared ships that we have in this country now come from japan. Weve given away hold in the streets. And we faced these industries when theres a lot of intellectual talent in these industries, a lot of these people and industries can be converted to the industries of tomorrow. And thats where we have been jobs are. We need to have a very carefully thought through phase over. Now, we practice night the rest of the world practices 21st century capitalism. I cant handle that in a minute, but i hope we get back into it later. The rest of the world, the countries and the businesses should be working together to make this transition into an intelligent way. Governor clinton, you have one minute, sir. We must have a transition plan to plan to convert from the defensive domestic economy. No other nation would have got in the fence as much as we already have, without that. There are 200,000 people unemployed in california alone. Because we have cut defense without planning, to retrain, them and to reinvest in the technologies in the future, here at home. That is what i want to do. The snow ministration may say they have a plan, but the truth is, they have not even released all the money the paltry sum of money that congress appropriated. I want to take every dollar by which we have produced a fence and we invested in technologies for the 21st century. And you transportation, you communication, and environmental cleanup technologies. Lets put the American People to work. And lets build a kind of high tech highway growth economy, that the American People deserve. All right, the next question goes to mr. Perot, for two moderna answer. It will be asked by and. And . Mr. Brody talked a minute ago about rebuilding the job base. Is it true what governor clinches said, that that means that unemployment will increase and slow the economy. And how would you specifically use the powers of the presidency, to get more people back into the good jobs, immediately . Step one, the American People send me up there, the day after election, i go to the congress, we want to win weight ellen operation, ill ask president to help me and his staff to help me. We will start putting together teams to put together, to take all the plans that exist and do something. Please understand, theyre great plans lionel or washington, nobody ever executes them. Its like having a blueprint for a house in a rebuild. You have nowhere to sleep. Now, i our challenges to take these plays and do something about. It step one, you want to put america back to work, clean up the Small Business problem. Have one task force to work on that. The second you have your Big Companies are gonna be in trouble, including the defense industries, i have another one on. That have a third task force on new industries in the future. To make sure we nail those countries, and they dont wind up in other nations. Convert from 19 to 21st century capitalism. Say we have an adversarial relationship between government and business, our International Competitors that are cleaning our plate have an intelligent relationship between government and business, in a supportive relationship. Then, have another task force on crime. Because next jobs are people who are concerned about their safety. Health care. Schools. One of the depth deficit. And finally, before the integration, put together their framework for the town hall, and give the American People are christmas present. Show them by christmas their first cut at these plans. By the Time Congress comes into session, and goes to work, have those plans ready to go in front of congress. Then get off to a fine start in 93, to execute these plans. Now theres people in this room, and people on this stage, to have been in meetings when i was sitting there and say is this one were gonna talk about and do something about it . They go, obviously my orientation is lets go do it. Now, but together your plans by christmas, be ready to go when congress goes. And all these things, Small Business, youve got to have capital, youve got to have credit, many need mentors our coaches. And we can create more jobs in a hurry than any other place. Governor clinton, one minute. This country desperately needs a jobs program. And my First Priority will be to pass a program to introduce it on the first day, i was inaugurated, i would meet with the leaders of the congress, all the newly elected members of the congress, as many others i can meet between the time of the election at the inauguration. And we would present a jobs program. Then we would present a plan to control Health Care Cost, and face all Health Problems in america. Until we control Health Care Cost, were not gonna control the deficit. It is the number one culprit. But first we must have an aggressive jobs program. I live in a state where manufacturing job growth is far outpaced nation in the few years. We have created more private sector job since mr. Bush has been president , that have been created in the interest of the country. Where mr. Bush labor secretary said the job growth has been enormous. Weve done it in our give me a chance to create these kind of jobs in america, we can do it, and i know we can. [applause] president bush, one minute. Weve got to plan, announced what we can do for Small Business, ive already put forward things that will get this country working fast. Some of which have been echoed here, tonight. Tax, ounce Capital Gains reduction, research and development, tax credit for first time home buyers. What im gonna do is say to jim when this campaign is over, all right lets sit down now, you do in Domestic Affairs which have done in Foreign Affairs, be the kind of the economic coordinator of all the domestic sites to the house. And that includes all the economic side, all the training side. And bring this program together, more and have a new congress, were gonna say to them youd listen to the voters where we have. Nobody wants dreadlocked in more. So lets get the program through. And i believe it will work. Because thats ross said, weve got the plans, the plans are all over washington. And ive put hours together. In something called the agenda for american renewal, and it makes sense, its sensible. It creates jobs, it gets to the base of the kind of jobs we need. And so, ill just be asking for support, to get that put into effect. All, right the next question goes to governor clinton, for two minutes. It will be asked by sandy. Governor clinton. And when the president running for the first time gets into the office, and wants to do something about the economy, he finds in washington there is a person who is much more power in the economy than he does. The chairman of the Federal Reserve board. Accountable to no one. That being the case, would you go along with proposals made by treasury secretary, james brady, congressman lee hamilton, to make the Federal Reserve chairman somehow more accountable to elected officials . Well, let me say that i think that we might ought to review the terms, the way it works. But frankly, i dont think thats the problem today. We have low Interest Rates today. At least we have low Interest Rates that the fed can control. Our longterm Interest Rates are still pretty high because of our deficit and because of our economic performance. And there was a terrible reaction internationally to mr. Bush saying he was going to give us 4 more years of trickledown economicsanother acrosstheboard tax cut and most of it going to the wealthy, with no real guarantee of investment. But i think the important thingthe important thingis to use the powers the president does have on the assumption that, given the condition of this economy, were going to keep Interest Rates down if we have the discipline to increase investment and reduce the debt at the same time. That is my commitment. I think the American People are ready for action. I think congress is hungry for someone who will work with them instead of manipulate them. Someone who will not veto a bill that has an investment tax credit, middle class tax relief, research and Development Tax credits as mr. Bush has done. Give me a chance to do that. I dont have to worry in the near term about the Federal Reserve. Their policies so far, it seems to me, are pretty sound. President bush you have one minute. I dont think the fed ought to be put under the executive branch. There is a separation there. I think thats fine. Alan greenspan is respected. Ive had some arguments with him about the speed in which we might have lowered rates. But governor clinton, the talks about the reaction to the markets there was a momentary fear that he might win and that the markets went phwee, down like that. So i dont think we can judge on, the stock market has been strong. Its been very strong since ive been president. And they recognize we got great difficulties, but theyre also much more optimistic than the pessimists we have up here tonight. In terms of vetoing tax bills, youre darn right. I am going to protect the american taxpayer against the spend and tax congress. And im going to keep on vetoing them, because i dont think were taxed too little. I think the governments spending too much. So governor clinton can label it tax for the rich or anything he wants. Im going to protect the working man by continuing to veto, and to threaten to veto until we get this new congress, and then were going to move forward on our plan. Mr. Perot, one minute. Keep the Federal Reserve independent, but lets live in a world of reality. We live in a global economy, not a national economy. These Interest Rates we have now dont make any sense we have a four trillion dollar debt, and only in america would you finance seventy percent of it five years or less. So 70 of our debt is five years or less. Its very interest said so to. Sensitive. We have a four percent gap between what we pay for treasuries, and what germany pays for one to five year treasuries. That gap is going to close, because the arabs, the japanese and folks in this country are going to start buying german treasuries because they can get more money. Every time our Interest Rates go up one percent, that adds 28 billion dollars to the deficit or to the debt. Whichever place you put it. We are sitting on a ticking time bomb folks, because we have totally mismanaged our country, and we had better get it back under control. Just think in your own business, if you had all of your long term problems financed short term. Youd go broke in a hurry. Were going to move to Foreign Affairs. The first question goes to mr. Perot for a two minute answer, and sandy will ask it. Mr. Perot, and the post war, the cold war environment, what should be the overriding u. S. National interest . And what can the United States do, and what canada for to do, to defend that National Interest . Well, again, if youre not rich, youre not a superpower. So we have two that i put as number one. One is weve got to have the money to be able to pay for defense, and weve got to manufacture here. Believe it or not folks, you can ship it all overseas, youve got to make it here. And you cant convert from potato chips to airplanes in an emergency. See, willow run could be converted from cars to airplanes in world war ii because it was here. Weve got to make things here. You cant just ship them overseas anymore. I hope we talk more about that. Second thing, on priorities, weve got to help russia succeed in its revolution and all of its republics. When we think of russia, remember, were thinking of many countries now. Weve got to help them. Its pennies on the dollar compared to renewing the cold war. Third, weve got all kinds of agreements on paper, and some that are being executed on getting rid of nuclear warheads. Russia and its republics are out of control, or at best, in we control right now. Its a very unstable situation. Youve got every rich middle eastern country over there trying to buy nuclear weapons, as you well know. And that will lead to a another five star migraine headache down the road. We really need to nail down the Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles, the ones that can hit us from russia. And were focused on the tactical, weve made Real Progress there, weve got some agreements on the nuclear, but we dont have those things put away yet. The sooner the better. So, in terms of priorities, weve got to be financially strong. Number two, weve got to take care of this missile situation and try to get the nuclear war behind us and give that a very high priority. And number three, we need to help and support russia and the republics in every possible way to become democratic capitalist societies, and not just sit back and let those countries continue in turmoil. Because they could go back worse than things used to be, and believe me, there are a lot of old boys in the kgb in the military that likes it better the way it used to be. Thank you. Governor clinton, one minute. In order to keep america the strongest nation in the world, we need some continuity and some change. There are three fundamental challenges. First of all, the world is still a dangerous and uncertain place. We need a new military and a new National Security policy equal to the challenges of a the post cold war era. A smaller Permanent Military force, but one that is more mobile, well trained, with High Technology equipment. We need to continue the negotiations to reduce the Nuclear Arsenals in the soviet union, the former soviet union, and the United States. We need to stop this proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. Second, we have to face that in this world, Economic Security is a whole lot of National Security. Our dollars at an alltime low against some foreign currencies. We are weak in the world. We must rebuild america strength at home. And finally, we ought to be promoting the democratic impulses around the world. Democracies are our partners. They dont go to war with each other. They are reliable trends in the future. National security, economic strength, democracy. President bush, one minute. Well, we still are the envy of the the world in terms of our military. Theres no questions about that. We are the envy of the world in terms of our economy, despite the difficulties were having. Theres no question about that. Our exports are dramatically up. I might say to mr. Perot, i can understand why you might have missed it, because theres so much fascination by trivia, but i worked out a deal with Boris Yeltsin to eliminate, get rid of entirely, the most destabilizing weapons of all the ss18, the intercontinental ballistic missile. I mean, thats been done. And thank god, it has, because the parents of these young people around here go to bed at night without the same fear of nuclear war. We made dramatic progress. And so, weve got a good military. The question, to sort of get a new military, get the best in the world, we got it, and theyre keeping the peace and the respected around the world. And we are more respected because of the way weve have conducted ourselves. We can listen to the Nuclear Freeze crowd. We said peace through strength and it worked in the cold war is over. America understands that. We are turned so inward that we dont understand the global picture. And we are helping democracy, ross. The freedom support act is something that i got through the congress and its a very good thing because it does exactly what you say. And i think you agree with that, to help russian democracy. And were going to keep on doing that. N next question is for governor clinton, and john will ask it. Governor clinton, you accused the president of coddling tyrants, including those in beijing. As president , how would you exert u. S. Power to influence affairs in china. I think our relationships with china are important and i dont want to isolate china, but i think it is a mistake for us to do what this administration did when all those kids went out there carrying the statue of liberty in tiananmen square. Mr bush sent two people in secret to toast the chinese leaders and basically tell them not to worry about it. They rewarded him by opening negotiations with iran to transfer nuclear technology. That was their response to that sort of action. Now that the voices in the congress and throughout the country have insisted that we do something about china, look at what has happened. China has finally agreed to stop sending us products made with prison labor. Not because we coddled them, but because the administration was pushed into doing something about it. And recently the chinese have announced they are going to lower some barriers to our products, which they ought to do since they have a 15 billion dollar trade surplus with the United States under mr. Bush. The second biggest surplus of all, second to japan. So, i would be firm. I would say if you want to continue as most favored nation status for your government owned industries as well as your private ones, observe human rights in the future. Open your society. Recognize the legitimacy of those kids that were carrying the statue of liberty. If we can stand up for our economic interests, we ought to be able to preserve the democratic interests of the people in china. And over the long run, they will be more reliable partners. [applause] president bush, you have one minute. Well, administration ministration was the first major country to stand up against the abuse and tiananmen square. We are the ones that worked out the prison labor deal. We are the ones that have lowered the barrier to products with carla hills negotiation. I am the one that said lets keep the mf and because, you see, china moving towards a free market economy. To do what the congress and governor clinton is suggesting, youd isolate and ruin hong kong. They are making some progress, not enough for us. We were the first ones to put sanctions on. We still have them on on some things. But governor clintons philosophy is isolate them. He says dont do it, but the policies hes expounding of putting conditions m. F. N. And kind of humiliating them is not the way you make the kind of progress we are getting. Ive stood up with these people and i understand what you have to do to be strong in this situation and its moving. Not as fast as wed like, but you isolate china and turn them inward and then weve made a tremendous mistake. And im not going to do it and ive had to fight a lot of people that were saying human rights, and we are the ones that put the sanctions on and stood for it. And he can insult general scowcroft if he wants to. They didnt go over to coddle. He went over to say we must make the changes they are making no. [applause] one minute, mr. Perot. China is a huge country. Its broken into many provinces. It has some very elderly leaders. It will not be around too much longer. Capitalism is growing and thriving across big portions of china. Asia will be our largest trading partner in the future. It will be a growing and a closer relationship. We have a delicate tight wire to walk that we must go through at the present time to make sure that we do not cozy up to tyrants. To make sure that they do not get the impression that they can suppress their people. But time is our friend there, because theyre leaders will change in not too many years, worstcase, and their country is making great progress. One last point on the missiles. I dont want the American People to be confused. We have written agreements and we have some missiles that have been destroyed, but we have a huge number of Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles that are still in place in russia. The fact that you have an agreement is one thing. Till they are destroyed, some crazy person can either sell them or use them. All right. The next question goes to president bush for a two minute answer and ann will ask it. Mister president , how can you watch the killing in bosnia and the ethnic cleansing or the starvation and anarchy in somalia and not want to use americas might, if not americas military, to try to end that kind of suffering . Ann, both of them are very completed situations. And i about something because i learned something from vietnam. Im not going to commit u. S. Forces until i know what the mission is. Until the military tell me that it can be completed until i know how they can come out. We are helping. American airplanes are helping today on humanitarian relief for sarajevo. It is america that is in the league for helping with humanitarian relief in so malia somalia. But when you put somebody else his son or daughter into war, i think you have to be a little bit careful and i think you have to be sure that there is a military plan they can do this. You have ancient ethnic rivalries that have cropped up as yugoslavias dissolved, or getting dissolved, and it isnt going to be solved by sending in the 82nd airborne, and im not going to do that as commanderinchief. I am going to stand by and use the moral persuasion of the United States to get satisfaction in terms of prison camps and were making some progress there, and in terms of getting humanitarian relief in there. And right now, as you know, the United States took the lead in a no fly operation up there, a no fly order, up in the United Nations. We are working through the international organizations. The united thats one thing i learned by forging by tremendous and great highly successful coalition against donald essayed. Use, work internationally to do it. Im very concerned about, it about ethnic cleansing. About attacks on muslims for example, over there. But i must stop short, of using American Force until i know how those young men and women are gonna get out of their, as well as getting, know what the mission is and define it. And i think im on the right track. [inaudible] sorry, time is up. We have to go to mr. Perot, for one minute. I think if we learned anything in vietnam, is that you first commit this nation before you commit the troops to the battlefield. We cannot send our people all over the world, to solve any problem that comes at us. This is basically a problem, that is a primary concern to the European Community. Certainly, we care about the people, we care about the children, we care about the tragic. But, it is inappropriate, for us just because there is a problem somewhere around the world, to take the sons and daughters of working people, make no mistake about it, ill volunteer our force, it is not made up of our sons and daughters beautiful people. Working folks who standard son started four were war, with two exceptions. World war ii when fdr sons flew missions. Everybody went. Very important, that we not without thinking it through, what we cannot have our people torn to pieces. You governor clinton, one minute. I agree that we cannot commit Ground Forces to become involved in the quagmire of bosnia. Or in the tribal wars of somalia. But i think that its important to recognize that there are things that can be done short of that, and all we do have interests their. There are after all 2 million refugees now because of the problems and yugoslavia, the largest number since world war ii. And there might be hundreds of thousands of people who will starve or freeze to death in this winter. The United States should try to work with his allies to stop. I urged the president to support this air cover, and he did, and i applaud that. I applaud the no fly zone. And i know hes going back to the United Nations to try to get authority to enforce it. I think we should stiffen the embargo on the government, and i think we have to consider whether or not we should lift the arms embargo you now on the bosnians, since they are in no way ana fairfax fight with the heavily armed opponent in ethnic cleansing. We must do what we can. All right, moving on now, two divisions in our country. The first question goes to governor clinton, for two minutes, and and will ask it. Governor clinton, can you tell us what your definition of the word family is . Your family involves at least one parent whether natural or adoptive, or foster, and children. A good family is a place where love and discipline in good values are transmitted, from the elders to the children. A place where people turn for refuge and where they know they are the most important people in the world, america has a lot of families that are in trouble today. Theres been a lot of talk about family values in this campaign. And i know a lot about that. I was born to a widow ad mother who gave me family values, and grandparents on seeing the family values in my people from our concern. Ive seen a family values all these people in america who are out there killing themselves, working harder for less. In a country that had the worst economic years in 50 years, and the first decline in Industrial Production ever. I think the president owes it to the family values to show that he values american families. Whether the people are in the water, and youre trying to move from welfare to work, to working for, i think they deserve a tax break to lift him from poverty if they have a child in the house and working 40 hours a week. Working families, who deserve a fair tax system, and the opportunity for constant retraining. They deserve a strong economy. And i think they deserve a family and medical leave act, 72 other nations have been able to do it. Mr. Bush vetoed twice, because he says we cannot do something 72 other countries do. Even though there was a Small Business exemption. So all the talk about family values, i know all about family values, i wouldnt be here without them. The best expression in my family values is tonight is my 17th wedding anniversary, and i would like to close my question by just wishing my wife happy anniversary, and thank you my daughter for being here. [applause] president bush, one minute. Well i would say one meeting that made a profound impression on me was when the mayors of the big cities, including the mayor of los angeles, democrat, came to see me in a unanimously said that the decline in urban america stems from the decline in the american family. So i do think we need to strengthen family. When barbara holds an ice, she certainly holds compassion for family, when she reached children. The same thing. I believe that discipline, and respect for the law with, all of these things should be taught to children. Not and our schools, but families have to do that. I am appalled at the highest outrageous numbers of divorces. It happens in families, it happened in hours. But its gotten too much. And i just think that we ought to do everything we can, to respect the american family. It can be a single parent family, those mothers need help. And one way to do, it is to get these deadbeat fathers to pay their obligations to these mothers. Stud will help strengthen the american family. And theres a whole bunch of other things, but i can click off in a short period of time. All right mr. Borough, you have one minute. If i had to solve all the problems that faced is country, and i could be granted one way or is we started down the trail, and rebuild a draw base, the schools and so on and so forth. I would say a Strong Family unit in every home. Where every child is loved, nurtured, and encouraged. A little child before theyre 18 months, we ought to think a lot of himself poorly. They develop a positive or negative self image. And a very early age, to learn how to if we have children who are not surrounded with love and affection, i wonder if my grandchildren will ever learn to walk because youre always in someones arms. And i think, my gosh wouldnt be wonderful if every child had had love and support. But they dont. We will not be a great country, unless we have a Strong Family unit in every home. And i think you can use the white house as a bullet culprit to stress the importance of these little children, particularly in the young formative years, to mold these little precious pieces so they too can live ritual lives, when theyre grown. [applause] new question, two minute answer, goes to president bush. Sandy, alaska. Mister president , theres been a lot of talk about harry truman in this campaign, so much so, that i think tomorrow ill wake up and see his name as an ex commissioner of baseball. They could use one. The thing that mr. Truman had to deal with was drugs. Americans are increasingly alarmed about drug related crimes in cities and suburbs. And your administration is not the first to have rappelled with this, are you at all of a mind that maybe we ought to go to another level, if not to what advocated by William Buckley jr. . The legalization, somewhere between there and where we are now . No. I dont think thats the right answer. I dont believe legalizing narcotics is the answer. I just dont believe thats the answer. I do believe that there is some fairly good news out there. The use of cocaine, for example, by teenagers is dramatically down. But weve got to keep fighting on this war against drugs, were doing a little better intermission many of the country is below the use. We used to say this is the United States, and we wouldnt have this problem by working collaboratively, but the dea, in the military. Were using a military more now in terms of our nation, our funding for recovery is up. Recovering in the attic. There were not making the progress, were making it in teenagers, and thank god, because i felt what ross said, who is most appropriate about these families, and these children. But the point for that were not making its with confirmed attics. And ill tell you one place that its working well, and that is the private sector. Jim burke, in the task force that he has, you may know about, it ill tell the American People, this man said ill give you 1 Million Dollars a day probono advertisement. Something thats very hard for the government to do. And he went out and he did it. And people are beginning to educate through this program, teaching these kids you shouldnt use drugs. Phil will still in the fight, i must tell, you i think legalization of narcotics something that major in the face of the medical evidence would be totally counterproductive,. And i oppose it and im going to stand up and continue to oppose. It [applause] mr. Perot. Anytime you think you want to legalize drugs, go to a neonatal unit, if you can get in. They are between 100 and 200 capacity up and down the east coast. The reason is crack babies being born. Babies and hospital 42 days. Typical cost to you and me is 125,000 dollars. Again and again and again, the mother disappears in three days and the child becomes award of the state because he is permanently and genetically damaged. Just look at those little children, and if anybody can even think about legalizing drugs, theyve lost to me. But now lets look at priorities. We went on the libyan raid. You remember that one . We were worried that gaddafi might be building up chemical weapons. Weve got Chemical Warfare being conducted against our children on the streets in this country all day every day, and we dont have the will to stamp it out. Now, again, if i get up there, if you send me, were going to have some blunt talks about this, and were really going to get down in the trenches and say, is this when you want to talk about or fix, because top will do it, folks. There are guys that couldnt get a job, third shift in a dairy queen, driving bmw in mercedes selling drugs. And these old boys are not going to quit easy. [applause] governor clinton, one minute. Like mr. Perot, i have helped crack babies in my arms. Held crack babies in my arms. But i think i know more about this than anybody else up here because i have a brother whos a recovering drug addict. Im very proud of him. What i can tell you this, if drugs were legal i do not think he would be alive today. Im adamantly opposed to legalizing drugs. He is alive today because of the criminal justice system. Thats a mistake. What should we do . First, we ought to prevent more of this on the street. 30 years ago, there were three policemen for every crime, now there are three crimes for every policeman. We need 100,000 more police on the street. I have a plan for that. Secondly, we ought to have treatment on demand. Thirdly, we ought to have boot camps for first time nonviolent offenders so they can get disappoint and treatment and education and get reconnected to the community before they are severed and sent to prison where they can learn how to be first class criminals. There is a crime bill that, lamentably, was blocked from passage once again, mostly by republicans in the United States senate, which wouldve addressed some of these problems. That crime bill is going to be one of my highest priorities next january if i become president. [applause] next question is to you, mr. Perot. You have two minutes to answer it and john will ask it. Mr. Perot, Racial Division continues to tear apart our great cities, the last episode being this spring in los angeles. Why is this still happening in america and what would you do to end it . This is a relevant question here tonight. The first thing i would do is, during political campaigns, i would urge everybody to stop trying to split this country into fragments and appeal to the differences between us and then wonder why the melting pot is all broken to pieces after november the 3rd. [applause] we are all in this together. We ought to love one another because united teams win and divided teams lose. And if we cant love one another, we ought to get along with one another. And if you cant get there, just recognize we are all stuck with one of the other because nobody is going anywhere, right . [laughs] now, that ought to get everybody back up and lets get along together and make it work. Our diversity is the strength. We turned it into a weakness. Now again, the white house is a bully pulpit. I think whoever is in the white house should just make it absolutely unconscionable and inexcusable, and if anybody is in the middle of a speech at, you know, one of these conventions, i would expect the candidate to go out and lift him off the stage if he starts preaching hate because we dont have time for it. See, our differences are our strengths. We have got to pull together. In athletics, we know it. See, divided teams lose, united teams win. We have got to unite and pull together, and theres nothing we cant do. But if we sit around blowing all this energy out the window on racial strife and hatred, we are stuck with a sure loser because we have been a melting pot. We are becoming more and more of a melting pot. Lets make it a strength, not a weakness. [applause] governor clinton, one minute. I grew up in the segregated south. Thankfully raised by a grandfather with almost no formal education, but with a heart of gold who taught me early that all people were equal in the eyes of god. I saw the winds of hatred divide people and keep the people of my state or then they would have been, spiritually and economically. And ive done everything i could in my public life to overcome Racial Divisions. We dont have a person to waste in this country. We are being murdered economically because we have too many dropouts, we have too many low birth weight babies, we have too many drug addicts as kids, we have too much violence, we are too divided by race, by income, by region. And i have devoted a major portion of this campaign to going across this country and looking for opportunities to go to white groups and African American groups and latino groups and Asian American groups and say the same thing. If the American People cannot be brought together, we cant turn this country around. If we can come, together nothing, nothing can stop us. [applause] mister president , one minute. Well, i think governor clinton is committed. I do think its fair to note, he can rebut it, that arkansas is one of the few states that doesnt have any civil rights legislation. Ive tried to use the white house as the bully pulpit, speaking out against discrimination. We passed two very forwardlooking civil rights bills. Its not going to be all done by legislation. But i do think that you need to make an appeal every time you can to illuminate Racial Divisions and discrimination, and ill keep on doing that and pointing to some legislative accomplishments to back it up. I have to take ten seconds here at the end, the red light isnt on yet, to say to ross perot, please dont say to the dea agents on the street that we dont have the will to fight drugs. Please. I have watched these people, the same for our local Law Enforcement people. We are backing up at every way we possibly can. But maybe you meant that some of the country dont have the will to find it, but those that are out there on the front line, as you know, youve been a strong backer of Law Enforcement, really, i just want to clear that up, have the will to find it, and, frankly some of them are giving their lives. Time, mister president. All right, lets now go to another subject. The subject of help. The first question for two minutes is to president bush and john will ask it. Mister president , yesterday, tens of thousands of people paraded past the white house to demonstrate their concern about the disease aids. A celebrated of your commission, Magic Johnson, quit saying that there was too much inaction. Where is this widespread feeling coming from that your administration is not doing enough about aids . Coming from the political process. We have increased funding for aids. Weve doubled it on research and on every other aspect of it. My request for this year was 4. 9 billion dollars for aids, ten times as much for aids victim as per cancer victim. I think that were showing the proper compassion and concern. So i cant tell you where its coming from, but i am very much concerned about aids aids, and i believe that weve got the best researchers in the world out there at nih working the problem. We are funding them. I wish there was more money, but we are funding them far more than any time in the past, and were going to keep on doing that. I dont know. I was a little disappointed in magic, because he came to me and i said, if you see something were not doing, get a hold of me. Call me, let me know. He went to one meeting, and then we heard that he was stepping down. So hes been replaced by mary fischer, who electrified the Republican Convention by talking about the compassion and the concern that we feel. It was a beautiful moment and i think shell duo firstclass job on that commission. So, i think the appeal is, yes, we care. And the other thing is part of aids, its one of the few diseases were behavior matters. And i once called on somebody, well, change your behavior. Is the behavior youre using prone to cause aides, change the behavior. The next thing i know, one of these act up groups is bush ought to change his behavior. You cant talk about it rationally. The extremes are hurting the aids cause. To go into a catholic mass in a beautiful cathedral in new york under the cause of helping in aids and start throwing condoms around in the mass, im sorry, i think it sets back the cause. We cannot move to the extreme. Weve got to care, weve got to continue everything we can at the federal level and the local level. Barbara, i think is doing a superb job. Destroying the myth about aids and all of us are in this fight together, all of us care, do not go to the extreme. [applause] ,. ,. , id like one thing if i listen to do the job are trying to get the fda to get exactly where we are, and i would really focus on lets get these things. Out if youre going to die, you have to go through this tenyear cycle the fda goes to on you dogs. Believe me, people are more than willing to take that risk, and we could be moving out to the human population that we are in some of these new drugs. I think we can expedite the problem later. If we go back to the racial divisiveness, in our country there was a judge, no senators ought to be hanging in chains for what they did there. Second thing, you know how many times you arrive when you talk to the whole country . Let me to say this, if you hate people i dont want you floating. Thats how strongly i feel about it. Senator clinton, one minute. Over 150,000 americans have died of aids, well over 1 million in a corner americans are hiv positive. We need to put one person in charge of the battle against aids, to cut across all the agencies that deal with it. When he took salary to drug approval process. We need to fully fund the name for that wonderful boy, to make sure we are doing everything we can on research and treatment. And the president should lead a National Effort to change behavior, to keep our children alive, in the schools, responsible behavior. To keep people alive, this is a matter of life and death. Ive worked in my state to reduce teen pregnancy and illness among children. And i know its tough, the reason Magic Johnson resigned from the aids commission is because the statement you heard tonight from mr. Bush, is the longest and best statement hes made about it in public. And i am proud about, i am proud of what we did as a democratic convention, putting through hiv positive people on the platform. And i am proud of the leadership, that im gonna bring to this country, in dealing with the aids crisis. New question for mr. Perez. We have two minutes to answer. And and will ascot. Mr. Perot, even if you everybody say are the guts to take on changes in the most popular the most sacred of the entitlements, and medicare. People say you have an of getting it passed in washington. Since the president isnt alone range, or how in the world can you make some of those unpopular changes . Two ways. Number one, if i get there, it will be a very unusual and historical event [laughs] because the people, not the special interest put me there. I will have a unique mandate. I have said, again and again, and really upsets the establishment in washington, theyre going to inform the people in detail on the issues of electronic town hall, so they really know whats going on. They will want to do whats good for our country. Now all these fellows, with thousand dollar suits and alligator shoes running up and down the halls of congress. They can make policy now, veil foreign lobbying, theyll be over there in the smithsonian, you know. Consider gonna get rid of them, and the congress will be listed to the people in the American People, are willing to have fair, shared sacrifices. Theyre not stupid Like Washington thinks they are. The American People are bright and intelligent, caring, loving people. Who wants a great country for their children and grandchildren. And they will make those sacrifices. So i welcome that challenge, and just watch. Because if the American People sent me they, i will get it done. Now, i have faith in washington, and they have never seen anything happen. This is a town where we say congress stated, Congress Says the white house did it, and im sitting there well who is could be around. They get off by themselves and say nobody did it. And yet, the Cash Register is empty and theyre using our money, the tax payers money, in. It will get results, will get it done. Governor one, minute. Its not quite that simple. And look at the facts, both parties in washington, the president and the congress, have cut medicare. The average Senior Citizen is spending a higher percentage of income on health care today, then they were in 1965, before medicare came in. President got another proposal that required that they pay 400 dollars a year more for the next five years. But if you dont have the guts to control cost, by changing the insurance system, and taking on the bureaucracies and the regulations of health care in the private and public sector, you cant fix this problem. Cost will continue to spiral. And just remember, this folks, a lot of folks on medicare are out there every day, making the choice between food and medicine, poor enough for medicaid, not wealthy enough to buy their medicine. Ive met them people like them, in new hampshire, all over this country. They cannot even buy medicine. So lets be careful when we talk about the cost, lets talk about the insurance of the people that are making a killing, instead of making our people healthy. One minute president bush. Well first id like to clear up something. Because every four years, democrats go around and say hey the public are gonna cut Social Security and medicare. They started at it again. I am the president , that stood up and said, dont mess with Social Security. And im not going to. And we havent. And we are not gonna go after the Social Security recipient. I difference with mr. Perot on that. I dont think we need to touch Social Security. But what we do need to do, though, is control the growth of these mandatory programs, and they say ok theres some pain in that. But governor clinton refuses to touch that. Simply refuses. So what we have to do is control their growth for inflation, let it grow for inflation and the number of new people added, population, and then hold the line. And i believe that is the way you get the deficit down, not by the tax and spend program, that we hear every four years. Whether its your caucus, whoever it is. I just dont believe we ought to do that. So hold the line on Social Security, and put a cap on the growth of mandatory program. New question, it is for governor clinton, two minute answer. Sander well ask. He brought up medicare, i remember in 1965, when ills was pushing it through the congress, to charge against socialized medicine, why. He served within two years later, in 1967. Thats where i met him. The second point though is, that it is now skyrocketing out of control. People want it, we say its going bonkers. Is not the oregon plan apply to medicaid rationing the proper way to go . Even though the federal government last august ruled that it violated the americans with disabilities act, in 1990 . I thought the organ plan should at least been allowed to be tried. Because at least people in oregon were trying to do something. Let me go back to the prior point said. Mr. Bush is trying to run against Lyndon Johnson and jimmy carter, and everybody in the world. But me in this race, i have proposed a managed competition plan for health care. I will say it again, you cannot control Health Care Cost, simply by cutting medicare. Look whats happened. The federal government has cut medicare, and medicaid, in the last three years. States have cut medicaid, weve done it in arkansas, under budget pressure. But what happens, more and more people get on the roles, as property increases. If you dont control the Health Care Cost of the entire system, you cannot get control of it. Look at our program, we set up a National Ceiling on Health Care Cost, how to inflation in population growth, said by health care providers, not by the government. We provided for managed competition, not government bottles, in every state, and we controlled private and public Health Care Cost. Now just a few days ago, a bipartisan commission, of republicans and democrats, more republicans than democrats, said my plan will save the average family 1200 dollars a year, more than the bush plan will for the year 2000. 2. 2 trillion dollars in the next 12 years. 400 billion dollars a year by the end of this decade. Ive got a plan to control health care caused, but you cant just do it by cutting medicare. You have to take on the Insurance Companies, the bureaucracies, and you have to have cost controls, yes. But keep in mind, we are spending 30 more and health care, than any country in the world. Any other country. And yet we have 35 Million People on uninsured, we have no preventive and primary care. The organ plan is a good start, its a federal government if its gonna continue to abandon its responsibilities. If germany can cover everybody and keep cost under inflation, if hawaii can cover 98 of the people at lower Health Care Costs in the rest of us. If minister new york can do, it with two thirds of the cost in the rest of us. American can do it too, im tired of being told we cant, i say we can, we can do better and we must. [applause] president bush, one minute. I dont have time in 30 seconds or whatever a minute to talk about our reform plan. Are gonna make some sense, but its easy to dismiss the concerns of the disabled. As president , i have to be sure that those waivers, which were approving all over the place, are covered under the law. Maybe we can work it out, but the americans for disabilities act, talking about sound and sensible civil rights legislation, was the foremost piece of legislation passed in modern times. So we do have something more than a technical problem. Governor clinton kicked off the things, hes going to take on Insurance Companies and bureaucracies. He failed to take on somebody else, the malpractice suit people. Those who bring these lawsuits against these frivolous trial lawyers who are running the costs of many carroll care up 25 to 50 billion. He refuses to put anything, controls, on these crazy lawsuits. If you want to help somebody, dont run the costs up by making doctors have to have five or six tests were one would do for fear of being sued. Or have somebody come along the highway not to stop to pick up again help him because hes afraid of a trial lawyer will come along into him. Were suing each other too much and caring for each other too little. [applause] mr. Perot, one minute. We got the most Expensive Health care system in the world. It ranks behind 15 other nations when we come to life expectancy, and 22 other nations when we come to infant mortality. So we dont have the best. Pretty simple, folks. If you are paying more and you dont have the best, if you all else fails, go copy the people who have the best and who spend less, right . Well, we can do better than that. Again, weve got plans lying all over the place in washington. Nobody ever implementing them. Now, im back to square one. If you want to stop talking about it and do it, then ill be glad to go up there and will get it done. But if you want to just keep the music going, just a traditional this next time around, and four years from now youll have everybody blaming everybody else for about health care system. Talk is cheap, words are plentiful, deeds are precious. Lets get on with it. [applause] thats exactly what we are going to do. That was, in fact, the final question and answer. We are now going to move to closing statements. Each candidate will have up to two minutes. The order, remember, was determined by a drawing. And mr. Perez, you are first. Well, its been a privilege to be able to talk to the American People tonight. I make no bones about it. I love this country. I love the principle its founded on. I love the people here. I dont like to see the countrys principles violated. I dont like to see the people in a deteriorating economy and in a deteriorating country because our government has lost touch with the people. The people in washington are good people, we just have a bad system. Weve got to change the system. Its time to do it because we have run up so much debt the time is no longer our friend. Weve got to put our house in order. When you go to bed tonight, look at your children. Think of their dreams. Think of your dreams as a child and ask yourself, isnt it time to stop talking about it . Isnt it time to stop creating images . Isnt it time to do it . Arent you sick of being treated like an on programs robot . Every four years, they send you all kinds of messages to tell you how to vote and then go back to business as usual. They told you at the tax and budget summit that if you agreed to a tax increase, we could balance the budget. They didnt tell you that that same year the increased spending a dollar 83 cents for every dollar we increased taxes. Thats washington in a nutshell right there. In the final analysis, im doing this for your children, when you look at them tonight. Theres another group that i feel very close to, and these are the men and women who have fought on the battlefield, the children, the families of the ones who died, and the people who left parts of their bodies over there. I never ask you to do anything for me, but i owe you this, and im doing it for you. And i cant tell you what it means to me at these rallies when i see you and you come up and the look in your eyes, and i know how you feel and i know and you know how i feel. And then i think of the older people who are retired. They grew up in the depression. They fought and won world war ii. We owe you that we can never repay you. And the greatest repayment i can never give is to recreate the American Dream for your children and grandchildren. Ill give it everything i have, if you want me to do it. [applause] governor clinton, your closing statement. Id like to thank the people of st. Louis and Washington University, a president ial Debate Commission and all those who made this night possible. And id like to thank those of you who are watching. Most of all, id like to thank all of you who have touched me in some way over this last year. All the thousands of you whom ive seen. Id like to thank the computer executives and electronics executives in silicon valley, two thirds of whom are republicans who said they wanted to sign on to a change to create a new america. Id like to thank the hundreds of executives who came to chicago, a third of the republicans, who said they wanted to change. Id like to thank the people who started with mr. Perot whove come on to help our campaign. Id like to thank all the folks around america that no one ever knows about, the woman that was holding the aids bought baby she had opted in cedar rapids, iowa who asked me to do something more for adoption. The woman who stopped along the road in wisconsin and wept because her husband had lost his job after 27 years. All the people who are having a tough time and the people who are winning, what do you know how desperately we need to change. This debate tonight has made Crystal Clear a challenge that is as old as america, the choice between hope and fear, change or more of the same, the courage to move into a new tomorrow or little or to listen to the crowd who says things could be worse. Mr. Bush has said some very compelling things tonight that dont quite square with the record. He was president for three years before he proposed to Health Care Plan that still hasnt been sent to congress and total. Three years before an economic plan and he still didnt say tonight that that tax bill he vetoed raise taxes only on the rich and gave the rest of you a break, but he vetoed it anyway. I offer a new direction. Invest in american jobs, american education, control Health Care Costs, bring this country together again. I want the future of this country to be as bright and brilliant as it passed, and it can be if we have the courage to change. [applause] president bush, your closing statement. Let me tell you a little what its like to be president. In the oval office, you cant predict what kind of crisis is going to come up. You have to make tough calls. You cant be on one hand this way and one hand another. You cant take different positions on these difficult issues. And then you need a philosophical, i kill it i call it a philosophical underpinning. Mine for Foreign Affairs is democracy and freedom, and look at the dramatic changes around the world. The cold war is over. The soviet union is no more and were working with democratic country. All in, hungry, czechoslovakia, the baltics are free. Take a look at the middle east. We had to stand up against a tyrant. The United States came together as we havent and many, many years, and we kicked this man out of kuwait. And in the process, as a result of that will and that decision and that toughness, we now have ancient enemies taking talking peace in the middle east. Nobody wouldve dreamed it possible. And i think the biggest dividend of making these tough calls is the fact that we are less afraid of nuclear war. Every parent out there has much less worry that their kids are going to be faced with nuclear holocaust. All this is good. On the domestic side, what we must do is have changed that empowers people, not change for the sake of change, tax and spend. We dont need to do that anymore. What we need to do is empower people. We need to invest in and save. We need to do better in education. We need to do better in job retraining. We need to expand our exports, and theyre going very, very well, indeed. And we need to strengthen the american family. I hope, as president , that ive earned your trust. Ive admitted it when i make a mistake, but then i go on and help try to solve the problems. I hope i earn your trust because a lot of being president is about trust and character. And i ask for your support for four more years to finish this job. Thank you, very very much. [applause] dont go away yet. I just want to thank the three panelists and thanked the three candidates for participating. President bush, governor clinton and mr. Perot. They will appear again together on october 15th and again on october 19th. And next tuesday, there will be a debate among the three candidates for vice president. And for now, from Washington University in st. Louis, missouri, im jim lehrer. Thank you and goodnight. [applause] the second 1992 president ial eb