Americans are watching on television as well. San francisco was the sight of the signing of the american charter. It is an appropriate place to hold this debate, the subject of which is foreign and defense issues. The questioners tonight are max frankel, henry trewhitt, and richard valeriani, Diplomatic Correspondent of nbc news. Rules are the same for the first debate. Questions will be alternated between candidates. Governor carter will take the first question. Each question sequence will be as follows. The question will be asked and the candidate will have three minutes to answer. His opponent will have two minutes to respond. Prior to the response the questioner may ask a followup question to clarify with up to two minutes to reply. Each candidate will have three minutes for a closing statement at the end. President ford and governor carter do not have it prepared remarks with them this evening but they may take notes during the debate and refer to them. Mr. Frankel, you have the first question for governor carter. Since the democrats last ran our Foreign Policy, the country has been relieved of the vietnam agony and the military draft. We have started arms control negotiations with the russians, we have opened relations with china, we have regained influence with the arabs without deserting israel. Maybe now we have even begun the process of the peaceful change in africa. You have objected in this campaign to the style with which much of this was done. Do you really have a quarrel with this republican record . Would you not have done any of those things . Gov. Carter i think this Republican Administration has been all style and spectacle and no substance. We have a chance tonight to talk about leadership, the character of our country and a vision of the future. In every one of these instances, the Ford Administration has failed and i hope tonight that mr. Ford will have a chance to discuss the reasons for those failures. Our country is not strong anymore. We are not respected anymore. We can only be strong overseas if we are strong at home. When i become president we will be strong in those areas and in defense with a defense capabilities second to none. We have ignored or excluded the American People in congress from participation in the shaping of our Foreign Policy. It has been one of secrecy and seclusion. We have a chance to become now contrary to our longstanding beliefs and principles, the Arms Merchant of the entire world. We try to buy success from our enemies and at the same time we have excluded from the process the normal friendships of our allies. In addition to that we have become fearful to compete with the soviet union. The soviet union has been getting what they want. We have not known what we wanted. About defense we have got to be a nation blessed with the defense capability that is efficient, tough, wellorganized, focused, fighting capability, the ability to fight if necessary is the best way to avoid the chance for a fight. Mr. Ford, mr. Kissinger have continued on with policies from richard nixon. Even the republican platform has criticized the lack of leadership and they have criticized the Foreign Policy of this administration. I agree with the republican i will say this in crossing dust and closing. Mr. Kissinger has been the president of this country. Mr. Ford has shown an absence of leadership, an absence of a grasp of what this country does and what it ought to be. That is one of the major issues of this campaign of 1976. President ford, would you like to respond . President ford governor carter is speaking and broad generalities. Governor carter, in november of 1975 indicated he wanted to cut the Defense Budget by 15 billion. A few months later he said he wanted to cut the Defense Budget by eight or 9 billion and more recently he talks about cutting 5 billion or 7 billion. There is no way you can be strong militarily and have those reductions in our military appropriation. Let me tell you a little story. A few days later, he came back and said we will have to cut military personnel by 250,000. Jobs in america by 100,000. Ourould have to stretch out aircraft procurement. We would have to reduce our Naval Construction program. We would have to reduce the by 8 . H and development we would have to close 20 military bases in the United States immediately. Thats the kind of Defense Program the system carter wants. Let me tell you great on the shoulder straight from the shoulder. Negotiate with weakness and the kind of Defense Program mr. Carter wants will mean a poor negotiating position. A question for president ford. My question is the other side of the coin from mr. Frankels. We have had Foreign Policy based on containment communism. We lost the war in vietnam. Communists have come to power by peaceful means in italy. Relations have improved with the soviet union in recent months. What do you do about cases such as italy . Does this mean we are moving back toward an old cold war relationship with the soviet union . I do not believe we should move towards a cold war relationship. I think it is in the best interest of the United States and the world as a whole that we go back to the soviet union. I believe the United States has had many successes in recent years and recent months as far as the communist movement is concerned. We have been successful in portugal, where a year ago it looked like there was a very the communistsy would take over in portugal. It didnt happen. We have a democracy in portugal today. , i should saygo maybe two years ago, the soviet union looked like they had continued strength in the middle east. , the soviet union is weaker in the middle east than they have been in many, many years. The soviet Union Relationship is at a low level. The soviet Union Relationship with area is at a very low point with syria is at a very low point. The United States today is at a peak and its influence and power in the middle east. But lets turn to the Southern African operations going on. The United States of america took the initiative in Southern Africa. We wanted to end the bloodshed in Southern Africa. We wanted to have the right to selfdetermination, we wanted to with the fullrule protection of the rights of the minority. We want to preserve human dignity. We have taken the initiative and the United States is trusted by the frontline nations and the United States is trusted by the other elements in Southern Africa. United states policy has been one of progress and success and i believe rather than talking about soviet progress we can talk about american successes. May i make an observation . I dont believe it is in the best interest of the United States to have a communist nation in nato. Has indicated he would look with sympathy at a communist government in nato. Am totally opposed to it gov. Carter i have never advocated for a communist government and nato. I believe this is an instance for deliberate distortion and this has occurred also for the defense. I would never advocate any cut in the Defense Budget. Mr. Ford has made a political football out of the Defense Budget. About year ago he cut the into after he fired jamess lessons are, the political heat got so great he added that 3 billion. When Ronald Reagan dubya with the texas primary election, he added another 1. 5 billion. s own office of management and budget testified he had a 3 billion cut added to the defense under pressure from the pentagon. Obviously this is another indication of trying to use the Defense Budget for political purposes, which he is trying to do tonight. We did not go in until right , similar toection what has taken place in 1972. The opposition weakened our position in nato. We stuck to the portugal initiatives much longer. A question for governor carter. Governor carter, much of what the United States does abroad is done in the interest of the national interest. And in that connection, given that you take some pride in being a washington outsider, would it be appropriate to tell your keycan voters positions, such as secretary of state, secretary of defense, National Affairs advisor of the white house . Gov. Carter im met with you name my cabinet before i get elected. Ive got a ways to go before i do that. Naval to the u. S. Academy. Extensively. Ed i have traveled the last 21 , i have talked to them and i have listened and i have seen firsthand in a very vivid way the deep hurt that has come in the aftermath of vietnam and cambodia, angola, watergate. Were so proud of, the strength of our country, its integrity, the representation in Foreign Affairs has been gone and the American People and the congress have been excluded. I have been one who loves my nation as many to and i believe there is no limit on what we can be in the future if we can future. Resources in the every time we have made a serious mistake in Foreign Affairs, it is because the American People have then excluded. If we can find the good judgment , we canmerican people be proud instead of ashamed. I will not exclude the American People. This is what it takes to have a sound Foreign Policy. And to involve the American People in the congress. Every time mr. Ford speaks from a position of secrecy in negotiations and treaties that have been pursued and achieved, ignoring human rights, we are weak and the rest of the world knows it. No one has this my background ownould restore our position in the world. How will you bring the American People into decisionmaking . What does that mean . First of all, im conducting decisionmaking process im not conducting the decisionmaking process in syria in secret. We have instances like in vietnam that have been revealed later on. Rhodesia t of they do not know what what that is. It is a strong support. We have the fireside chat which is an interval part of the administration of franklin roosevelt. When harry truman was president he was not afraid of having a strong secretary of defense. But he also made sure there was bipartisan support. Before our nation made a secret , we were sure we had the backing of not only the secretary of state, but the people. This is the responsibility of the people and i think its very damaging for mr. Ford to have turned this over to the secretary of state. You have the response. Pres. Ford governor carter complains about secrecy and yet he is quoted as saying in the attempt to find a solution in the middle east that he would hold unpublicized meetings with the soviet union. Let me talk about what we have done to avoid secrecy in the administration. Im proud to say not a single soldier hasisraeli lost his life since the signing. F the sinai agreement submittede that i this to the United States, i submitted every single document, it was the most complete documentation by any president of any agreement signed on behalf of the United States. As far as meeting with the i haves concerned averaged better than one meeting a month. The secretary of state has appeared in these several years that he has been the secretary before 80 Different Committee hearings in the house and in the senate. The secretary of state has made better than 50 speeches explaining american foreignpolicy. I have made myself at least 10 speeches in various parts of the country where i have discussed with the American People defense and Foreign Policy. Present ford. President ford. S. Ford shows they used to brad back end nikitaff khrushchevs day that they would get us . France and italy are flirting with communism. We have recognized up permanent a permit communist regime in east germany. We have signed an agreement in helsinki that the russians have dominance and Eastern Europe. We bailed out soviet agriculture , we have given them large loans, access to our best technology and of the senate had with the jackson amendment, maybe even larger loans. Is that what you call a twoway street . Pres. Ford we have negotiated with the soviet union from a position of strength. Let me cite several examples. Shortly after i became president in december of 1974, i met with vladivostok and we agreed to a mutual cap on the launchers, which means the soviet union, if that becomes a permanent agreement, will have in their reduction launchers that they now have or plan to have. I negotiated that with mr. Thehnev, the limitations on ing of their ballistic missiles, which is the first time any president has achieved s. E cap on launchers or mirv it seems to me that we can go from there to grain sales. Grain sales have been a benefit to american agriculture. We have achieved of five and three quarter your sale of a minimum of 6 Million Metric Tons which means they have already times about 4 million this year and are bound to buy another 2 million tons in order in theseull production have helped us we turn to helsinki , 35 nations signed an agreement including the secretary of state. I cant under any circumstances believe that his holiness, the pope, would agree by signing that agreement that the 35 nations have turned over to the warsaw pact nations the domination of Eastern Europe. It just isnt true. If mr. Carter alleges that his he isss is on that totally inaccurate. What has been accomplished by the helsinki agreement . Number one, we have an agreement where they notify us, we notified them of any military maneuvers. There is no soviet domination of Eastern Europe and they never will be under a Ford Administration. Did i understand you to say and they are not using this making sure with their troops it is a communist zone whereas on our side of the line i dont believe that they consider themselves dominated by the soviet union. I dont believe the romanians consider themselves dominated by the soviet union. I do not believe the polls sonsider themselves pole consider themselves dominated by the soviet union. Each of those countries is autonomous. The United States does not they are under the domination of the soviet union. As a matter of fact, i have , anded poland, yugoslavia romania to make certain that that the people of the United States are their independence, to their autonomy and to their freedom. Governor carter . Gov. Carter i am not criticizing his holiness, the pope. The fact is there has been secrecy around the administration. In the case of the helsinki is a right ofre people to migrate, for families free, Radio Free Europe is being jammed. We have also seen a very serious document thathe mr. Ford has just endorsed which suggests linkage and i would convinceee him americans that they do not live under the domination of the soviet union. We also have seen mr. Ford exclude himself he has not had a tough discriminate examination. Weakness in a yielding to pressure. Assemble thissee, freedom around the world, of alexander solzhenitsyn. He has yielded and permitted a boycott of american businesses to trade with israel who americans use. His own secretary of congress had to be subpoenaed to reveal the names of those in this boycott. They did not volunteer this information. The last thing i would like to say is this. This grain deal with the soviet union in 1972 was terrible and he made up with it with three embargoes. That is not a way to run foreignpolicy. Mr. Carter. Up onould like to pick your question of the need for and foreignlism affairs. Would you be willing to risk it human rights in iran and saudi arabia. I think matter of fact you have perhaps answered this, but would you withhold grain from the soviet union . Gov. Carter i would never single out food as a trade embargo item. To impose an embargo it would include oil. I would consider this not military, but an economic declaration of war. I would not ship the arab country anything no weapons, no spare parts, no oil, no nothing. I would not single out just to read another thing i can say is this. In international trade, we have become an Arms Merchant of the world. When this Republican Administration came into office, we were shipping about 1 billion of oil overseas. At now theres 10 to 12 billion of the shift in emphasis has been very disturbing. One of the last democratic 60 of allions, weapons he went into the middle east were for israel. Nowadays sunday 5 were before. Now its 60 and this does not include iran. Israel. Goes to this is a deviation from idealism. Its a deviation from our commitments you major allies in majorddle east two allies in the middle east. This is a deviation from the pressure on the oil issue and its a tremendous indication that under the Ford Administration