The video. Jason ladies and gentlemen, welcome. I am jason from the National World war ii museums institute for the study of war and democracy. We appreciate you joining us today for this webinar on the nazi murder of the disabled. And the 1945 trial. We are so fortunate to have as our special guest today dr. Patricia haber rice from the United StatesHolocaust Memorial museum in washington, d. C. I want to give a little bit of background about dr. Rice. She is director of the division of the Senior Historian at the jack joseph and morton Mendel Center of holocaust studies. She is an expert of the nazi on the victims of nazi annihilation policies and effort s to bring the nazi perpetrators to justice after world war ii. She has a lot of publications. So i will just mention a small number of those for you today. First is atrocities on trial, historical perspectives on the politics of prosecuting war crimes, the 2008 volume she coedited with her colleague at the Holocaust Museum. I would like to mention to you especially about this volume, she writes a contribution piece entitled early war postwar justice in the american zone, the murder factory trial, which we will get to in the second half of our discussion today. She has also contributed to the 2008 volume nazi crimes under the law. One of the kind of pathbreaking researchers on the topic we are going to cover today. A volume titled children during the holocaust, part of her series on holocaust horses in a sources in context, a very important volume of source material for educators, and finally from 2019, war and child in the era of two world wars. Patricia, welcome to our webinar today. It is so great to have you here. This is a topic that obviously a lot of our viewers are just generally familiar with. They certainly know about the nazi persecution and murder of people with mental and physical disabilities, but, obviously, when you get beyond that, there is a lot that is unfamiliar to us, a lot of the detail we just do not know as well as we should, so we feel very fortunate to have you here with us today to talk through what happened with this program, how many, what kinds of people were caught up in it in the attempts and the attempts to bring perpetrators connected to the program to justice after the war. I thought we would jump right in , patricia, and to start out with a very basic question for our viewers about your own background on this topic. It is a very difficult topic, a very painful topic to research. And i think people would be curious about how you became interested in researching this program that the nazi regime implemented during world war ii. Patricia good morning, jason. It is an honor and pleasure to be here with your viewers and your audience this morning. This afternoon in washington, d. C. , for us, but this book was actually my jumping off part, my jumping off place into the history of the Euthanasia Program. It was the subject of my masters thesis. At the time i was interested in legal history. And in early postwar trials. That this time the topic of that , Euthanasia Program was not well known. The first books on euthanasia had just come out in 1985 in german, so at the time i was writing this, which was about 1986, 1987, there was almost nothing about this in english. My immediate interest and i have been working on it ever since. Jason it is really remarkable , patricia, that you were certainly one of the first researchers in the anglophone world, in the englishspeaking world, to be working on this. I think about when i was in graduate school and the books we all had to read on this program, like the origins of nazi genocide, and those are a decade later from what you are were working on. All the more reason we are so grateful you could join us. Why dont we talk about this program, which is generally known as the t4 program. If you could tell us about the nazi regimes decision in 1939 to secretly murder people with mental and physical disabilities , and tell us which individuals specifically were targeted as part of this program. Patricia yes. What is interesting is this socalled Euthanasia Program is also known as operation t4, one of the nazis very radical policies to have what they would describe it to restore the racial integrity of the german nation, to cleanse the race. They did this by murdering European Jews during the holocaust, but one of their sort of biological enemies that they really focused on in their own community were people they ily ill,ereditary dai unworthy of life. Today we would call these individuals persons with mental disabilities, with intellectual disabilities, or physical disabilities. The nazis believed that these individuals placed both the genetic that is important, a genetic as well as a financial burden on society and the state. And at the same time, according to the nazis, they made no significant contribution to society. So they are targeting institutionalized patients in germany and austria. And in those particularly annexed by the germans, the czech republic. This Euthanasia Program, you see quotations around this term, because it is not euthanasia in terms of a mercy death, which is part of a biomedical debate today, this is a cynical program of mass murder. It is the regimes First Program of mass murder carried out against its own citizens. The overwhelming number of people who died in the Euthanasia Program were german arians, nonjews. This program was before the holocaust by about two years. And just to give you a little background, beginning in october men we will meet in a moment, they initiated a child Euthanasia Program, which murdered over 10,000 disabled children during the war years through starvation and overdoses of medication. And by 1940, you have an adult january killian program that parallels that murder of german infants toddlers, and juveniles. , this was codenamed operation t4. Here you see the villa, that was used as a nerve center for the Euthanasia Program. Thishose of you who know, villa was hit in the days of world war ii and stood right about where the berlin philharmonic stands now. They took the street address for and they used it to create the codename for the organization, which is operation t4. Basically, what the operation does is to remove individuals from their home facility to eventually one of six centralized killing centers throughout germany and austria. And within hours of their patients are just gassed. You see the gas station as it was restored. It was restored after the war at the memorial site. They are gassed with Carbon Monoxide in gas chambers that look like showers. They are removed and their bodies are burned in crematoriums. About 70,000 patients were murdered between january 1940 and august 1941, in this gassing phase of the Euthanasia Program. The program stops for about a year between january of 1941 and 1942. Januarybut it begins again in august of 1942 in places like hadamar, and continues to the end of the war. And about 250,000 institutionalized patients died as a result of the Euthanasia Program. Jason thank you for that overview. There is a lot for our viewers to deal with. And that this is a program really that covers most of the war, other than this one year that you mention, which we will discuss as well. But i thought we would talk about hadamar and some of the key perpetrators that you alluded to. The one that you mentioned, hadamar, was one of six killing centers in the third reich. These killing centers were supervised by men with the last name of b, if that helps us remember some of them. You mentioned a couple of them already. Theip belieber bueller, director of hitlers private chancellery, hitlers attending physician, and much of the day to day management of the program was done by victor brock. Often when we look at these perpetrators, i think this is largely affected by the trial of adolf ikeman. Which have been to later. Into not directly tied this program but his trial , shaped the way we think a lot of this program. The term death murderer gets used for many men involved with either the t4 program or the genocide of the jews. So, if you can tell us about these perpetrators, and if you think the term death murderer is adequate for understanding them or not. Patricia that is a good definition for what these individuals did. Lets take a look at who these men were. This is philip, a very interesting photograph. It is a color photograph, which you do not usually see in this particular era. Philip bouhler is the man in the dark uniform. As you said he is the director , of the chancellery, and he manages hitlers affairs. It is off the radar screen of most germans, as a small podium of organization. It is a perfect machine for this operation. Next we have dr. Carl brandt. Letter foramed in a the Euthanasia Program. And here you see him serving his place at the nuremberg doctors trial in 1946. He was, of course, the attending physician for hitlers. Brock victor brock. ,he is at his desk in 1940. He is basically what you might call a man with no medical training who runs the daily operations of the t4, t4 office manager. And in these men were responsible for the killing program. Putting it into operation,. Anaging from their desks they are responsible for orchestrating the killing process. They do not do any actually killing. And the trials for these kind of men are very hard to come by, especially in early war crime trials. We tend to see this later in the 1960s. You name the adolf eiseman trial as a perfect example, who never killed anybody personally as far as we know of, but operated these enormous, important killing operations from their offices. These perpetrators i just talked about, they carefully organized and implemented the Euthanasia Program, but the links to the organization that require investigation, tenacious prosecution. So they literally often got away with murder some of these t4 , perpetrators. Jason thank you. Hey are such a frightening kind of perpetrator to deal with. They are legally, but as far as intellectually people to come to terms with about these individuals, literally the paper that they push involved the deaths of thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of individuals. And we will obviously hear more about these three men as we work through. You have already alluded to the phases of this program, this t4 program. If we could kind of distinguish these a little bit. The first one lasted from january 1940 until late august, 1941. Describe r. G. For our chief describe example hadamar, what happened , to victims during this first phase . People try to understand, how did this actually take place . How did this work . Obviously we have learned a lot thanks to your research, and how this actually worked for the victims. Patricia of course. Hadamar was one of the last of the six established killing centers. It is often cited as the most famous. You cannot tell from this photograph, but it actually set above the town of hadamar. Hadamar. In the 10 short months from january to august of 1941 when it was in operation, the staff gassed 10,072 mentally and physically disabled individuals. Before that, halt in the Euthanasia Program takes place. We will talk about that in just a little while. But patients were simply brought to hadamar from their home institutions. More often, they went through facilities, these kinds of way stations that disguised where the patients were actually going. That was to keep the relatives of victims, agencies like insurance agencies government , agencies that track these individuals, their positions and so on from being able to follow where their patients went. Patients were usually brought from these facilities to hadamar. They come in boxes of about 80 to 100 every day, except for sunday. The buses run through the town, hadamar, where they are seen by the local population. They go up to the hill in the facility. They are given a very brief examination that lulls them into a sense of security. It is a very antichamber of the gas chamber. And often the doctors are trying to give a sense that this is a medical procedure kind of like , mental and the rest. But they are also looking for a diagnosis that they might be able to use. The patients are gassed, it in the gas chamber made to look like showers. And then they are cremated. The physicians sign death certificates giving a cause of death. And then the relatives of these victims receive the death certificate, as well as an urn with ashes on the floor of the crematorium. So it is a grisly business. Horrifying when you look at the details of this, how systematic, how thoughtful it is. A kind of bureaucratic process, and yet one so full of ideological fervor, the nazis commitment to purging people, in this case murdering, purging as in mass murder, tens of thousands of the most vulnerable citizens of germany and greater germany during these years. How did the perpetrators try to keep this secret . The followup that people always want to know, who have studied this a bit, is how did the public come to learn something about the fact that this program was in place and operating . Patricia yes, part of the effort to keep this kind of on track and off the radar screen to the public involved using fictitious dates and causes of death and giving the impression to relatives and to the insurance agencies, by the way germany is a welfare state that the bulk of these patients are actually being paid for, their care, by the german , the publicth health administration. So the relatives of the victims receive these fictitious death certificates, and they are trying to convey the impression that these patients have died of natural causes. But very soon this seeker these becomes secret operation becomes for many reasons an open secret. Here you will see probably a better photograph of that town. You can see the smoking crematorium. The first access the public add had to these programs usually happened around the places of the euthanasia sites themselves. As you can see, hadamar was perched above the agricultural town, and these are all farmers. I am a nice midwestern girl from a farm town in illinois, and i can tell you that when you burn flesh, it has a peculiar smell. And these are all farmers in this community. And at a certain point, they are murdering and burning so many patients that they claimed to the local Agricultural Chamber that the ashes from the crematorium are ruining their crops. The relatives of the victims very often find out when they receive very strange diagnoses that happened. For example, someone might die of appendicitis. That is the classic case. And their appendix has been removed several years ago, or they receive something for a 17yearold saying this person has died of old age. You see the slipups occur and it gives clues to relatives that things are not quite right. We know that lawyers in the legal profession, most German Government agencies were not briefed until relatively late about this secret program. So it is a secret from them, too. You see attorneys trying to figure out on behalf of families why their loved one has disappeared and they are told to shut down. People are finding out various parts of the great find that something strange is going on. I should also point out that Church Officials are some of the early detectors of this program. People like the bishop of finds out that patients are being removed from a catholic institution. He is also receiving a lot of dispensation requests from relatives whose relatives have been cremated. Catholics at the time could not be cremated. This is how a lot of catholic figures found out that something strange was happening. Publicalso know that the , may be the public does not understand exactly every detail, but it is very clear that a large segment of the population knows something is afoot. When the germans, when the Nazi Administration tries to mount a tv campaign to screen the countrys inhabitants for tuberculosis, lots of people do not show up because they actually fear that they will be pulled intos this killing process. At this very crucial time during justar, germany has invaded the soviet union in june 1941. Hitler calls bouhler personally and tells him to halt the program. Jason this is such an important point for people who studied at this ask questions about the popular pressure, Popular Resistance to the regime. Did the regime ever fear public pressure, public opposition . And so this case that you are talking about here, where everyday people begin to figure something out, and then the role that the church plays, you mentioned the bishop this is always something that people have to factor in when they are thinking about should there be resistance or not . Did people actually defy the regime or challenge the regime. This is a very interesting case. You noted already that hitlers orders a halt to adults in august of 1941, and then a year later the regime resumes the murder of adults with disabilities. Could you Say Something about the second phase of the t4 program, which goes into late in the war and how it differed from the first phase . Patricia this is a very interesting part of the Euthanasia Program. It is not what you see until recently, a lot of books on this subject. There is Less Research done on this part of the Euthanasia Program. This halt lasts 19411942. It is a time when the planners of these programs are trying to knock out the kinks and make the program or covered. More covert. By the way, this is a time at which the final solution of the europe is going on. Not only the shootings in the soviet union, but the first killing centers begin guessing assing jews. This is a really interesting time where there is a connection between the first killing operation and the final solution. While these facilities remain dormant, many euthanasia people were sent to other places. These killing centers murdered 925,000 jews, almost as many as at auschwitz. And in the key personnel there are actually t4 staff. And are euthanasia operatives, who have been so used to k