Transcripts For CSPAN3 The Contenders Eugene V. Debs 20240712

Us throughout the program tonight. His book is call, its been 85 since debs died. Why do we care about him . Debs is one of the labor leaders at a crucial time and a conflict between labor and capital, but more importantly, he was the central figure in the socialist movement at a time when it was a viable, growing and important part of the american political culture. So is he interesting as a snapshot in time or do you think he has a lasting legacy, do you think . Like many thirdparty candidates he and his fellow socialists managed to move the conversation in very important directions that have affected the development of american democracy ever since. So in that regard he is of his time, but he has also had a long impact on us, as well. We will have time to delve into some of the elections more deeply later on, but of the five bids he made for the white house, are any particularly significant . Two for very different reasons. The 1912 bid represents the high watermark of socialism where he got about 6 of the vote. The quite different election is 1920 where he was imprisoned in the atlanta penitentiary and got a million votes also while running in prison. We will learn about both of those in his other bids for the white house as the 90minute program the contenders are people who made an attempt at the white house and failed, but had an effect on political and American History. We are live tonight from the debs house and museum in terre haute, indiana. Its on the campus of Indiana State University. His wife kate lived here for years after he died. Well show you more of the house as we continue here. The top floor of this house is an interesting mural and the mural throughout the entire top floor depicts the year of debs public life and throughout our program we will be showing you aspects of that art work to help illustrate eugene v. Debs story. Right now let me introduce you to our second guest in the program. She is joining us from the second floor in what was debs bedroom. Now it is a museum room with a lot of artifacts and e lisa philips is a history professor at Indiana State University and a specialist in history. Thanks so much for being with us. Your thoughts on debs significance to the american story . Like earnernest said, it has do with his activity in labor unions and the American Railway union and the socialist party as well and he has had a lasting effect on many of the laws that were passed that were a result of his activism, some of which we still enjoy and you can tell about his time period throughout the labor union, as well. Lisa phillips will be showing us the artifacts from time to time and she is also part of the foundation and tell me about the work of the foundation and why youre involved in it. The Debs Foundation seeks to keep the debs legacy alive and what it hopes to do is to promote not only the museum, but the policies that debs promoted which is social justice and equality and the rights of workers generally so it continues to live through the spirit of his mission. As we turn to your expertise in understanding what you show case here, can you tell me a little bit about how this house is financed and functions and whose care its under. Its paid for by the Debs Foundation and its paid for by dr. Charles king and karen brown. Both of whom are here in terre haute and run the museum on a daily basis. As we always do, we will open up the phone lines and involve you on the discussion and very interested to hear about your discussion about the period in American History that he represents. Let me ask you a little bit about what made him a success at what he did it. Many people remember him most of all as a dynamic speaker. This is an era of wonderful stump speakers who could fill two and three hours of the speech. Debs was the best in that genre and in fact so good that he could afford to charge a modest admission for his audience and thats how they funded the socialist campaigns in many cases and he was just a very charismatic and had the ability. I think he began as a victorian speaker and as he became more comfortable over the years he had a more modern, impromptu style that had a tremendous impact on his audience. Over your shoulders is debs library and my understanding is that he dropped out of school at age 14. Im curious about his extensive lean ra library and how he educated himself. He was very much selftaught and he began as a working in the Railroad Union and was very interested in the literature there and he worked for a while as a grocery clerk in town and always wanted to get more education and had to rely on doing it on his own. Lisa phillips, how did terre haute shape eugene debs . In many ways. Mostly through his upbringing here when he was a young man, a boy and a young man and he always harkened back to the terre haute of his youth and he thought and invoked all of the time in terms of the harmonious relationships that developed in old terre haute between everybody he said could aspire to do something good in their lives whether youd be a business owner, whether youre a worker, but everybody had the chance he always said to do something and to aspire to improve their lives and thats what he held in the most regard in terms of his upbringing. When you walk around the house, he was interested in politics from an early age. He made bid for the clerk of this town on the democratic ticket. His early roots, then, were in a twoparty system. Can you talk about that . I can say a little bit which is to say that he ran on the democrat dechlic party ticket when he believed that he could form a relationship between multiple groups of people, whether they be Business Owners, workers and he believed in the party system in that regard. It wasnt until later in the 1880s and 1890s that he felt like the party system through the democrats and the republicans werent working through the best interest of all of the people combined. When he sought the white house, what was his intention . Did he ever really think that he could win . He said very clearly that he had no intention of ever winning. Lincoln steffens interviewed him in 1908 and asked what would it be like if he was president , if the party gets close to winning id be the last person who wanted the job or put into the job. He thought of himself more of an evangelist for the job and he believed very much in democracy, but he was more interested in using the campaigns in order to generate interest among workers, to develop class consciousness, to sort of deliver his message powerfully every four years. Give us a snapshot of the america that he was dissatisfied with. It was an enormous concentration of capital and many people were worried about the labor problem. Many workers felt in the face of this rapid industrialization that their skills were less valuable and their wages were in the national and International Market where they were getting declining wages and a more difficult work environment, and there was an enormous sense that labor was unhappy and deb said the problem is not labor, the problem is capital and the real problem is not that the workers are unhappy and the root problem is these enormous concentrations of capital are undermining american democracy. Socialism was, of course, on the rise in europe. How was what they were doing here different from what was happening here. It was similar at first. They considered themselves to be internationalists that essentially socialism needed to be a Worldwide Movement and that they expected that they would be. There were challenges in america to convince workers to do that and there was a stronger sense of a working class in europe on which to draw for socialists there. One of the struggles for debs throughout his career was to think of workers that they ought to think of themselves not as democrats or republicans and not on the basis of religious affiliation and to think of themselves as members of a working class. How successful were he and his fellow thinkers of convincing the public . At the height of its popularity, how much ground did they make . If you measure it by debs success, his highwatermark was 1912. He got 6 of the vote. Never any Electoral College votes, right . No, but there was a much broader. Socialists were much more successful at the local level. There were quite a number of socialist mayors and city officials of various kinds and there was a very vibrant, International Socialist society by College Students started by jack lunden. And there was college ferment about socialism and there was a lively press and some of the best journalism from that time period comes out of the socialist press journals like the masses and out of grants village. So socialism was much bigger than counting the votes, i think. And today in congress the United States senator bern sanders of vermont is a socialist, and we talked to him about debs legacy. Lets listen to a bit of what he had to say. A lot of the idea says that he advocated, talked about when people get old there should be social insurance for them and Retirement Benefits for them, well, thats what we call Social Security today and amazingly enough in 2011, there were those same people who hated debs who now want to the destroy Social Security and he believed health care was a right of all people. That battle continues today, but i think it is fair to say that many of the huge advances made during the 30s under president roosevelt, the Great Society under Lyndon Johnson and throughout, those were ideas that people like debs probably brought to the attention, he was the first person to bring to the attention of millions of working people. And lisa phillips, let me ask you to add your perspectives to the america that he saw and was dissatisfied with, and ultimately whether or not he saw himself as antiamerican or wanting to change america. I dont think he saw himself as antiamerican at all. In fact, i think he thought he was advocating through his socialist party a kind of america that he harkened back of one that was more communitycentered and one of not driven by big business. He wasnt antihelp capitalist at all and it wasnt until the advent of corporate, and he felt that there had to be a forprofit movement to bring everyday wages and records down of. Do you have something to add . One of the things that made debs so roud . His argument that was this was a revolutionary country in the first place and the thought of revolution and in his life time he experienced the civil war as a revolution and some of his greatest idols were the abolitionists and his argument was that the country had fought a battle to overthrow chattel slavery and the next step was to overthrow savory, as he called it. Who were his workers . Did he include women in his wom view of it . Did he include people other than whites . Did he conclude immigrants . What was his definition . As one of the First Industrial union leaders, he was mounting a movement on behalf of the working class which he believed everyone who was a worker, who earned wages, which were twothirds of americans by 1890, was a part of, whether they be an immigrant, whether they be black, whether they be women. He saw them as all members of a working class that needed to be uplifted in some way, shape or form. Theres controversy still to this day among historians about whether he did enough on behalf of women and africanamericans and he had some trouble seeing immigrants, especially chinese immigrants and italian immigrants who worked for very low wages and brought them back to their home countries, as a part of the same american working class that was driving was trying to fight for higher wages. He had some trouble over the course of his career reconciling that. But certainly his as Honest Industrial movement was one that recognized the rights of all workers, regardless of their backgrounds. I understand that you have one of the artifacts, a copy of the jungle. Whats the significance . Up ton sinclair wrote the jungle. He was a member of the socialist party himself and he highlighted the horrible conditions that meat packers worked in in chicago and the conditions what really riled up the country was not only the conditions of the workers who were working in the meat packing industry, but the quality of the meat, the processed meat that was coming out of the plant. So he was the one who wrote about rats and peoples fingers being caught in the processed meat and how horrible that was. So he worked he and debs were supporters of one another and up upton sainclair was able to highlight that. Very much of the same mind set in terms of demonstrating the negative consequences of big business. The bookends with a scene where he wanders into a socialist meeting and hears a character making a socialist speech. Socialism was the bigger answer. So debs is actually right in the book. Would you tell us the story of his first imprisonment and how he got connected with the whole concept and thinking of socialism at that time . Yes, he was he was head of the American Railway union which had mounted a successful strike against the Great Northern Railroad Company based in minneapolis in 1893. The aru gained thousands and thousands of members with debs as the head. And many of those members were part of the Pullman Car Company in 1894. They asked the aru for support when they decided to walk out against George Pullman who dropped their wages by 28 . Once the wages were dropped, they wanted to walk out and they asked the aru for support. And debs was reluctant at first. He thought it was too risky and but the pullman workers had a lot of support not only within pullman, the town of pullman, which is outside of chicago, but also had a lot of support from Railway Workers all the way from there to st. Louis. They staged what were some of the boycott or sympathic strikes along the Railway Lines and it became national in scope. And as a result of that, president Grover Cleveland and the courts got involved and wanted to issue an injunction to stop the power of the aru and stopping the transport of goods and especially the u. S. Mail along the railways through that corridor. Grover cleveland got involved he sent u. S. Troops to open up the Railway Depots that had been shut down as a result of the strike that had been called by the aru, and then debs was ultimately didnt call the striking workers off and was found in contempt of court for not following the injunction. And so he served three months in prison as a result of being convicted of being in contempt of court. And so then, it was then when he was in prison after the strike when he was introduced to socialist Party Literature and became a socialist party member and then staunch advocate. I read a description that he entered left prison a changed man the first time. Do you know more about that . Well, i think he did come to the realization when the federal troops came in and smashed the strike, when he ended up in prison for defending the rights of workers, that it made it as clear as it could be that the two parties were both working against labor and that there needed to be an alternative. He didnt go right away to socialism. He was involved in the populist party and very actively initially. When that failed, then the socialist party emerged after that. For our two guests, were going to begin bringing your telephone calls in the mix. They are 2027378001. As we take our first call, we want to give you a sense of where the house is on the campus of Indiana State University. This is our first caller. Steve, youre on the air. Caller please compare debs with William Jennings bryan because it seems like theyre appealing or tlrying to appeal o a similar constituency. Thanks very much. The election of 1912 . His William Jennings bryan was our earlier profile. How did they compare . Debs was an admirer of bryan and i think they shared some concerns about reform. I think the crucial difference is that debs was really a revolutionary. He was not only interested in reform, reform was necessary but he felt that something much greater is needed, that there needed to be an end to capitalism and Public Ownership of the means of production and that was a position that clearly distinguished him from bryans campaign. That election, it was his first try, 1900. He got 0. 6 of the popular vote that year. Do you know what his early appeals were as a candidate and how they changed over his many bids . The challenge for debs was to try to knit together socialists who were coming from very, very different positions. One of the strongest hot beds of socialism was oklahoma. People who had been populists started to develop these socialist meetings where they would gather together for to hear socialist speeches and debs was a hero there. But the socialist needed to also speak to trade unionists in chicago and milwaukee, to radical bohemians in San Francisco and greenwich village, so the real challenge for debs and for the party was to find a way to knit together people who all agreed on some level that capitalism needed to change fundamentally. But were coming at this from very, very different positions. So it took a while to build the apparatus. 1908, it looked like debs was beginning to understand some early marketing because he had some Campaign Tactics like the red train special and the red special ban. Can you tell us a little bit more about that . Well, 1908 was a critical year because of the popularity of the socialist party and the strength of labor unions in this period. So he his message, i think, as earnest was saying, appealed to increasingly more people from diverse amounts of backgrounds. The red special could have been a good unifying kind of symbol to use to unite what were very different groups of people who were working on farms or in urban areas. It meant to his supporters kind of a a challenge to big business. They would have called it big business or monopolies in that period. Thats what red ben would have indicated in the 1908 election. It was a good way to unify people with just the use of the red special. Next telephone is call from california. This is a caller named randy. Hi, randy, welcome. Thank you. Yes, i just wanted to kind of give a little bit of background. My granddaughter voted for debs in his election. The other thing, as i went through school, through high school, we never heard of debs and it seems like one of the things that is really lacking in our Education System is labor history. The fact that people talk about charity, Unemployment Insurance, and many people people are surprised that people died for those benefits. They were not gifts and people were literally killed and beaten and jailed for the right to Unemployment Insurance and the eighthour workday. With the neo fascists try to push the Republican Party further to the right, it seems like debs is not only important historically but to reestablish that message now more than ever. I think were in a critical part of history where if were not careful, we could be drifting towards fascism. I think randy, a question . A question for you, randy, before you go . Did you talk about debs with your grandfather . Caller yes, i did. And which election caller the 1916 election, i believe. 1920. That was the year he sat out, thank you. First of all, why did he sit out in 1916 . He was in ill health. I think he only ran in 1920 because of the unusual circumstances. He felt it was time to pass on the baton of the movement to somebody else. He did run for congress here in the indiana in 1916 but he didnt feel up to the red special when he was on that red special train, he was giving 15 speeches a day and he would come back exhausted and collapse in one of the bedrooms upstairs and spend weeks trying to recover. In 1916, he decided to sit out. Randys comments were probably music to your ears to the lack of eaching of labor history in schools. You teach at the college level. I wonder what youre thinking about teaching of American History to students today . Of course i would say that it should be taught more than it is. I think theres so much we can learn about working people, about people all of us who work every day and try to make ends meet and to value them by teaching their history is very important. It gives us a different perspective on what it means to fight for some of those rights that the caller was mentioning and not take them for granted and realize that as hard fought as they were fought for, they can be easily taken way and fought for again. We need to really teach, the struggles and how difficult it was so we dont take for granted the benefits that weve received as a result of them. In the early parts of the 20th century, was there a middle class in the United States . Sure. Yes. A large of part of corporate capitalism, i generated a much larger middle class. And so the people that he represented, would they have been part of that middle class it was the working class there were a large number of middle class supporters, people who went to debs meetings expecting to see them working class people were surprised to find that there were many of the most important writers and political thinkers that we can think of from that time period were either members of the socialist party or at least very sympathetic to their agenda. It was really he considered it a working Class Movement, but it had a strong leadership component from the middle class. In the period 1900 to mid 1915 or so, would it have been dangerous to call yourself a socialist in the United States, were the authorities watching you in any sort of way . Well, no. I would say it was not. There are particular incidents to be involved as a socialist in particular, strike environments or was a problem. There was conflict over the rights of soapbox speakers. They were believers in bringing their message to the streets and sometimes there are clashes with the police. But in terms of the sort of persecution of socialists, they were very much part of the political conversation in this period. When did that change and when did People Public at large begin to get more suspicious about intentions . When socialists started to get a lot of votes, that started the conversation. 1908 and 1912, Teddy Roosevelt called debs one of our most undesirable citizens, an apostle of bloodshed and anarchy. There was a sense that the forces of moderate opinion needed to push back against socialism rhetorically at first. It wasnt really until world war i that the gloves came off and socialism was sort of physically and legally assaulted. Next is a caller named cal watching in midtown manhattan. Caller im loving this series. Thank you for this series. Really fascinating history. Thank you. Just off the bat there, there are a couple of things that strike me and hopefully your guests and comment. One is the grievances against growing capitalism, strangling the rights of the people, as it was thought of then as it is now. As you know, we have this protest in the lower manhattan, occupy wall street that seems to have some of the same grievances as part of its platform and also the idea of the organization, the mechanics of the organization of the movement. I dont know if youre aware of this, but occupy wall street is receiving a lot of criticism because theyre making a deliberate attempt not to have a specific platform or agenda or a list of grievances. Maybe you can talk about the mechanics of organizing a movement as debs understood it and who might have inspired him in his life with the things that he might have thank you, thank you for the series. Thank you. Thanks, cal. Let me ask lisa to take up the question of what were his grievances against capitalism . His grievances against capitalism were it was monopoly corporate capitalism that he had the most trouble with and thats why he thought that an overthrow of corporate capitalism was in order and his grievances against them was the accumulation of wealth in the hands of a few and the controlling what he argued early on was that combinations of corporations and Business Owners would be able to get together to control many aspects of the economy and thats what he was clearly against. So what he advocated were labor unions as similar combinations of workers who could then Work Together to break the monopolies that corporate entities had been forming with each other to control many aspects of the economy at the time. So in that case in that way people argue that our time period is very similar to debs time period in terms of the growing gap between the wealthy and the less than wealthy. The mechanics that he used to organize them. I think thats an interesting question. It is the case that socialists, one of the things that made debs and socialism work in the way that it has not worked since is their talent for organizing, theyre willingness to attend a lot of meetings and develop a separate, independent press. They were strong critics. It sounds very modern about the influence of big money on newspapers, on the media of the day. And very much believed that there was no way that people were going to hear the workers side of the story if they didnt create their own alternative press. That was crucial. Debs was the exciting person who blew into town and rallied the troops. But socialism relied on a grassroots, organizing process and a lot of attempts to win at the local level. The presidency was out of reach, but it was not impossible to get on the city council. But we have to think about the time period. This is even before radio began. And so politics for americans, in those days, meant what in their lives . Was it an activity to fill the evenings in ways that we dont really appreciate today . Well, sure. This was a period of enormous party loyalty. It was starting to fade in this time period. But not for also social, is what im asking, so people would gather in the evening and listen to speeches in ways that were now were busy with lives and have lots of media in our lives and that sort of thing. And i think there were many more newspaper sources and they were much more barbed. Labor unions had their own press. So there was a much more complicated mix available to people in print. Actually, while were talking about media, lisa, will you talk about a publication for which debs wrote frequently called the appeal to reason . Sure. Its sitting right here next to me. And this is the appeal to reason right here. And it was started in 1895 as a populist Party Newspaper and it became the journal or the newspaper of the socialist party in 1901 and so it is one of those publications, many newspapers of which would have existed and did exist in that time period where people would read and find out as much as information as they could. So it was Upton Sinclair was first serialized in the appeal to reason. Many authors of the period would have written first in the appeal to reason. I would like to read to you a statement that debs made to be published. Heres just briefly. It is now certain that the socialist party has doubled its national vote. Now that the battle is ours, we must lose no time in preparing for the next. Were the only ones who came out with colors flying. The socialist party is the party of the people. This young giant will make history in the next few easier. They will demonstrate their thousands who voted their ticket will turn from them in disgust. That was a bad prediction. The Party Started to decline right after that election and at least in terms of membership and never recovered that peak. Why . One of the main reasons was the Wilson Administration did just the opposite of what debs predicted there. It brought in a slate of reforms, our controls for eighthour day for Railroad Workers, some regulation of the banking system, some gestures towards the rights for unions to organize. Steps only steps, small steps toward what the socialist wanted but certainly enough to win a lot of voters. Lets take our next telephone call. Its from new york and this is sharon on the line. Sharon, go ahead, please. Caller i want to thank cspan for this wonderful series. Im enjoying it so much. Im wondering if your guests might comment on his early life and what his parents did for a living. Thank you very much. Thank you. Would you like to take that, randy . You know, im not exactly sure i can remember what debs father did for a living. I know he was a great idealist and debs himself his middle name is after victor hugo and it was a big part of debs upbringing. Lisa . I was just remembering that debs father was a port kind of a processer of pork at a manufacturing plant. Theres realm realm nances of him being depressed as a worker. And so they opened a Small Grocery in the front of their house and he went on to become a successful small grocer in the area. One of his first jobs was as an accountant for the home and grocery line and he had had experience with the Family Business and so that enabled him to do that work. So that was what his his familys income came from having been a small involved in Small Business. Why did he have to drop out of school at age 14 . As i recall, i think he it wasnt common for people to finish high school and he wanted to get a job on the railroads because the railroads were the new and exciting thing for young men to become a part of. And so his very first job was as a paint scraper, i think, for the local railroad that was running through the area that was coming through. So he was a paint scraper first and it was a new and exciting job for him in an era where didnt people as commonly finish high school. Can either of you tell us about his marriage . That was a source of controversy in the movement. He was deeply loyal to kate debs but it was clear she married him as an aspiring young grocer and congressman and not as a socialist. Shes often spoken favor of socialism publicly, but not enthusiastically. Many decided that she was probably would have been happier if he had not pursued that life which also kept him on the road most of the time. Debs was back in terre haute to rest and recover before he headed out on another campaign. Kate spent a lot in the time in the living room where we are in this house in terre haute, indiana. With Railroad Workers knocking on the door and hoping they could see their hero. Did they ever have any children . No. And you said he traveled extensively and she chose not to do that . Hard to know what was going on. Lets take our next phone call. This is tom. Tom here we are in your hometown. Have you been to the debs house . Caller no, i have not. I work two blocks away from there so i have no excuse for that. Thank you for a fantastic series. I would just like to make a comment a quick comment because there are so many people across america would love to be calling. I lucked out to do it. I just want to say this, when the unions and socialism came about because of the lack of benevolent employers and i want to make one point, i lived in colorado and i work at westinghouse and i called on the mines of colorado, and i used to drive through southern colorado on interstate 25 and i would pass a town and i would ask ms. Phillips if she knows anything about the massacre. And im not sure when it happened. Im sure debs was alive at the time. But i would just hang up now and please ponder what i have said. You moguls of america who we need jobs and we need them now. So please could you tell us a little bit about the massacre in colorado . Well, the massacre and several other massacres or riots of that time period were often blamed on the striking workers or the protesting workers at the time whether they be miners or whether they be protesting for their rights. What happened in other incidents was that there would be federal troops or other authorities brought in to quell the protesting workers and many of them would be killed. I cant remember how many people died in the massacre, but in other riots in the homestead strike, several people would be killed and the labor the unions or the striking workers would be blamed for having caused a riot and for protesting. And so that caused a lot of that was part of the reason why precursor to the aru, the knights of labor went by the wayside because they were blamed for the hay market riot which caused the deaths of several people. So that massacre was an incident where striking workers were killed and where people were blamed, the strikers themselves were blamed, unfortunately, for that. So i think to get to the callers original point, what debs actually wanted was a return to the benevolent em plo employer. He had been friends with people who he supported when they had the best interest of terre haute in mind. It was when they brought in heavy capitalists and when they started to make relationships with people out east, that they that debs started to break his ties with Small Business smaller Business Owners in places like terre haute and started criticizing them for their need for profit. So it was it wasnt Small Business that he originally was against. It was the forprofit motive that drove those businessmen to become business moguls and create conditions that called the massacre and the hay market riot. They didnt think any other choice other than to strike. Were there socialists all across the United States or was it a regional phenomenon, lisa . No, it was all across the United States. Here in the midwest and also out west, especially with the western federation of miners, they were big supporters of the socialist party. So there were mostly out west, oklahoma, the midwest and east in the east and places like new york where the strongholds of the socialist party. But the remarkable thing about the socialists was they drew support from rural americans and farms who were being affected by capitalism, from urban areas like chicago and new york, from western coal miners. They drew support from lots of people who were similarly negatively affected by the rise of this corporate kind of capitalism. You had a thought you wanted to add . Well, i think rather than moving toward more benevolent employers, debs i dont think believed that was possible at this point. I think rather than ending monopoly capitalism and going back to smallscale capitalism, socialists were arguing that business will get bigger and bigger. The important thing is for it to be run by the people rather than individuals for private gain. This is a much more radical proposition as a way to solve this problem. There were plenty of people, including capitalists who were engaged with trying to figure out how to soften the hard edges of the Industrial Revolution that was going on. Andrew carnegie with his gospel of wealth suggested there needed to be more benevolent moguls. Debs said thats not the problem. We need to continue to continue to build monopolies and take them for the people. Our series, the contenders, looks at 14 men who tried for the presidency and lost but changed American History. We have 90 minutes tonight to learn more about his period of time. His five runs for the presidency were from 1900 through 1920. And for our two guests here, our next telephone call is from virginia outside washington. This is john. Hi, john. Caller hi, susan. Wonderful program. Thanks to cspan. I was intrigued by your guests comments that Teddy Roosevelt that eugene debs was the most dangerous man in america when Teddy Roosevelt himself is known as the trust buster and breaking up started oil which seemed that they would have at least some things in common. I wonder if your guests could comment on that. Sure. Very good question. Roosevelt said we need to take what he called the sane part of the debs program and adopt it. His interest in taking over private industry and trying to run it through the people, dratically, that this was a crazy idea that would undermine one of pillars in american democracy in private property and free enterprise. On the other hand he was well aware of the growing concern among workers as well as the middle class about the problems of big busy. Roosevelt argued that it was important to take the good ideas, the things that we now have inherited from the socialist movement in many ways that weve been talking about and adopt this. This became an important part of his platform and were part of the reform agenda for the Wilson Administration. He said, you know, debs wants to tear down in the spirit of hate by stirring up class envy workers against their masters in a sense. But what he wanted to do was to socialize the country in a different way, without socialism. Lisa, do you have more to add on that question . I might be remembering this wrong, but i dont think Teddy Roosevelt supported nationwide strikes of the type that happened under the aru with pullman. That seemed very dangerous to president s who were in charge of making sure that the country ran smoothly. Any time you saw a case where there was a strike fto meanted y a National Labor union, then that too would have put Teddy Roosevelt and eugene debs on opposite sides of the divide there around what how much how strong you should be in terms of being able to shop business from functioning. Another topic all together to understand socialist thinking in the United States in the early 20th century, what about the intersection between socialist thinking and religion . A large number of the socialists were religious. In texas there was a strong party there and a Strong Movement of what was called the social gospel or social christianity. Many of those people were supportive supporters of debs even though he was a believer in the most tenuous sense. He considered churches to be the enemy, a part of the apparatus to oppress workers, especially with the catholic church. He was very critical. Claimed never to go into a church. But many christians in his humanitarian compassion for workers really exemplified a tremendous number of people over the course of his career said, i dont know what he believes, but hes the most christlike person i know. His compassion for the underdog is the essence of christianity. There was a this is an important distinction because the debsen social move and the communist movement that comes after that. It was very much a capable not everybody in that socialist movement was a believer by any means. But it was something where that was an important part of the mix. If you signed your name to a card that said im a member of the socialist party, what did that mean the core of your beliefs . That the most important struggle was the struggle between the working class and the owning class and that this was inevitably going to result in a victory for the working class as a necessary next step in the evolution of history and for american socialists, i think, a necessary next step to realize or to protect the principles of the american revolution, the dignity of individuals. But embodied in their ability to participate equally in their economy. Thought of themselves as patriots. Harkening back to he spoke of lincoln and also of some of the Founding Fathers in his writing. He really saw himself as an extension of the early roots of American History . Defining the important movers and shakers in America History as radicals. He would point back to jesus, to socrates, to thomas jefferson, to john brown, wendell phillips, history moves forward with people who start out with an idea that is deeply unpopular but is the next step for moral evolution. We have a hoosier for our next call. Welcome to the conversation. Caller thanks for having the conversation. Its a great surprise to see on television tonight. Would you be able to comment on debs relationship with the Industrial Workers of the world and with the general strike in seattle . Lisa phillips . The iww was a clearly industrial movement. It was juxtaposed against the American Federation of labor which was a crafts skillsbased Workers Union. So it was a Movement Among working class of people. And its boundaries not as nationalistic and it sought to work with workers and other countries, spain, france, italy, and is a part of a kind of this never came to be, but they saw themselves as a part of a workers Movement Among workers fighting capital worldwide rather than just in the United States. It very much fit with debs later interpretation of what had to be done to promote the rights of workers not only in the United States but in other places in the world as well. Was he affiliated with them throughout his life . No, there was a split within the its kind of complicated. But there was a split within the iww over the socialist party, there was a split within the socialist party that affected the iww. And so he remained very much supported the iww but took less of a leadership position once rival socialist Party Leaders took and big bill haywood kind of took over the iww or at least brought it into a different vision than debs had in mind. Was the iww the wobblies . Yes. And i think one of the most important breaks was over the issues of violence or sabotage. The wobblies argued this was a tough bunch in a tough environment, working in the mines and lumbar fields and they argued there were times in order to advance their cause they needed to use sabotage or other forms of violence to fight back. Did debs agree with that . Debs did not agree with that. He recognized there were times when you needed to use violence, but he felt that the strategy of advocating violence was not appropriate for american democracy and that in fact workers always lost. When they tried violence, most of the power to spread violence around belonged to the state. Next up is minneapolis and this is ken. Hi, ken. Caller hello. This is ken in minneapolis. Thank you, cspan, for this series. I work in public radio and a little bit earlier your scholars were talking about debs in media. In new york city there is or was a famous Radio Station wevb. The name from eugene v. Debs and it debuted in the early 1920s and it was one of the first noncommercial listenersupported Radio Station. Im curious if he had any involvement with that Radio Station . Thanks. His demise was in 1926. Radio just beginning to come on the scene as a medium. Did he have a connection . As far as i know, its an homage to him, but he had no direct connection to it. We have 35 minutes left. This program is going by pretty quickly here. A question for you about debs, if you can answer this, if he were to walk into the room, were surrounded by images of him all over this house. Its interesting how many you have preserved here in the foundation. Can you give us a sense of how tall a man he was . Was he slight . Give us a personal glimpse of him if you can. As far as i know, he was i think he was 62 or 63. Im not sure if thats correct. Thats about right. And i think he was always very thin. So he was very lanky. You can see that in the pictures of him. And he was that way from his youth on and so he was a commanding figure but he was not burly, i guess i would say. You told me that he was also an advocate of some of the contemporary eating fads of the days, of more early Holistic Health . He was often ill and it was hard to pin down what the problem was. I think some biographers have suggested it was a nervous exhaustion from these hard campaigns, the stress that he was under. And he would retreat to try to recover and find his way to these sanitariums where he would experiment with walnuts and a ketchup diet and sleeping with his head towards the north. He would write back to his brother suggesting these things were working out the great for him. Switching gears, as the nation began to march toward world war i, what happened to the Labor Movement as all of this international, political turmoil in this country was making these Big Decisions about its role in that . Sure. When the war first broke out in europe, most americans, workers and otherwise, were really very determined to keep out of the war. They were isolationists, especially in the midwest and in the south said god gave us the Atlantic Ocean for a reason and thats to not get involved in the european war. The large immigrant groups were deeply divided about the conflict overseas but didnt want to participate helping the other side. And so there was a strong push for neutrality, initially. Really until things escalated out of control. Wilson was elected for a second term campaigning that he had kept the country out of war, that he was a negotiator for peace. Just weeks after being inaugurated for a second term, he started to move the country to war. And i want to show our viewers your book because were now getting into your subject area, democracys prison. In 1917 Congress Passed a law about speech about the war. Would you tell our viewers what that law was . Its called the espionage act, but it actually was never used to convict any spies during the war. There were german spies and much of the law dealt with that. But there were provisions there that allowed for the government to have enormous control over dissent. The postmaster was given the power to ban any publication that was publishing anything that the postmaster considered not to be supportive of the war and anybody who is deemed to say anything that was discouraging of the war effort was liable to a 10,000 fine and 10 to 20 years in prison. Obviously today we look at it and say, First Amendment challenges all over this. Did the Supreme Court ever hear the law . Sure, they did. Debs was one of the important test cases. There were three test cases that came up. About 1,200 people were convicted and were sent to prison. And were sent to prison. And the Supreme Court unanimously supported it at that point. Now, debs began to be antiwar at what point . Well, he was as i said, he wasnt a passivist. He felt that the civil war was an appropriate use of arms. But he considered the war in europe to be the socialist argument was this is a clash between competing empires over colonies and that the only people who were going to benefit the old phrase, the rich mans war and the poor mans fight, there was lots of money to be made in the war but the working people were the ones who were going to suffer. And that was the socialist position when the war broke out, when wilson and congress moved to war, the socialists gathered a few days later in st. Louis and passed a proclamation vowing that they were going to fight the war in every possible way they could and fight the draft actively. A number of socialists broke from the party at that point, up to sinclair, weve been talking about. He felt as if that was the wrong move. Others worried that the party would be destroyed by this, that it would be labeled unamerican, but debs and a quite a number of the party said it was a stand they needed to make. I want to ask you about what the popular view in america was about the draft at that time. Your question, please. How do you do . Thank you for your discussion tonight. Its very wonderful. I do want to take thanks for watching. Caller unfortunately, really, socialism and the ideal of the keyword meaning Central Planning, that would mean theres a group who involved themselves in the Central Planning of our economy or our society and that leads itself to a small group who defined how citizens should behave and i want to say that socialism, although wonderful in its ideals and communism and its ideals and all that, it does not truly exist and i believe that James Madison described it correctly that unfortunately for good or bad, were in competition with one another. And that is what satisfies. That leads to individual freedom. Central planning leads to a small group which today reflects today as we want someone whos central plans are society as to who benefits and who doesnt benefit. It leads to someone in a small Group Calling who wins and who loses. Thank you. Thank you again. Thanks. Lisa phillips, comments actually, that was not too far off from debs position, believe it or not. What he was arguing was that the central planners of his day were these large Business Owners, the andrew carnegies, the rock fellers, the vanderbilts who had a lot of political power and influence and who in essence through monopoly formation were the central planners for that economy in that period. He would have been with you, on that. But he just wanted there to be a more Diverse Group of people, working people, who had a role in the planning of the economy and how wealth was distributed. So he was against the Central Planning that was being done in the period by very wealthy by that point, americans and Business Owners. In the interest of time here, we were talking about the draft, but i want to go onto his position on the draft and his famous speech in canton, ohio. To share with our viewers. It was a speech that ended up having debs arrested and just to get a flavor of it, here is one of two quotes, the working class who freely shed their blood and furnish the corpses have never had a voice in declaring voice and making peace. If war is right, let it be declared by the people. When he made that speech, did he know he was going to go to jail . He had to know that it was likely. He knew that there were federal agents, stenographers in the audience taking down what he add to say. He gave a number of speeches along the same lines and had not been arrested. He said at the start of the speech, i need to be careful what i say. Im not going to say anything i dont believe. I know im being watched and the audience fully understood the situation. He spent a lot of that time in that speech denouncing the fact that many of his comrades were already in prison. He said if theyre guilty, im guilty. What was his trial like . Was it a big National Event when yes, it was. It was in cleveland. And debs got an opportunity to make two very powerful speeches about socialism in front of a national audience. His lawyers hoped to get him off on a technicality and they were interested in making a strong free speech argument in his defense. He felt as if the system was rigged, the judiciary was in the pockets of big business, and it was more important for him to take this opportunity to win a propaganda coup for socialism. He was sentenced for ten years. Its hard to say he got a break. He was an older man at that point and not good health and when he went off to prison, it was many people assumed if he didnt get out, you know, he would have died in prison. Were about 20 minutes left. Were going to take a couple calls and talk about his 1920 campaign from inside the atlanta federal prison. Donna, go ahead, please. Caller hi. Im so happy to hear this program. I cant tell you how grateful i am to have it over the air. A little comment about ludlow, colorado. My mothers friend talked about her parents being part of what happened in ludlow. And she told me, because i was going on a road trip with my son to look for a sign north of trinidad alongside the road and all it will say is, this is the place. And that is the place where my friends mother and father ran down a dry river bed, shots fired all around them, running for their lives. The second thing i would like to say is a Little Something about Upton Sinclair. I lived in california, the land of dock workers. And Upton Sinclair was arrested in san pedro for reading the constitution to the dock workers and that began the Southern California aclu. And the third comment is that i have moved back to oklahoma. Ive been gone for about 50 years. I lived here as a teenager. But i went to a labor rally in support of the wisdom Public Employees and was on the State Capitol steps and a friend of mine stood next to me with a little sign in latin and she told me that it was the Oklahoma State motto. And it was from a socialist desire and it is, sh lablabor cs all. And now were the reddest state in the union which is an ironic thing. Thank you so much for your comments. Well let that stand and take a telephone call from eric in los angeles. Go ahead, please. Caller hello. I also am enjoying the program and i think that eugene debs really tried to keep us to our ideals and so my question, though, is about a social christian a Christian Socialist who ran on the ticket with debs in 1900. And then later was involved in the trials of the mcnamara brothers who were accused of using sabotage to further their cause. And he was one of the attorneys that i know that debs defended defended in print, the mcnamaras and i wonder if they could comment on that, thank you. Lisa phillips, is this a period of debs life that you can fill us in on. I dont know enough about it. But i do know that i i failed to mention earlier that clearance darrow was a huge part of the defense after he was accused of being convicted for contempt of court and for the pullman strike. But i dont know enough about joe to comment on his involvement with debs or with the mcnamara brothers. He did not intend to justify the dynamiting of the building, which was the stcenter of antilabor sentiment at that point. He believed that the mcnamaras were innocent. Much of his defense of them was really based on believing that this was a false charge. His second sentencing was under the espionage act and he made a speech at his sentencing, one of his quotes from that time is among eugene v. Debs most famous. I said then and i say now, while there is a lower class, im in it. While theres a criminal element, i am of it. While there is a soul in prison, i am not free. He went to prison and then the 1920 campaign, which he decided to take part in. Can you tell me about he campaigned for president from his prison cell in atlanta . How did he do that . He was not allowed it was an awkward situation for the federal government because he was being jailed but he was a legitimate candidate from a legitimate legal party. They showed up and presented him with flowers and nominated him, allowed him to give a speech, the socialists did. But then the government allowed him only to campaign by submitting i think it was eight 500word letters to the press over the campaign. Somebody who had been on the red special and giving hundreds of speeches was basically spending the campaign relying on his party to go out and spread the word. You have one of his campaign buttons. Can you show it to us . Here it is. Its very small. What does does it say . It says lets see, convict number 9653 for president. Its one of the most Famous Campaign buttons in president in u. S. History. One of the only like it. He managed to garner nearly a million votes from inside that federal penitentiary. How did he do that . Thats a question for you, lisa. Im sorry. He did that because he had a National Following by then. It was 1920. He had been in the National Newspapers for several years, people knew of his message. Labor unions continued to support him and despite the fact that he was accused of a accused of encouraging people not to enlist in the military during world war i which was extremely problematic, he still had a following among workers, among socialists who believed in his message. So he did that because of his National Reputation by then. What were some of the other themes of the 1920 campaign . Well, many of the socialist leaders, maybe a little less, but his campaigners said this is actually a vote for free speech. This is an opportunity for all americans, whether youre a socialist or not, to cast a vote and protest against the Wilson Administrations debs embodied at that point, all by mob violence, by state laws, by the postal censor to squash the centers not just socialists, but passives had been rounded up. By 1920, many americans, in the grip of war fever, thought maybe that was a good idea, but started to reconsider that and they were particularly supported by a small group of people who became the American Civil Liberties union and trying to advance their rights. There were only about 100,000 socialists, actually far less than that at this point, i think the number is in the 20,000 to 30,000 duespaying members at this point, and he got a million votes. Some of those people were socialists, but i think a lot of those people were actually voting for free speech. Terre haute, indiana. Dave . Caller how are you all . Do you have a question about one of your famous citizens . Caller i do. Im a graduate of Indiana State University, the same university that you all are sitting on. What was eugene v. Debs impact, on the university at the time, if any . Did he have an influence and did he take part in the development of the university . Thank you very much. Do you know . I dont know if he did anything with indiana state in that period, but i am curious now to find out. Syracuse, new york, ralph, go ahead. Caller im from upstate new york, and i think the problem was that you had at the time eugene debs and you had the socialist party and you had the socialist workers party, and then you had Samuel Gompers of the American Federation of labor. Gompers and eugene debs didnt see eye to eye, and thats the problem that you never had a unified Workers Union in this country. There was splinter groups. That was his problem that he was never able to achieve his goals and id like to see if your guests would comment on that. Thank you very much. There was a huge split, the caller is right, during this period and it continues to the present day among labor unions with regard to the split in that period it was craft unionism versus industrial unionism, which is what debs advocated through the iww. So debs was after a working Class Movement where he erased the lines dividing skilled workers from unskilled workers where the American Federation of labor was composed of tightly organized craftbased unions whether they be plumbers or carpenters or bricklayers, that kind of thing. It was an approach for the labor union and they didnt see eye to eye continuing into the 1930s, 40s, 50s and beyond. Debs was campaigning in 1920. During the Wilson Administration, twice his attorney general put before him clemency petitions. Why did wilson say no . Its a little complicated. Wilson was open to the idea initially, it seems, as a way to clear the air after the war. He had a stroke. He seemed to sort of lose his moral compass, but they felt it was an obvious gesture of goodwill he might make. He heard from a lot of soldiers and their families that debs was a traitor. It was not just the government that considered debs and these others to have crossed a line. Debs was the embodiment of that descent. In fact, was there an active campaign by the American Legion and others to keep debs in jail . Sure. That was one of their primary missions when they first organized. After world war i, they said this was their priority number one, keep debs in prison. The ku klux klan was emerging at this point, and they considered debs and the other radicals, that it was important that they stay in prison. There was a lot of pressure on the president and not a lot of political gain, i think in his judgment, to release so how did he secure an Early Release . Wilson left office, and then the whole process of putting pressure on the president began again with warren harding. People were in the Amnesty Movement were a lot less optimistic about convincing harding because harding was probusiness republican who seemed to have less motivation. You know, there were plenty of socialists who supported wilson. It seemed like wilson would be the one to let the socialists out of the prison. But harding, he campaigned on this idea of returning the country to a prewar normalcy, to sort of stop these tensions. And the protest movement, the Amnesty Movement, to try to get debs out of prison was not just the election, but there was a huge movement. There were petitions being gathered across terre haute and across the country. Massive petition drives. They would have to bring the petitions in on the back of a pickup truck to deliver to the white house. Many people from across europe and the United States. George bernard shaw and h. G. Wells and h. G. Menkin and helen keller. Many, many people are involved in this movement to try to get the prisoners out. I think for harding, he had no interest in inherit thing mess from wilson. So in the name of normalcy, he waited a little while and let debs out of prison. Not only let him out but invited him to the white house. Yeah. And debs went . Debs went, yeah. What do we know about that meeting . Neither of them said anything about it. Harding said something like, im so damn glad to meet you. It was a christmas afternoon meeting, i guess, and debs came out and said harding seems like a very nice man. I believe he said, you know, that the president asked me to tone down my rhetoric, but i have no intention of doing that, and then he got back on the train and headed to terre haute. Youre looking at some extremely rare footage, i dont know if its been seen before on tv, of debs coming out of the white house and speaking to the media after his meeting with the president there. He lived until 1926. We have about 10 minutes left. Lets get a couple calls and well talk more about his legacy. Ann arbor, michigan. James, youre on the air. Go ahead, please. Caller hi. Can i ask you a question . Go ahead, james. Caller hi. I have two questions. Hello . James, yes, we can hear you. Ask your question, please. Lets move on, please. Im sorry, our time is short. Next up is a call from graham in charleston, south carolina. Go ahead. Caller hey, good evening. My question, i just want to know what you think, if any, debs movement could exist in modern day america with the development of global capitalism, and then what you think debs would think about the Tea Party Movement thats going on currently. Thank you. Thanks very much. Its always a tough thing for historians, isnt it, to project what a historical character might think today, but do you want to take a stab at it . It needs to be done with real caution. First thing i would say, global capitalism is not something that is new. That was very much an issue with the flow of immigrants and the flow of capital and the worldwide nature of capitalism in debs own day. Sometimes it seems we overstate the Global Nature of the economy that we live in now. As far as the tea party goes, lisa . Well, he certainly wouldnt have been in agreement with the tea party supportive of big business. Thats the simplest way i can put it. I dont know you know, his message still resonates, i think, with us today, and were still facing some of the same problems he was fighting against as a result of by the wages being driven down by global Multi National corporations, and not just in the u. S. But worldwide, so he certainly would a lot to say about the same type of things that would escalate from his period to today. Im sure he would still be against the negative impact of multinational corporations now globally. You have a final artifact for us to look at, his cell block keys . Yes. Look at the size of those. I know, theyre huge. Why dont i use the reminder of his prison term to have you help us kind of finish out our program in the last six or seven minutes left. How is he viewed by the Labor Movement today . How did they look back on his time and his contributions . Well, i just attended a banquet last week put on by the Debs Foundation where many trade unionists, and danny glover was in attendance, and everyone remembers debs for being a spokesperson for the working class. And he continues to carry that legacy for workers in this country and beyond. So he certainly resonates here in terre haute and among trade unionists across country, i would argue. As we think about his final years, i was showing you before we started here, time magazine, monday, november 1, 1926, his obituary with the headline radical eugene v. Debs. A model prisoner, around him he saw his socialist party disintegrating. Within him he felt his strength ebbing, his speeches seemed pathetic, his pen had lost its throb. A month ago he went to a sanitarium where he died at age 71. What were his years like after prison . How important a voice was he in those last years . He spent the rest of his life trying to rebuild the socialist party that had been so badly splintered by the war, without success. And that was both a selfinflicted wound because the socialist party itself had had a bitter split over communism, and it was a very difficult thing for him. The communists were trying to convince him to join them. You know, he was the countrys most famous most highprofile and beloved radical, and the communists wanted very much to have him on board. And debs had been very enthusiastic about the bolshevik revolution, but he refused to sign on with the communists, objecting to a dictatorship of the proletariat and objecting. So he was left with half a party. Much of the young energy had gone into the communist party at this point. Meanwhile, the party had been smashed by legal attacks during the war, so he tried to rebuild the party for those years without a whole lot of access. Of success. He is buried here in terre haute, indiana at highland lawn cemetery. We have some video of his gravesite and well look at that as we listen to manny from new york city. Caller my question is what did debs do with the Russian Revolution . And can you separate socialism from marxism during this period of time . Thank you very much. Thanks so much. Huge topics with not much time. He did not visit russia. There was an attempt to get him to go to russia. The bolsheviks considered debs to be an american hero. He was, as i said, an admirer of the bolshevik revolution, but felt like the things the russians, the bolsheviks did in russia were not appropriate for american socialism. Americans, in spite of all he had experienced, being sent to prison twice for his actions, he still believed in american democracy and still believed that the way forward for American Workers was to organize unions and to support the socialist party. We have another terre haute call. Its great to have people locally participating. This is todd. Go ahead, todd. Caller hi. Im calling from terre haute and id like to thank you for this program. For lisa, who i understand is a member of the eugene v. Debs foundation, i would like her to address debs continuing legacy of peace, equality and social justice and let people know how they might pursue their interests in debs if they want to know something more about him. Certainly. Well, in this age of technology, there is a website devoted to the Debs Foundation, so thats certainly an easy way to access more information about the Debs Foundation and about whats here in the debs house and about debs legacy. You know, the social justice piece is what we call it today, but as i said earlier, he certainly continues to provide inspiration to working people here in terre haute and throughout the u. S. As they struggle against lowering wages, unemployment, all the things that are plaguing us today. This house is open for visitors. How many do you get every year and how do people visit . I dont know the numbers on how many people we have every year, but the museum is open every afternoon of the week and on saturdays. And you can go to the website and contact karen brown who runs tours of the museum throughout the week. We have one minute left. Im going to turn the floor over to you. A great resource, Indiana University collections has online a great collection of images of debs and pamphlets, access to letters and so forth. Your book, too, as we close here, ernest freedmans book is about eugene v. Debs, his imprisonment under the espionage act and his campaign for president in 1920 in his final years. I want to say thank you to both of us as we close out here in terre haute, indiana, and telling us more about this third party fivetime pursuer of the white house and his affect on American History. Again, debsfoundation. Org is their website. Charles king, Indiana University, special collections here at the university and our affiliate time warner cable. Thanks to all of you for helping us put this program together. From terre haute, indiana, the eugene v. Debs home and museum. Week nights on American History tv were looking at the contenders, looking at 14 president ial candidates that lost the election but had a lasting effect on u. S. Politics. Tonight we feature chief of Justice Charles hughes. He ran for president in 1916 against woodrow wilson. Watch tonight beginning at 8 00 eastern. And enjoy American History tv this week and every weekend on cspan3. Every saturday at 8 00 p. M. Eastern on American History tv on cspan3, go inside a Different College classroom and hear about topics ranging from the american revolution, civil rights and u. S. President s to 9 11. Thanks for your patience and logging into class. With most College Classes closed due to the impact of the coronavirus, watch professors transfer teaching to a virtual setting to engage with their students. Gorbachev did most of the work to change the soviet union. But reagan met him halfway. Reagan encouraged him, reagan supported him. Freedom of the press, i should just mention madison originally called it freedom of the use of the press, and it is indeed freedom to print things and publish things. It is not a freedom for what we refer to institutionally as the press. American history tv on cspan3 every saturday at 8 00 p. M. Eastern. Its also available as a podcast. Find it where you listen to podcasts. Youre watching American History tv. Every weekend on cspan3, explore our nations past. Cspan3, created by americas Cable Television companies as a Public Service and brought to you today by your television provider. Now Columbia University professor eric r