Ashland. Henry clays home in lexington, kentucky, and for the next 90 minutes we will explore the life and legacy of this man, unsuccessful in his long quest for the white house, yet having an outsized influence on American History. And we are in henry clays parlor r parlor right now. Let me introduce you to jim plotter, historian. Thank you for being with us. Good to be here. Why is he relevant to americans living in our time . On a couple of accounts, his famous quote, i would rather be right than be president. Its a call to people whatever were doing, which is to do the right thing. In a sense, politicians need to remember the country and sacrifice for the country and i think that is still something that we need to remember, as well and the man known as the great compromiser, and a man that forges these compromises that not only kept the nation together, but were constructive and those are the kinds of things we need to remember about henry clay as well as the things that he did in his life, and theyre a clarion call over and over to us to say to us again and again that we can do a lot of things if we just do and try as a selfmade man did like henry clay. Well have 49 years of political history into our program tonight, but lets start with basics about his biography. Where and when was he born and how did he get to kentucky . He was burden in 1777 and seventh child and his father died very young. Clays mother remarried to a younger man, but clay liked to think of himself as a selfmade man, the mill boy working himself to the bone and coming up from the ranks from a very poor family, but in essence he came from a well to do family. They had slaves. They werent that bad off, but it was the persona that clay presented of himself. From there his family basically came to kentucky leaving him in virginia to be on his own and from there he joined them back in kentucky when he was 20 years old as a young lawyer. The easiest way to get rich is marry well and he did that and this is the estate that were in today is an example of what he did with his start and with his promise and he made himself into somebody that all americans knew. Whom did he marry . Lacretia clay. Lacretia hart clay. He married into that family and it gave him entry into the political circles that would have probably been denied him. She brought with that marriage some money and they basically had the connections because her family was linked to a lot of people and he used those connections to move forward, but he also got his foot in the door that he could open the door himself through his own skills and his own abilities. If heenry clay were through time travel, be here today, what did he look like . What did he sound like . I dont think anybody would sit down with henry clay and not leave not liking henry clay. He was not a handsome man. They said his mouth was so large he couldnt spit properly. He was a man who liked the ladies, as they said. He can kiss them on one side of his mouth while resting the other side of his mouth. As soon as he opened that mouth a good oratory came out and he could charm you and he had charisma that if it was a person of the opposite party that one time came to henry clays home and to a party that clay was doing and it was a room filled with people, a room bigger than this and he said to this man, wouldnt you like to meet the famous mr. Clay and his democrats said about the wig clay, no, sir, no, sir, i do not wish to subject myself to the spell of his fascination because he knew that henry clay would suck him into his orbit because he had the personality and the charisma and charm that anybody who would meet him would like henry clay been on one. Do you know this . Was this just a genetic gift or did he school himself to have a minuter . When did he get this from . . He heard Patrick Henry speak . Shirj shirj and he was henrys oratory and he talks about giving speeches to the cows and the field as practice and you almost had to convince the juries through the force of your words. So he developed it, but he was almost a selfmade orator, too, because over time it was something that he could turn on a minute and speak on the issues. He was impossible to challenge clay in a debate because he would get up on the spur of the moment and come up with all of the facts and figures and win the argument. John calhoun once prepared to talk for two weeks and clay got up and demolished it within instantly and thats the kind of man that clay was and had he been able to appear on television, he could have been a really effective politician. At that time, you didnt campaign for president. There was no radio, so you had that force of the oratory was less and only in congress would you have the full force of that. When weve been talking with historians and people here in ashland about him they keep telling us that he was the equivalent of a rock star in his time. Everybody in the country knew him and in a country with mass communication, how was it possible to know who henry clay was . Politics was the sports at that time. It was the game everybody followed and there were no organizers and there was no news are musical thing except in the church and things like that. The politics and the oratory, everybody wanted to follow that as closely as they could and the oratory, and the speeches were clay and webster, young boys in school and girls would write them down because they wanted to be like henry clay, but he was like a rock star. He would be followed by adoring people and hed go into towns and there was 100,000 people turning out to hear him speak at one time in dayton, ohio. He had children named if him and steam boats named for him and he was a man that people wanted to see to savor the excellence of henry clay. Politicians still talk with henry clay today and lets listen to Mitch Mcconnell referencing henry clay. Henry clay was the greatest statesman that my home state ever produced. He served the people as speaker of the Kentucky House of representatives. Speaker of the United States house of representatives and secretary of state under president John Quincy Adams and of course, as one of the greatest senators to ever walk through the capitol. He was also honored to receive his partys nomination three times, one in 1824, 1832 and 1844. The essence of legislating in the senate as a hundred viewpoints are brought together to create one law is com from myself. Henry clay became known as the great compromiser by forging the compromise that would keep his Precious Union together. Clay did not compromise in the sense of forsaking his principles and rather his skill was to bring together disparate ideas and to forge consensus among his colleagues. Thats a skill we could certainly use more of now. During the great debates we just went through this summer about the debt ceiling and there was talk about compromise and whether or not it was a lost art. Talk to us in the context of henry clay as the great compromiser and what sort of skills he brought to bear there. Clay, if he wanted something to happen would wok very hard to make it happen. He would sit down with people and he would find out what they wanted and go to the other side and see what theyd want and try to find some common ground, somewhere in the middle. It cost him because as they say about com from myselfors there is a sign in the Attorney Generals Office in the 1960s, that said blessed are peacemakers for they should catch hell from both sides and in a sense clay caught that problem from both sides and it hurt him politically. At the same time he felt he had to do this because the nation required it. The nation had been founded on compromise. The constitution is a compromise and the nation did not compromise on these issues it would tear itself apart and so clay had an urgency behind everything he did and he compromised some of his principles for the sake of the union in the 1833 compromise and he gave up his beloved tariff issues and not having cessations break off and war like Andrew Jackson. At the same time, the greater thing that he would not compromise on is the union. Everybody wants to know the key it my heart, the union is the key to my heart. That was the thing he would never compromise on. We are talking about echoes of today. The american system which is something that he promoted had major component which is you just referenced on building american infrastructure and also the big debate over the National Bank. Were still discussing how effective these things are in todays economy. What was the country like then and what was the level of debate over issues such as the tariff and the National Bank . Very philosophical issues that were issued from the start of the nation and they were still issues when henry clay came around and theyre still issues today. Do we have a strong Central Government or strong state governments and he thought the National Government should do things for the nation and the states could not accomplish these and he spoke out on that and people spoke out against him for that and it hurt him politically, as well. He felt like these roads and these canals and internal improvements would hold the country together and they would fragment into northwesteast, south. I know no south, no east, no west and to him it was one country, indivisible and these were ways to keep them together and they would protect american industry, and he didnt say a tariff had to be there all of the time and they would help to grow to be sdprotrong and to coe against britain. And the time of the United States was being formed and hard money was the only legal currency and the government paper money and some banks did and they could be weak and the money could go away and it would go with the central bank that we would have until the Federal Reserve system would have in the 21st century and it hurt him politically when he supported that and he thought all of this was necessary for the good of the nation. Well, henry clay sounds like a pretty good guy, but you said he had a lot of enemies. He was also known to have some vices. What were his vices . You talk about the age that this was in, vices became more prominent the longer he lived as long as the political scene went because in his youth he was known as the person who liked to gamble. He said it was a very good political tool. He could sit down and when he was making the peace treaty in the war of 1812 and sit across from the british and play poker with them and see how much they would like to bluff or call his bluff. He loved to gamble as a lot of people did any is he would lose huge amounts of money and went back the next night and his wife lacretia when someone chatted about her husband being a man who liked to gamble she said, i dont know, he always wins. He liked to drink as most americans did at that time and a time when water was not very safe to drink, and he preferred wine, and he never got drunk, and he enjoyed it. It was the moral side of america that thought that clay was a womanizer, blassphemer and a drinker. Those were used over and over again. There was something to some of those and it was much exaggerated and it became the stereotype of henry clay. Clay died in 1852. A 50year career spans the first half of the 19th century in america, a great many years full of the formation of the nation and also sectionalism and the fights over slavery. We have so much to talk about and during this program we will be opening up our phone lines for your participation. Ill give you the phone numbers now if you want to get in the cue. It will be a little bit of time before we get to calls and if youre interested to be in line, 001 if you live in the eastern or central time zones. If you live in the pacific, 737002 and we welcome your question, comments and input into this period of political history, it makes the discussion much richer. We want to get to kentuckys junior senator rand paul about henry clay. Henry clays life is at best a mixed message. His compromises were over slavery. One could argue that he rose above sectional strive fe to preserve the unone and one could argue he was wrong and that his decisions on slavery to extend slavery were decisions that ultimately invited the war that came, that his compromises meant that during the 50 years of his legislative career he not only accepted slavery, but he accepted the slave trade. In the name of compromise, henry clay was by most accounts not a cruel master, but a master nonetheless of 48 slaves most of which they did not free during his lifetime and some of which he only freed belatedly 28 years after his death. He supported the fugitive slave law throughout his career. He compromised on the extension of slavery. When he was the speaker of the house, was there a vote on extending slavery and the vote was 8888. He came down extraordinarily from the speakers chair to vote in favor of extending slavery into arkansas. Before we eulogize henry clay, we should acknowledge and appreciate the contrast with contemporaries who refuse to compromise. William lloyd garrison toiled at a small abolitionist press for 30 years refusing to compromise with clay, with clays desire to send the slaves back to africa. Garrison was beaten, chased by mobs and imprisoned for his principled stand. Frederick douglas traveled the country at the time. He was a free black man, but he traveled at great personal risk throughout the countryside and he proved ultimately that he was the living, breathing example that intellect and leadership could come from a recently freed slave. And we are back and with another guest that i would like to introduce. Alistair turley is professor of louisville and welcome to our discussion of henry clay. Before we get into the area which you have spent your scholarship for henry clay. Talk to me about your impressions about henry clay and what are your views of this man . I think the image of him as a rock star and popular candidate for a political figure is very impressive. Hes a lightning rod and gets people fired up either for or against them. He has the ability to inspire and even on the abolitionist issues he takes more heat than people, senators who were actually more john c. , cal hoon, for instance. Clay is probably more talked about, written upon than some of the prominent political figures. We havent explained what it was, and explain to us he was a gefrnt the idea of slifry. For his time period he would have been described as extremely liberal and an emancipationist, and he didnt think africanamericans could survive in america as citizens. So the whole idea of the American Colonization Society and freedom outside of the United States sort of became his platform, that he really stuck to through the his presidency, although he never im sorry. Im making him president , throughout his political career he never did deny the fact that he felt africanamericans should have their freedom. He just was not willing to risk he knew the political damage, antislavery, and what he did . He was a slave holder. And that caused him great grief all his life because in the north hed be criticized as a slave holder and in the south he hed be criticized for his antislavery views. Had he taken one side or the other, he got elected with the northern votes and had clay done that and had he freed the slaves 2 would have med him a pol pigz tigz. The yet was forth it despite the criticisms and you what the member of states, askee was recording, and he still holds slaves and emancipates some. The most famous, charlotte who is his servant in washington who doesnt want to return to kentucky when he wants to come back and who stays and he literally she takes him to court and loses. He also gets credit for freeing charles and some of the other slaves here on the estate. He buys slave, too. He spends time at the market here in lexington purchasing slaves and is known for the quality of slaves that he purchases and again, hes one of those people thats dual nature. On the one of those things that people used to talk about slavery in kentucky and it didnt really matter. It was still slavery and an abolitionist came to kentucky and said slavery said it is the mildest and it causes very heart to sticken. Someone heard the scream from the death knell of liberty, ask much, i want sment are spin more time on the, and Andrew Jackson, his nemesis, Daniel Webster, james monroe, jansis scott key when wrote the starspangled banner, how key was the american colonization in the country . It was extremely popular and clay is considered one of the major if not the founder and he gets federal funding for it to buy the land and library for the resettlement. He promotes the idea of resettling africanamericans in haiti and canada. He he is known for this. This is what he becomes lightning rod in the Free Black Community in the north and this is what causes them to unite against henry clay in the sense that why should we have to leave the United States . Its popular in the White Community and not popular in the south. The library was a death trap. Yes. And the people in america that had been slaves or were slaves, their fore fathers were here and they were more american in a sense, why should we leave home . No connections to africa whatsoever and the fact that clay was trying to remove primarily free blacks. The Colonization Society represented the removal of free blacks and not slaves. That was another controversial part. I want to introduce a third person to our discussion any interprets the life of henry clay and we have a special guest, avery malown who shares the director of tour operations and before you take our viewers, lets get a sense of the place, abbe is wig in the rink about a mile and a half from downtown and new circle road and we are in a beautiful residential area of lexington. How many acres does the house have today and how many did henry clay have at his zenith . Today we sit on 17 acres here at ashland and we have the contract for the first 125 acres that henry clay purchased. At its height the farm was 670 acres. And we should learn a little bitmore abo bit more about his family before we go on tour here. He and his wife had how many children and did they all live here . They had 11 children. However, they did not all live here at the same time. There was a lot of tragedy in the family. All six of henry and lucretias daughters would die. Only two made it into early adulthood and one of the sons died as well during henry and lucretias lifetime. The house interprets henry clay at what period of his life . The house would interpret henry clay throughout his lifetime, when he was born and go until his death in 1852. We talk about the span of his life, his family and political career as well as his farming and legal career. What were going to see now is what visitors to ashland would see as they tour the first floor of the estate. Take us on a bit of a tour. Were in the foyer right now. This is where the clay family would have welcomed their guests and the clay family established a long legacy of welcoming guests here at ashland. We have the drawing room where the family entertained their guests. This is where were filming tonight. Many of the quests who have come to this room. And we also have the dining room where you can see lucretias Ice Cream Service set on the table. The orange and white China Service was given to her by her sister and lucretia was known for her strawberry ice cream. I would like to take you next into the study. In the original house, this room was used by henry clay like a home office for his three careers. Henry, of course, was a farmer, a lawyer and a statesman. I would like to draw attention to henry clays portfolio and document box. Currently we have the portfolio on loan to us from the Supreme Court and henry clay would have used these items when he went to washington, d. C. We have a pair of stirrups that say h. Clay. He believed in breeding the best to the best. Because of this philosophy, 11 Kentucky Derby winners can draw their bloodline back here to ashland. Next we have the library. Henry clay began his legal career in 1797. We have his law license up here on the wall. And this was i should to him in 1797 in virginia. Henry clay would turn to his legal career as a source of revenue or income and his legal career and his great oratory really helped define who he was. Well, we will be back with you throughout the program. Youre going to be available to answer some of our viewer questions and take us on a tour of other places in the house. Thank you very much for this view of ashland in henry clays period. Who are some of the famous people he may have hosted here. Several president s came here. William Henry Harrison met with clay here. Martin van buren came here. Did they talk about trying to make the texas issue go away because they both issued letters later on that said they opposed the annexation of texas. Did they meet in rooms like this and talk over that . We dont know. Basically, a lot of famous people including lafayette and others have been through this area and all of those people wanted to see henry clay, all of the foreign visitors who came to america wanted to come to lexington, the athens of the west because it was the Political Center of the west with henry clay here. Were going to mix in our first viewer phone call. Its from brian in springfield, illinois. Welcome to our conversation about henry clay. Caller thank you for this series. Im calling from springfield, illinois, with a nonlincolnthemed question. I wanted to ask the panel about 1824 and the corrupt bargain charge against henry clay when he backed John Quincy Adams and accepted the secretary of state position. Do you think thats the reason why were referring to henry clay as contender instead of president . The 1824 election. That was used against henry clay the rest of his life and it was one of his Major Political mistakes. There were four people in that race, the constitution says the top three votegetters will go to the house of representatives where each state will have one vote. Henry clay ended up number four on that list. He probably should have been on the list because if he had gotten in as the speaker of the house at the time, he would have been able to use his popularity to win the presidency. But he didnt. He became the president maker, not the president. Before he left kentucky, before he left ashland, he had said he favored John Quincy Adams for the presidency. At that time jackson called him general and clay always feared the knee polins of the world. He feared that america would elect these generals and they would take over and become a dictator. So clay went to washington knowing he was going to support adams. That may have been his best compromise was getting enough states to vote for adams to be president because adams didnt care nine states and 13 were needed. Clay did that. Adams was elected. Clay made his big mistake. He accepted the offer of the secretary of state position from John Quincy Adams. Half of his people said he should do it, half of his advisers said he shouldnt. He cant turn it down. That was used against him as a corrupt bargain. Andrew jackson was his great nemesis. What was jacksons position on slavery . Much more hostile than probably one of the first president s. He marched into florida to clear out what he considered a threat from florida. Hes one of his major campaigns into florida was the issue of free blacks with british support living in florida along with native americans who were raiding into american territories, taking slaves out of the United States. So hes very hostile toward any idea of freedom, much more so, than our president s. Next telephone is from scott who is watching us in boston. Hello, scott. Caller how are you . Great, thanks. You have a henry clay question . Caller i went to high school in east port, maine, kind of a cool, foggy island there. Very close to canada. And we all know in east port that henry clay had insisted after the war of 1812, the island had been taken by the british, he had insisted when he negotiated the end of the treaty that the island be returned to the United States even when John Quincy Adams was willing to sort of let the let canada have the island and im wondering if any of the historianing would know why he was so adamant on the return of east port to america . I dont know if you know the specifics of scott, im not an expert on moose island. I do know that clay when making the treaty in the war of 1812, he took the strongest position of all the american delegates. He wanted america to have a strong position. Adams was afraid they wouldnt get a treaty. Clay tended to try to get everything he could and im not sure on moose island. I hope theres another historian out there that could tell us. We talked before we got started live about clays antagonism towards the british. What can you tell us about that as a general point in his philosophy . Well, he felt, of course, that the british were still trying to hold on, punish america with the war of 1812. He definitely wanted a war with england. He felt america, despite the fact we had a very small army, small navy, could still beat england. I dont know if that was a source of pride or ego, or what that was with clay. I often wondered if it had something to do with the british asking africanamericans to fight against americans during the war of 1812, if that could have been a part of it. There was also, when he was a young man, and apparently his fathers grave had just been dug, some british soldiers came into the household and they were trying to raid the household and they thrust their swords into the freshly dug grave thinking there might be goods that were hidden there. He had an antipathy towards the British Military very early. When he got to britain after the peace treaty had been signed, he stayed over and met all the british important people and came back with a different view of the british. He still feared them and thought they would try to bully america. He became known as prince hal because he was associated with royalty too much. Lets talk about the 1832 election. We were talking about Andrew Jackson, 1832 when he faced off against him for the presidency. In 1832, it was one of the elections that clay couldnt win. Jackson was popular still. The things that make historians upset with Andrew Jackson like his indian policy, policy towards africanamericans and groups like that, those were positives for Andrew Jackson in his era. In 1832, clay faced the fact there was a third party out there that would end up taking a sizable percentage of the vote, mostly from the whig party, or the party that would become the whigs. That was a party known as the Antimasonic Party. The whole issue of masonry with movies about it, Antimasonic Party thought clay was a mason . Clay was a mason and Andrew Jackson was a mason. This third party took votes away from him. He probably had a hard time winning anyway. Jackson was popular. The bank issue came up where clays favorite the recharter of the National Bank of america, jackson vetoed it and clay thought it was going to be a popular issue. That people would go to him and say this is the right thing to do. But he didnt realize that jacksons veto message was a great political message. It made Andrew Jackson speak for the people. And clay couldnt win on that issue. And so clay lost on several levels there how close was the election . Clay got 49 electoral votes, jackson got 219. We have lots more details on our website, other video that you wont be seeing during our live production and we have details about their losing president ial elections and the outcomes. Cspan. Org contenders. Avery, what do you have for us . Were in the henry clay bedroom right now and you can see the bed behind me. This is henry clays 1830s bed and we have a letter where he talks about how comfortable this bed was and then i didnt even have bedbugs. Upstairs, we have henry clays dueling pistols. These were purchased in 1799 and later altered a bit. We believe these went to war with his son in mexico. Henry was in two duels and the duel with John Randolph takes us back to henry clay as speaker of the house. When henry was chosen as speaker of the house, he was chosen because they thought, here is a man who can meet John Randolph on the floor or field. And it happened that they met on the field. John randolph compared henry clay to a clay to a character in tom sawyer. He challenged John Randolph to a duel. Randolph was a great shot with pistols and clay was not. But randolph decided that he didnt want to deprive lucretia or the nation of henry clay and decided to shoot at the ground. Fortunately, nobody was seriously injured in either of henry clays duels. How long was dueling part of american political life . 1860s. And henry clay knew he wasnt a great shot, why did he get involved in this . It was honor. Clay had a sense of honor and if your honor was attacked, you had to defend it. Sometimes he would defend it through newspaper stories and letters. But sometimes it got so bad he thought the only way to defend it was to challenge someone. And if they answered the challenge, then he twice went to the dueling grounds. That would be used against him as well. Randolph was particularly this is senator John Randolph of roanoke, right . A man who was very excentric. Had one of the great quotes about henry clay. He said that henry clay is like a rotten mackerel in the moonlight, he both shines and stinks. Thats a great vision there. And randolph, you know, disliked clay for a lot of the things he did, but he admired clay because clay had the ability to do things and even in the last part of his life, randolph is a dying man wanted to come to the floor of the senate so he said he could listen to his magnificent voice one more time. David, welcome. Caller thank you. I have one quick comment. Anybody who thinks that todays politics is overly divided should really take a look at the political verbiage in the jacksonian era. But then the question is this, is that do you find it a bit ironic that the republican party, which was formed out of the whig party, has evolved from a party founded by henry clay on the basis of public works and federal investment and local projects into one that opposes all of that and particularly with Mitch Mcconnells comments . Thank you. Hi, david. Basically, the whig party evolved into the republican party, Abraham Lincoln himself had been a whig and became a republican. And had many of the aspects of the whig party but in modern day parties have aspects of both of those. The Democratic Party has a lot of the central factions of the whig party. Some of the republican businessoriented sections come from the whig philosophy. So in a sense, henry clay lives on in both parties and maybe doesnt live on enough in both parties. He still lives on in both parties. Comments on that question . And certainly the you mentioned 1830s. You have the rise of the antislavery new England Antislavery Society and he does develop some democratic ideals. He is against the idea of a gag rule in congress which many of the southerners and northerners want for the sake of freedom. He definitely overrules that idea. He wants these petitions, even though he doesnt support it. He wants it heard. We really havent spent time on one of the first of the three great compromises that hes known for and thats the missouri compromise. Will you talk a little bit about the Politics Around that. The missouri wanted to come into the union what time frame . 1820. Missouri wants to come into the union. Question is, will it be a slave state or not. Maine is about to enter at the same time. It ends up that the two come in, one as slave and one as free. But that wasnt going to be decided at the beginning. And the whole question of slavery is like a far bell in the night as Thomas Jefferson said. When the question arises, its been there, its smoldering like a fire and the missouri compromise feeds that fire and brings it to the forefront and theres debates and debates. Where will slavely will it continue . Will it go on . And theres attempts to limit it completely. Clay is not really the man who makes the first compromise, the first missouri compromise. Its a lot of the ideas were here. It came from other people. Its not really his compromise. Once its through, missouri passes a law in the part of the constitution that says free blacks will not be able to go to missouri and american citizens can go anywhere. And so this is the compromise that clay Everything Else is getting ready to fall apart. And clay works at a very convoluted answer to that that satisfies everybody and satisfies nobody. At the same time, it ends the crisis and he hopes that slavery will not be an issue because to clay, slavery is the real thorn in his side. He can never come up with a solution on that and if its if its a wound, its a selfinflicted wound because clay was a slave holder. He starts out that people believing that hes on the north side. And then over time, hes hated by both the north and south. Its a nowin situation for him. We are halfway through our 90minute discussion on the life and times of the contender, henry clay, who ran for the white house throughout most of his political career, five times in total, three times as his partys nominee and unsuccessful all the while. Were going to take a short break and be come back at his home in lexington, kentucky, to talk more. And welcome back to ashland, the home of henry clay. Its been preserved and is open for tours. We hope that you will be inspired to come and visit after our 90minute discussion tonight about henry clay. Let me reintroduce you to our guests, we have the professor of history here in the state of kentucky, georgetown. Tell us about your college, will you please. Yes, im a professor at the department of pan african studies. And you were colleagues at georgetown . We were colleagues at Georgetown College and thats where i teach American History now. Where is georgetown, kentucky . Its 12 miles north of lexington. When you were colleagues, did you debate a lot . We did. We did. But its hard to debate someone like jim. He definitely is a scholar on kentucky history. I just try to keep up. And 25 years as kentuckys state historian. What does the job entail . Its basically a selfdefined job. It involves writing the history as a state and i try to do that. It involves working with people who are writing about kentuckys history and helping them, aiding them, offering advise, suggestions, trying to stay out of their way sometimes. And it also entails going around and giving talks and appearing in things like this in public to tell the story of the state and the people who lived here. Avery malone is with us. Shes the director of tour operations here at ashland. Would you tell us about how many people come to this place every year, how its financed, and how its operated. It varies by season how many people youll find visiting ash land. The tourist comes throughout the summer. We have somewhere around 15,000 a year come to see us. We are financed through a variety of methods and means and were very fortunate to have all of our visitors and all of the friends of ashland who donate to keep us open and for us to tell the public about henry clay. What year did the place open for tours . We opened in 1950 for tours and this was only two years after nanette died. She was henry clays great granddaughter. And she preserved ashland by starting the Henry Clay Memorial Foundation. Two years after she passed away and her son lived here until 1959. After he moved out, we opened throughout the house. All three of our guests available for your questions. Lets take another one. This is from shelby watching us in sacramento, california. Caller yes, hello. Im also a great grandson of a mr. Lawyer who had helped with the Antislavery Movement before i get to my main question i would like to say that he had a Hardware Store and when slaves would come into town and they needed to be housed, his secret and magical phrase to his neighbors were, we have some twopenny nails in. And my grandmother knew that there was some kind of magical significance to that. And so when she had a horse was given a horse as a young lady, she named the horse two penny nails. Perhaps we can remember all of those slaves that were able to find freedom and what a great country this is and what a terrific thing to have cspan. Im grateful to participate in this series. Great. We appreciate it. We do need your question because we have a lot of callers in line. Caller yes, yes. I saw masonry emblems in louisville, kentucky. Could you tell us, please, what Association Henry clay may have had with that city . Thank you. Okay. The city of louisville. Clays son, henry clay jr. Lived in louisville and lexington and he used his wifes money to buy a lot of property when louisville was on the rise. He became wealthy as a young man. That son ended up being killed in the mexican war, killed by mexican lances. But clay would visit there and help his son and it was a rival of lexington, though, because louisville clips lexington in population. The riverboats there made louisville the artery of communication and transportation, lexington was in a back water now because its not on a water system. And so his connection with louisville was a mixed one. But it generally supported the whig side. Next phone call is from willie in columbus, ohio. Caller i would like to note any connection, any association, ive always been under the impression former heavyweight champion clay always said that was his slave name. Any association at all . Thank you. Well, certainly, the name clay stands out for americans, he ran an antislavery newspaper. Its my understanding and maybe jim knows better than i, but i dont think there was a Family Connection with clay. They did a story for tthe nw yorker once and the man known as muhammad ali, he wwas named the abolitionist leader, but his family that he came from was from western kentucky. They just took that name because the distant cousin of henry clay was an abolitionist and antislavery man and they thought that was a good name to take. Henry clay tries for the whig party nomination. He defeated by whom . William Henry Harrison. And he offered clay the Vice President ial spot . He offered his choice of cabinet chance. I was thinking, here was his chance to get this close. It would have been why did he offer his choice of cabinet position . They had been rivals. Heres a man who said he hasnt voted for 30 years when he was seeking the presidency. He had some positions in indiana territory, as some history of accomplishments but not a great deal. And clay is expecting to get the its a time when the whigs think theyre going to win because america is in a depression. The whig policies look like the things you need to get you out of the depression. Whoever they put out there is going to have a very good shot at beating incumbent. Clay wants it. This is one of those examples where henry clay is not a good politician. Hes good in congress. But hes not a good manager. He doesnt have a campaign manager. He trusts his own instincts too much. And hes basically outmaneuvered by people from new york who is backing harrison and they get a rule changed in the convention itself so that clay who has a majority of the votes, instead of staying who is going to vote by number, theyre going to vote by state delegation. That negated clays advantage and loses out to harrison. But harrison realized that clay was important in the whig party. He wants to make peace. Thats why he offers clay these positions. But clay basically says he would rather stay where he is. He thinks he has more important things to do there and he doesnt want to be associated with the harrison presidency, really. Our next caller is bill here in lexington, kentucky. Hi, bill. Caller im a teacher at Henry Clay High School which is right up the street where you all are sitting right now. I would like to ask whether you think henry clays reputation as a compromiser hurt his chances of being president and whether or not his losses as president , a threetime loser, made it possible for him to have a greater impact and a more positive one on the country through his long legislative career. Thank you. Im going to ask all three of our guests to answer that question. Well start with you. I think being a compromiser, yes. By 1840, it does hurt him. He is unwilling to change his position on texas so that updates the southerners. His stand on antislavery updates new england and the northers. I think it hurts him more than help him. Avery, his years as a compromiser ultimately hurt him in his quest for the presidency . What do you tell people here . Im unsure, but i know being a compromiser is not universally popular when the present time when someone seeking a position of power, people usually want you to take a strong stance. Emerson said that a foolish consistency is a hobgoblin of small minds. He was not consistent all of his life. He opposed the bank of the United States and then favored one later on. He changed a little on different positions over time. He gave up the tariff compromise so his enemies used that against him and said he wasnt consistent. He would compromise and trim his sales to anything. I dont think that was the case. He was willing to take a change and make a change and say that he had been wronged. And thats hard for a politician to do and it cost you and it cost him. We had an earlier caller that wanted that referenced the treaty and we talked about henry clays views about the british. Were going to see the coat in just a meant. What was the treaty of gents significance . It gets worse because they thought the british would be fighting napoleon but napoleon is out of the way. The americans are not negotiating from a place of strength n. A sen strength. In a sense, they get one of the best delegations ever. It draws out and takes a long time to come about. But they given the fact they didnt have a lot to work with, they came in with a strong treaty for america. I didnt hurt that Andrew Jackson won the battle of new orleans after the treaty had been sized and the news had not reached america. It was like the two things came at the same time, so it looked like they won the war even though the treaty had been signed before the battle had been fought. You have the jacket. Can you tell us the significance. This is the diplomatic issue jacket that henry clay would have given. This jacket is very significant in that its one of the few pieces in the collection that we have that belong to henry clay. This jacket also served as an art fact during the time that the kentucky a m was here. They used this jacket as an artifact then as well. Were going to go back to telephone calls. Next is michael. Good evening. My family and i grew up in milwaukee, wisconsin. In the 50s we went to henry clay elementary school. I used to come to louisville and lexington on business and i didnt realize you guys were there. I have a simple question. This very bestselling biography on him called henry clay the essential american is very popular and im wondering if youve read it and would it be a good choice for me to learn about henry clay or do you have Something Else to suggest . Thank you very much. Well, we just happened to have the book here. Its one of the several books available in the bookstore. They have a number of biographies. But im going to ask both of you for just starting out, what would be the book you would pick up on henry clay . Thats the most recent biography and it has a lot of strengths on his human side of henry clay. And its the newest biography. If you want political emphasis, if you want to start out on something smaller, theres Daniel Walker howe did a book many years ago about the american whig party. Thats a good introduction on henry clay and he has a very good view. If you want to compare clay and calhoun and webster, Merle Peterson did a book in the 1970s and its a good balanced view on all men. Of course, lindsay apple has done a book on the family legacy of henry clay and apples book is excellent and it also takes clays family beyond just his lifetime into the almost to the present. What would you pick up for him or the period . For him, the triumphant, it does bring in Daniel Webster and some of the other important figures at the time. For africanamericans, it puts it into perspective as far as whats going on in the country and what the great debates about. Ive not read the newer version. Im waiting for jims book that is coming out. That will be the next one that i will pick up to read. When and what . Its called the great rejected. Perfect timing. Its a quote that was said about clay at the end of his life, but he was a great rejected by the people but stood out above them. And im about to finish writing it this month, earlier next month and i have to go through the publication process. I thought we could get it finished before the contenders series was open. The current speaker of the house has many of his powers that he can look back to the speakership of henry clay. He spoke about henry clay recently. Lets listen to speaker john boehner. Henry clay was the first what ill call strong speaker of the house, the real leader of the house. When our country was founded and the congress was put together, the first speakers over the first 20 years or so came out of the English Parliament system and they were more of a referee. Didnt have any real power. But clay was the first real speaker of the house that had some power. And, you know, theres a lot of things you can say about roles of the speaker, henry clay was clearly a very strong speaker. And if you look at the period from 1820 to 1860, there was no one person in the United States more responsible for holding our union together than henry clay. By the way, that was from an event that was organized by the folks here at ashland where they invited all living speakers to come and talk about the role of speakers. It was held at transylvania university. How did henry clay enhance the powers of the speaker . The force of his personality. I think the no one wanted to debate him. Certainly he had the force to win the argument. I think that alone had great influence and power. I dont know if any other speaker would be comparative he also understood, as the power of committee assignments. The committees basically he understood that the speaker had the power to put the people he wanted on the committees. When something important he was known to be a fair man as a speaker. That was very important to both sides of the aisle respected him and his opinions. He was never overwritten in his rulings and he basically was fair in the makeup of the committees but when he knew there was a certain issue coming up, you can see a slight inclination to put the friends to that issue, so he understood very early that. He changed the the rules changed with his backing. He gave the speaker more power to cut off debate, limit debate, things like that, that allowed him to be a much more important figure than anybody before. But it was his force of and his will that made him as important as anything else. Next telephone call is from raymond. Hi, raymond. Raymond, were going to move on. Lets take a call from lonnie. Youre on the air. Caller lincoln once referred to clay as his ideal of a statesman. I believe the two men had never met. However, recently, i came across a web page which purported to show a book that had been inscribed by clay to lincoln. Did clay and lincoln ever meet . Louisville did he meet him we dont know, basically. There was one person who left a memoir about the turn of the light between the 19th and 20th century that said that that person had seen the two in lexington. Abraham lincoln married mary todd lincoln. Mary todd was from lexington and her family was closely aligned with the clays. Her family knew the clays. Lincoln came to kentucky several times in connection with the family and the states that followed it. And he certainly heard henry clay speak. Whether they met is unknown. Cant you imagine what a great time it would have been had you have to think they tried to met, if nothing else. Had lincoln come to ashland and the two of them would sit here in the parlor and clay would Say Something and mr. Lincoln would say, that reminds me of a story and henry clay would say, that reminds me of a story and they would go back and forth. But lincoln never said he met clay. So i think thats very possibly that he would have said that had he met him. He did say clay was his ideal of a statesman. In 1860, he took four things with him to write the inaugural with and one of those four items was henry clays speech in the compromise of 1850. Clays effect on Abraham Lincoln was important. Lincoln said his views of henry clay are the views of Abraham Lincoln as well. Lets listen to a question from charles from california. Caller hello. My question is this, im a kentuckian born in maysville, kentucky, the home of rosemary clooney, and i understand from the panel your two guests is that henry clay is considered the favorite son of kentucky. And although he and lincoln were members of the whig party, i dont understand how he could be the favorite son and not Abraham Lincoln who when he met said, you are that little lady that started this great war. And she is never mentioned, nor is uncle tom who is i consider the greatest christian in american literature, never of them are mentioned as being great in their time. On the times in which they lived and even today, theyre influence is greatly felt, especially by many africanamericans who are historically informed. Why is not can you respond, please . Abraham lincoln, he may have started off being a friend of kentucky. But when the emancipation proclamation is issued, he became a much hated figure here in kentucky. So henry clay who considered himself a westerner but many southerners would choose him over Abraham Lincoln who is considered a traitor to the kentucky cause. You mention Harriet Beecher stou, we read and study her, but hes much more popular in new england and the north. Lincoln in 1860 ones on the northern ticket received five votes in his wifes home county. Even his inlaws didnt vote for him. He received 1,000 votes in the entire state of kentucky. To vote for lincoln in 1860 for kentuckians would have been voting for a communist in the 1950s. He was a red republican and didnt have any support here. And kentucky at the beginning of the war wanted union and slavery. When he decides that the war by the middle of the war is going to be a war against slavery, finally, that turns many kentuckians against the administration. And they become almost proconfederate by the end of the war. Lincoln and his party are on the outs in kentucky for a long period of time. Its only in the 20th century that kentucky starts to reclaim Abraham Lincoln with a building of a memorial to his birthplace and the Lincoln Commission that was created. Kentucky has claimed lincoln. But he was on the wrong side for most kentuckians after the war. How far from where we are physically is the lincoln birthplace . An hour, 15 minute drive. In that time period, how long would it have taken to cross . 25 miles took all day sometimes in the mud and mire of those days. Thats why he was in favorite of building better roads and canals. Avery malone, we had a brief picture of an artifact that you have here in the collection which has an inscription to Abraham Lincoln. Can you tell us what we were looking at . Yes, this book is called the life and speeches of henry clay and theres an inscription in it that says to Abraham Lincoln with constant regard to friendship, ashland h. Clay, 1847. We believe this book was given to Abraham Lincoln from clay as a gift to lincoln in exchange for what lincoln would have given a condolence gift to henry clay after his son was killed in the Mexican American war. But we dont know those were delivered personally . We dont. Theres no documentation to say that they have met. We know at least that henry clay did know Abraham Lincoln. There must have been some type of relationship based on this artifact. We have a little less than 20 minutes left in our 90 minutes on henry clay, the first of our 14 contenders in our look at American History. Lets take our next telephone call from louisville. This is rob. Hi, rob. Caller actually, its robin. I have three questions and ill try to go fast and get out of your way. Clays contradictions. Im curious to know whether he changed his mind or was it political posturing in their opinions. Second question, another caller mentioned the two cacious clays. Is it known whether or not henry clay had any known slave descendents like jefferson . Third question, politicians have political lineage and im curious to know if its known if any other predominant politicians share henry clays lineage. Have you been here to the house . We lost her. Abolitionists and whether or not his position changed or his posturing . I think it would be wrong to call henry clay an abolitionist. He was not an abolitionist. He was for the idea of emancipation. No, he never changed his position on that. As we discussed earlier, especially in the election of 1840, it hurts him. The fact that he doesnt he tries to waffle and straddle the fence. He never backs away from his idea of emancipation. In 1799 clay speaks out for the first time publicly in kentucky against slavey in a letter to the local paper. 50 years later, when he does the same thing again, when kentucky is trying to adopt a new constitution and theyre hoping to get slavey abolished and it doesnt happen, he takes the same stance. Hes pretty consistent. Over that 50 years, the world has changed around him. His views were still the same. Her question about cashios clay . Was the question about whether or not their im not aware of that. Whether or not he had any descentents that were africanamericans . There was one story that appeared 40 years after henry clays death that a woman said she had been a mistress of henry clay. But i have found nothing to substantiate that story and there were several henry clays in this area. It may have been she was mixed up with somebody else. Theres a list you can compile a list of the clays slaves and i didnt see her name anywhere. He had an illegitimate offspring but it was in russia. The offspring showed up at his door one day of the home here in kentucky and the shock of that caused his wife to eventually divorce him. The last question do you remember her exact question . If anybody politicians have the same connection have any connection to clay as far as being related to clay. Im not sure that i know theres no Family Dynasty in politics . I dont think so. Let me move on. Were going to run out of time here. The 1844 election against james polk. Clay was successful in securing the whig nomination. Everything ive read about it said it was one of the dirtiest campaigns conducted. What were the issues or was it real personal politics or both . Clay goes in as a favorite on this for a change. And james k. Polk is the first dark horse candidate for the presidency. The democrats are scrambling from behind. Clay has been organizing a campaign for two years. Theres campaign biographies, sheet musics with clays picture and names, all kinds of ribbons and buttons and medals that you can do. So the democrats basically coming from behind have to attack and they attack clay pretty heavily on all of those issues. 1844 collection is a perfect storm of bad things have been to henry clay. He writes too many letters and says too many things that cause him to look like hes waffling on the issue of texas annexation. All of these issues of drinking, gambling, ka rowsing comes back against him and is used against clay and i think its more of the combination of things that defeat clay. The standard view is that the texas annexation issue, they say we need to annex texas. The northern abolitionists oppose that because it would bring war. Clay opposes annexation unless it takes place on a peaceful basis. Hes going against americas manifest destiny. Going against the National Mood and i dont think that defeats him. He wins votes because of his stand on that. Theres a whole slew of issues and the issue of fraud and bad luck and things like that. And do you hear a lot about this being an example of the early example of the politics of personal destruction . Was henry clay a practitioner of those kind of politics . He was his own worst enemy. He trusted the wrong people i think in the 1844 campaign. He doesnt listen to advisers. This is still a problem for him in 1844. He believes his own press that he is the favorite and he doesnt see the challengers as serious. So hes not really campaigning. So, yeah, he shoots himself in the foot a couple times. He opposed texas annexation predicting it would lead to war with mexico. He was correct. His son goes to fight in that war and what happens to his son . His son is killed in the war. His son lost a wife a few years before and it was almost was very depressed for a period of time. Its almost like he was trying to go off to fight to forget as much as anything else and hes wounded and he tells his men to leave him and to retreat and they do and hes killed. Some parts of that are sent back to clay from the killing of his son. It hits him hard and clay makes his antiwar speech. He says i support the troops but i oppose the war. And its a speech that many people consider very courageous speech at the time because it was going against a lot of the National Mood in the south, particularly, which is one of his constituents areas. And lets take another call. This is molly. Bridgetown, new jersey. Caller hello. I was wondering if your panelists could talk a little bit about the relationship between John Quincy Adams and henry clay . Thank you. Molly, clay and adams were a very mismatched couple. Adams is the new england puritan background. He could only be happy in some ways talking to himself and even then not happy. Hes critical, hes a man of create talent. He speaks many foreign languages. Hes well versed for the presidency. The son of a president and theres a great passage that adams is getting up at 4 00 in the morning and henry clay is coming in. He looks at this and says, of course, why is it wrong for him clay coming in late. You could say its the other way around. Henry clay, as weve talked about on this program, is a different kind of person. And they constantly tweaked each other and talked to each other and didnt like each other in a lot of ways. But they respected each other and when clay makes John Quincy Adams president of the United States, everybody expected they would fight and break away from each other, but clay is a very loyal secretary of state and adams gains more respect for clay, clay gains more respect for adams. They may not have been friends but were respectful the rest of their lives. This is a good time to look at one of ashlands most prized possessions. Will you tell us about it . We have the washington goblet here and this was the item of greatest patriotic inspiration in henry clays home. Its chipped or broken and this is how henry clay received it. And he wrote about how he had received this from an elderly lady as a gift and it belonged to washington through most of the war. He used this like an artifact in his house and really used it to connect you see to our early nationhood and to venuer rate george washington. He felt he was a great inspiration to our country and hoped to inspire patriotism in people who visited here at ashland. Were quickly running out of time here. Since we have you let me ask you about henry clay and his wife and how often they lived here together. He had a long political career requiring him to be in washington so frequently. Did his family move to washington with them or remain behind most of the time. His family did go with henry clay to washington early on. Around the 1830s was the last time that lucretia would go to washington. She had plenty here on the farm to keep her busy. There were children and grandchildren here to occupy her time. Lucretia was never one to enjoy the limelight. She was not heavily into fashion and attention. So she did enjoy the solace that ashland provided here. In the later part of henry clays life, i believe he was gone as much as he was home and some have surmised that henry clay was addicted to travel which is one thing we probably would all like to do more of. But henry was gone frequently to campaign, henry was gone working in washington, and on trips, for instance, to see his daughter in new orleans. Next call is from kentucky. This is gerald. Caller hi, there, how are you all doing . Really enjoying the program. My name is watkins and henry clay was my seventh cousin. His grandmother was a sister to my fifth great grandfather. So im proud of henry clay and that connection. But my connection is, the three times he won the nomination, it seems like the timing was really not good for his candidacy. They seemed doomed. Do you believe there was a president ial election during his time of prom nance that he could have won the presidency . I think he could have won in 1840 reasonably and in 1848, Zachary Taylor is going to be the whig nominee and henry clay opposed any general, and clay particularly opposed Zachary Taylor because taylor had done nothing other than be a general. He had nothing in his background and he had never voted even before he ran for president. So clay very reluctantly tries to get the nomination in 1848 and fails. But clay got that nomination, i think he would have known too. Clay was quoted by someone as saying that the years he could get the nomination, his friends are deserting him. Clay saw that as almost a betrayal of all the things he had done. Since weve fast forwarded to 1848, lets move ahead to 1850. Henry clays last big effort on Public Policy and the compromise. What was that compromise all about . Set the stage for us what was happening in this country. 1850, this decision about the expansion of slave how slave states, whether they come in as free or slave holding, the idea of strengthening the fugitive slave law becomes one of the breaking points. The idea of california, whether or not the decision ends up being california can make its own decision about whether or not slaves can be held in the state, missouri comes in new mexico and arizona, exactly. So, again, we are now truly into the manifest destiny where United States reaches from coast to coast. For africanamericans, the strengthening of the slave law becomes a major issue in american politics leading up to the civil war. We have about four minutes left. But on the compromise of 1850, its important, henry clay was not successful. He was he was reaching the end of his strength and health. How did it turn out . It says something about henry clay. He comes back to the senate after his defeat in 1844. He had been at home and leaving the quiet of ashland and he has nothing to gain. Hes not going to run for president anymore. But he comes out of retirement to hope to save the country in his mind one more time in 1850 with the compromise. And in missouri, he broken all of the pieces up and got it passed one by one. In 1850, he listens to something and they put it all together and say lets pass this all at once. Clay goes off to rhode island to take the waters and the bill does pass under steven douglas. He thought this would bring peace in his lifetime. It did because he dies two years later. Within a decade of that, the civil war begins. Henry clay dies in 1852. Hes buried where . In lexington in the cemetery. We have some video of his grave site. His funeral was really quite an event, 1,000mile train of course his trusted servant, charles, is still in the at his side to the very end with the funeral pyre. Hes viewed people come from all over. The training are coming in and thousands of people in lexington for the funeral. So its national news. I think the thing about that monument, theres monuments to clay, i think hes got more images in the capital in the Nations Capital than any other individual. Atlantic magazine in 2006 put him as one of the 100 most influential americans of all time. I think its the fact that henry clay kept a divided nation together, the nation is still one nation united, still a working democracy and still trying very hard to live up to the spirit of henry clay. We have time for a quick call from bowling green, kentucky. Caller my question, why do you suppose henry clay was not interested in a womens perspective on slavery and the reason why i ask that question, european Victorian Woman by t traveled to america in 1834 or 1835 and she im going im going to interrupt you. We have very little time. Shes sent by britain, so thats enough for clay not to like her. But i would certainly say, just his southern principles about womens place. Yeah, he loved women, had women been able to vote, henry clay would have been president many times. By all estimates, women of america liked henry clay. Despite these rumors, everybody uniformly says women liked henry clay, would have voted for him. She came here, liked henry clay but didnt like his children. So that was part of the nation in his time, too, the contradiction around henry clay. Would you close with your views . He was important for the country, because he polarized and made america make a decision on slavery. The 1850 compromise, which did pass, africanamericans fled to canada. It encreased the Public Awareness of slavery in america. So that was his major contribution, i think. We just skimmed the surface of henry clays political career, our first of 14 contenders, men who didnt achieve their quest for the presidency but changed American History. Im going to say thanks to our guests here, and the tour director for helping us better understand henry clays life. Also have a couple of other quick thank yous. The Henry Clay Memorial Foundation for preserving ashland and for sharing it with all of us around the country. The executive director, eric brooks, the curator, outstanding to our crew and their colleagues, volunteers and staff here at ashland. And a personal thank you to cspans former Board Chairman and his spouse, who traveled to kentucky to be with us. History buffs that they are as we kick off the first of our contender series. Thanks for being with us as we learned more about the life of henry clay. Week nighs this month on American History tv, were featuring the contenders looking at 14 president ial candidates who lost the election but had a lasting effect on u. S. Politics. Tonight, we feature former speaker of the house jaime g. Blaine of maine, who also served as secretary of state for three american president s, and was the republican nominee for president in 1884. Watch tonight, beginning at 8 00 eastern. Enjoy American History tv. This week and every weekend on cspan3. Every saturday at 8 00 p. M. Eastern on American History tv on cspan3, go inside a Different College classroom and hear about topics ranging from the american revolution, civil rights and u. S. President s to 9 11. Thanks for your patience and for logging into class. With most College Campuses closed due to the impact of the coronavirus, watch professors transfer teaching to a virtual setting to engage with their students. Gone chrbachev did most of t work to change the soviet union, but reagan supported him. Freedom of the press, i should just mention, madison called it the freedom to use the press. It is not a freedom for what we refer to as institutionally the press. Thats American History tv on cspa cspan3. Every saturday at 8 00 p. M. Eastern. Lectures in history is also available as a podcast. Find it where you listen to podcasts. Youre watching me ining americy tv. Explore our nations past. Cspan3, created by americas Cable Television companies as a Public Service and brought to you today by your television provider. Discusses 19th censure political figures henry clay, john calhoun, and Daniel Webster. He explains why they were critical to american politics between the war of 1812 and the compromise of 1850. He is a history professor at the university of texas in usa b. The gerald r. Ford foundation, and the howenstein center at grand valley state university. Its about 90 minutes. Now, tonight, as i said, partnering with the hollenstein center, as as you know, they have a distingished record for bringing in diverse and informative speakers. Tonights program is no exception, and