Transcripts For CSPAN3 AHTV - Food And The Culture Of The Supreme Court 20240712

Christmas million optional museum, here in washington d. C. Its just over an hour. So its absolutely a thrill to see so many people here for this kind of a program, my name is johnny gray, and i have the wonderful privilege of being the director of your National Museum of American History. Particularly on nights like tonight, and which we really can look at American History in unique and unusual ways. We are really honored to be joined by tonight panel Supreme Court justice, Ruth Bader Ginsburg applause Supreme Court Justice Sonia sotomayor, applause catherine fit, applause and Supreme Court Society Publications director claire kushner, applause it is now my privilege to introduce the 13th secretary of the smithsonian institution, doctor david horton. Hes on Board Certified cardiologist a jazz musician, and doctor scorching with most recently the president of cornell university, and previously served as president of the university of iowa. Doctor gordon has interest in learning as wide as the smithsonian and most importantly tonight, hes a pescatarian. Thanks don for the introduction, and thank you on behalf of the American People for the great job to do so innovative and creative at this amazing museum. applause especially in such an interesting election year, we all appreciate everything you and your colleagues are doing this year so many aspects of the story of america, and to inspire us all with that story. Esteemed colleague and friends, welcome to this unique opportunity, a word i dont use lightly, to find out more about the highest court in the land. And how its members have worked and died together. The Supreme Court, and the smithsonian have long had close ties. Since the 19th century, the chief justice has served as the chancellor of the smithsonian board of regions. I am indebted to chief john roberts for his work and his capacity and for the guidance that he has provided me in my transition, my first year at the smithsonian and the education about the smithsonian and for his ongoing leadership. Justice sotomayor and Justice Ginsburg, i thank you and your colleagues on the court for your crucial work that underpins our democracy. Thank you. applause i know a thing for everyone by saying you are pioneer, role models, and exemplar of the nuance and principal thinking that undergirds the american rule of law. I am glad to say, friends of the smithsonian. Justice ginsburg and sotomayor have each share the fascinating stories with us as part of our smithsonian associate program. They are both represented in the National Portrait gallery on Nelson Shanks painting for justices. Which also features Justice Kagan, and former Justice Oconnor i invite all of you if you havent, to see it. Its on display at the portrait gallery through october. The National Postal museum, has dams that feature legal giants like Justice William brennan, grand ice, and this very museum has a nice collection, the rogue saturday oconnor roe wore when she was sworn in as the first woman justice on the Supreme Court. The seismic shifts and our nations history, have typically been characterized in part by struggle. The politics have been contested as this years contentious unfolds its good to remember that politics can and at the edge of a plate, this is because food brings us all together. It is communal, it is ritual food has always bound civilization as is evident in a centuries old phrase and tradition of breaking bread. One of my favorite variations of this term is, its hard to remain enemies when you broken brought together. Nothing exemplifies that sentiment more than the close relationship shared by justice, ginsburg and the late justice scalia. The picture of the two of them on top of an elephant in the trip to india for me was worth many thousands of words. These brilliant colleagues put any differences aside with or traveling the world are simply breaking bread together right here. Convenient people to explore our shared humanity in her measured of. Shared wisdom is what the smithsonian is all about from discussions of current topics to educations of current programs to events like this one and examine our common bonds, the smithsonian is that hard where people can come together. Thank you for gatherings we could hear some fascinating stories and take some food for thought. John . applause thank you very much. Thank you to our partners at the Supreme Court society for the support of this program. We also welcome the staff of the Supreme Court and the offices of justices ginsburg and sotomayor and many other distinguished gets. Guests. We are honored to be joined by two members of the nations highest court and they have come together to talk about food. In fact this is one of those rare and special times where the justices will speak publicly on topics outside the law. We are the home of julia childs kitchen and so many other National Treasures related to food and its consumptions and productions. We do so for a reason. We help our nation to help understand the passed in order to make sense of the president and shape and more humane future. Food history, food stories and our own love of food and wine first, please limit your photography to the first two minutes of the discussion after i leave the stage and please remember to turn off your cellphones. And its not our honor to introduce tonights paddle on the fascinating, delicious topic of the importance of food at the Supreme Court. Please join me in welcoming our distinguished panel, justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, previously as part of an extensive and legal career, she was appointed to the u. S. Court of appeals for the district of columbias circuit. Justice ginsburg attended Harvard Law School and receive her and will be from Columbia Law School and served on the law review at both schools. Justice Sonia Sotomayor joined the Supreme Court in 2009, previously as part of an extensive and distinguished legal career, she served in u. S. District court, Southern District of new york, she earned a jd from Yale Law School where she served as editor of the law journal. Catherine is the curator of the u. S. Supreme court. Thank you all for joining us that our table and we look forward to the discussion. Thank you. applause thank you for that introduction. On behalf of the Supreme Court Historical Society, i would like to thank the smithsonian for partnering with us at this event and for hosting us in this beautiful room and especially to the staff for organizing it. On a cold february nine instant 1790, the justices met and held their first session of the Supreme Court in new york city. After they adjourned, they went to a tavern in Lower Manhattan and ate dinner. They dined with new yorks district judges and had a really good time. Name a 13 toasts, including one to the president , went to the constitution, and one to the new national judiciary. So since its very inception, the Supreme Court justices have found ways to come together and share meals as they are appointed for life, they often said on the bench together for years, if not decades. They look for ways to enhance cordiality and cooperation by, as you said, breaking bread together. Tonight we are going to examine the evolution of some of the courts customs and evolving food, from the early 19th century and then hear about what some of these distinguished justices have to say about current practices. Let us start with the Marshall Court era. When jean marshall, the great chief justice from virginia presided over the court from 1801 to 1835. He sat on the court. There were six and then seven justices, and they were appointed from all up and down the eastern seaboard, from boston all the way down to georgia and eventually out west of kentucky. They came to washington to the Supreme Court sessions alone. They left their wives and children in their hometowns. They did not move their families to washington, because the court term was very short. During the jon Marshall Court era, it was usually about two months long. Accordantly, chief Justice John Marshall arranged for them all to live together in a boarding house, and they took almost all their meals together. So catherine, why did John Marshall want the justices to live, dine, work, and socialize together . I would say, i think the primary reason was that he wanted to build a bond between the justices. It also goes to say that the courts started out with a very nomadic existence. They were in new york and that was the seat of the nations government. Then they moved to philadelphia and then they came to washington. I think also at the time we have to remember that in washington, it was not the city that we remember today, so there were very few places for the justices and members of congress to come on this transient schedule to washington. So they lived in the boarding houses to kind of gain that fraternal bond and to also come together. I think John Marshall also wanted the justices to come together and speak in one voice to try to give the court some stature. When they were eating in the boarding houses, or they in a private room or what they with other guests . I think at times they probably shared some meals with other guests. But when they met when they deliberated their cases they met in private for those discussions. So they actually ate dinner and deliberated cases at the same time . According to stories, that is the case. So it was there no Conference Room available to them at the court . Was what was the situation like in the capital . I probably should have practiced my remarks with that. When the court moved to washington, there was the president s house, the capital, and even though we had a third branch of government, there was no place for the Supreme Court to me. So graciously, room was made available in the basement of the capital, but that was just a little Small Committee room. I think it was 30 by 35 feet. And eventually in 1810, the Supreme Court had their First Chamber on the ground floor of the capitol building. That is the era that John Marshall comes to washington and leaves the court. Joan marshall had a great fondness for a fortified wine imported from the portuguese island of moderna. He was not alone. Modera was not alone. It was popular with many of the Founding Fathers including thomas jefferson. Apparently, the shaking and funnellike conditions in the ships hold gave it a very complex, caramel flavor that they liked. Catherine, tell us a little bit about John Marshall and madeira. Catherine i think he gained his taste for madera in a richmond. I hope i pronounce it correctly, he was part of a club in richmond that was essentially a Barbecue Club for gentlemen and John Marshall is one of the founding members and they had their own punch and madeira was one of the primary ingredients. Cognac, rhum, sugar, and madeira was one of the primary ingredients. They played a long game similar to horseshoes and through iron rings and one of the reasons they got together was to have this bond, and John Marshall had a role that politics and religion were not to be discussed and if they were caught discussing it they were fined a case of champagne which was consumed at the next meeting. [laughter] clare and apparently you have bottles labeled that he brought . Catherine i think there were merchants who played on John Marshalls on this form madeira. And there was a Supreme Court labeled madeira which gave the seal of approval of John Marshall that it must be good. Marshall had a great ally on the court. A man who was appointed from massachusetts. Apparently, the story had a week stomach and he was a says teetotaller when he arrived in washington. I did not last long. Look what he wrote to his wife that the justices tried really hard not to drink too much wine. They had a rule that only on rainy days and for medicinal purposes with a imbibe. But apparently this was not a bright line rule. This is true. A there are various versions. They drank only when it rained. The chief justice said, he looked at the window and the sun was shining brightly, and he said somewhere in the world, its raining. laughter Justice Ginsburg, you have an anecdote about stories about sarah. She didnt like being away from the capital city for weeks at a time, so she decided she would come along with him. That made chief Justice Marshall rather uneasy. He said it would be all right if she dined with them. She would have a civilizing influence, but she must not be around when they were discussing cases. She did not want to distract the justice from the work he was to do. As it turned out, sarahs stomach was no better than josephs, and the boarding house fair did not agree with her. So she left before the term ended, but it was the beginning of the boarding house the beginning of the end of the boarding. House one justice or another decided, why should i have this boarding house when i can be living with my family . And i think johnson left, and then another, and another, and what happened when the boarding house style of living ended, the sense began to appear within the court. John marshall did a remarkable thing. The tradition was, that he inherited from england was that each justice wrote his or her opinion. Say there was a panel of five judges, there would be five opinions and then the lawyers would have to figure out what the decision meant. Marshals idea was that there should be only one opinion. He would speak for the court. There should be no dissents. And he would write the opinion. laughter its remarkable that the early Marshall Court, almost all of the decisions are written by the chief justice. But when the boarding house system broke down, so did the unanimity. There is evidence that the marshal Court Justices liked to share Food Products with each other. They were very proud of the fruits of their hometowns. For example, jon marshall sent virginia ham up to josephs story in boston and it was reciprocated by being sent shellfish caught. Along with salted cod. Its not easy. You have to soak it. He was not sure that virginians would know what to do with it. My question is for both justices, starting with Justice Ginsburg. Are there modern examples of justices today on the Court Bringing food from their hometowns or back from their travels . Hunting trips. We had an intrepid hunter on the court who would bring everything back from fish to fowl, to bambi. To wild boar. He was very generous in sharing. Justice breyer, not so long ago, decided he needed to introduce his grandchildren to the game caught by our colleague, presented the pheasant, presented it and cooked it. But he said it should be careful because there might be pellets in the game. They refused to eat it, so he ate it alone. Another favorite its called beef jerky. It was made by sarah day oconnors brother. At the family ranch. A couple of times she would bring large supplies of the jerky and distribute it. Quite spicy . Very spicy. I would have loved it. I understand that Justice Breyer and Justice Kennedy have brought wine for the court to share. Only on very special occasions. It was the traditional dinner before the state of the union message. One year, Justice Kennedy came with a couple of bottles of wine from california. He also brought duck from california. That was the first time i felt i fell asleep during the state of union. laughter Justice Sotomayor, i understand when you first joined the court you brought a treat with you from new york for the other justices. I should not be telling tales, but the colleague on the panel with me, i was told enjoyed sweets. So i brought a box of new york patriots pastries with me for our first conference together. Only learned later that the treat she is most fond of was muffins. Now we have our own pastry chef in the court. Many justices have had food related traditions with their clerks. Harry blackmon, famously liked to have breakfast with his clerks every morning in the Supreme Court cafeteria, and chief Justice Warren burger, he was a great lever of good food and wine, and a good chef. He would make bean soup for his clerks on saturdays. Ive been trying to get the recipe for that being soup, but it seems to be a little of this and a little of whatever was around, but quite delicious. I want to ask both justices, do you have particular food traditions with fewer clerks . Lots of them. I love food. So i do. Routinely on weekends when the bagel shop near the court was open, it is not closed and i am heartbroken, i would bring in bagels on the weekend. I would buy all sorts of cream cheese and we would spend a lunch hour eating fresh bagels. I eat with my law clerks at home fairly regularly. They come over to my place every couple of months, and there are charges to find a new delivery place that can deliver some food that is new for us. It is also in my clerks manual that one of their responsibilities during the year is to identify a restaurant that i have not eaten not. laughter it has expanded my knowledge of d. C. Restaurants. So yes, i guess my final food related tradition with my clerks is when i travel, particularly a broadband abroad, anywhere in the United States that might be different than a local spot. I bring back chocolates from that place or their traditional sweets. If you come to my office, almost always, there is candy. Its a very unusual thing for a diabetic, isnt it . I once had a child ask me, how could a diabetic have candy in her office . My response was, people like it and they come to talk to me more when they know there is candy in my office. That is true. I think sometimes i make a detour just so i can come by. Especially at halloween. I am a big halloween buff. Justice ginsburg, as you mentioned, going back to the 19th century. But the 1940s, the justices were bringing their families with them and living in washington. They became part of the washington establishment, part of washington society. You are instrumental on helping the Supreme Court Historical Society get published. The memoir of who was the wife of John Marshall holland, had served on the Supreme Court from 1877 to 1911. So could you explain a little bit about the elaborate social functions that Supreme Court wives had to undertake in that time period . Let me say a word about this memory. I was trying to get information for the Supreme Court Historical Society on the lives of Supreme Court wives. It was precious little, because most correspondents was the library of Congress Filed among the justice papers, his manuscript for memories of the long life. Its the story about miss holland. A girl who grew up in indianapolis. From an abolitionist family. She married John Marshall from kentucky. It is a remarkable book. A Supreme Court Historical Society was the first one it is now out in the random house modern library. But one of the things that it describes is at home, mondays. The justices wives were expected to have a tee for anyone who want to come. It could be 200 or 300 people on an annual monday. They would serve scones and cakes, and sandwiches, and sometimes they would Hire Musicians so the young people could dance. All of this was not paid for by the federal government. It was private responsibility of the justices. And sometimes in the course of the afternoon, the justice would come out for a 15 or 20 minute appearance. This went on for a long time. Until the Great Depression and they finally put an end to all of this social sort of traditions. Very expensive for the families to bear the cost. But they continued to have into my appointment at the court, a ladys dining room, where the spouses met. I got to be a little bit embarrassing when two of the spouses were so the story and how we changed that the Supreme Court is a very tradition bound place. Sandra oconnor and i thought, how should we suggest to the chief that the ladiesdining room should be renamed . And she came up with a good idea . Lets tell him we want to call it the Natalie Cornell rehnquist dining room. His wife had died 10 years before. He was devoted to her. So we now have the Natalie Cornwell rehnquist dining room. Clare lets shift gears and talk about the lunch break. Catherine, i understand that in the 19th century, oral arguments went on for a very long time and Court Sessions lasted from 11 to five and then the went from 12 to 4 30. What did the justices do about lunch . Believe it or not, while oral arguments were going on, one or two justices at a time which slip behind the bench and their messengers which set up tables, and the justices would eat lunch behind the bench while oral arguments were actually going on. So if you were sitting in the courtroom listening to oral arguments, you could not see the justices eating, because they were behind the bench or a screen. But could you hear them . You could. But much like we were kind of raised in the courtroom, the benches was raised as well. There was a partition and an opening behind the three center chairs. But there was a partition so the justices would be seated at these tables, but you could certainly hear the clatter of knives, forks and dishes. The messengers sometimes would bring meals from the Senate Restaurant, and if you are wondering why i have this little prop here, there is also a story that is repeated that one of the justices decided they wanted to have a split of champagne with their lunch, and as the messenger was trying to open the bottle, supposedly the cork flew out over the bench. Or at some of the oral advocates concerned that there was not a quorum on the bench when a couple of them had slipped away . There was. There was one instance where two members did not attend because they were ill. Then again, we would have one or two justices slipping behind the bench to have lunch. So as the story goes, and attorney asked the justice, the chief justice, kind of paused and asked, are you sure there is a quorum . At the time theyre needed to be a quorum of six justices. The chief justice at the time assured the attorney that even though you cannot see them, you can probably hear them eating behind the bench. And asked the attorney to proceed. So when did the lunch break happen first . I think a few weeks after that incident around the 1898, the court and initiated a lunch break. A half hour only between two and 2 30. I have been researching a Supreme Court cookbook, and i found so many anecdotes about justices bringing their lunch boxes with them to the court. Brown bagging it. Why would they do that if they had a chef at the cafeteria . We had certain justices that like certain things for lunch. I think that is one of the reasons that the justices brought their own lunch. Also because of the timing. Within that half hour, it was not like the justices could go have lunch at a restaurant. And there were times when the Senate Restaurant was also closed, because the senate was not in session. I learned the senate had lunch and at counters that were not too far, since the court kind of inherited space from the senate overtime. I think they were kind of close to the Senate Restaurant sometimes food would be brought to them. Its all in 1935, the Supreme Court got its own building and what were the facilities like . Chief justice taft was in charge of the Supreme Court Building Commission and so one of the many requirements for when they were finally able to get home of their own was that there would not only be a cafeteria for the public and for the attorneys because again and that short window, the attorneys were also trying to go out and find something for lunch. There would be a cafeteria and the justices would also have their own separate dining rooms. It had to accommodate at least 18 people and it had to be in close proximity to the justices Conference Room. So the half an hour lunch break lasted until 1970 when she just asperger expanded it to an hour. Im going to ask both of the justices. Actually, i will start with Justice Ginsburg. You now have a full hour. You have a beautiful justice dining room. What goes on during the lunch break, and do all the justices generally tried to attend on days when the court is in session . I would defer to my colleague for that, one because she is a regular at the luncheon. I will show up whenever the court is conferring so we can confer in the morning at 9 30. And then by the lunch break i will go with my colleagues for lunch. And occasionally other times if when Justice Oconnor came to town, or nowadays when John Paul Stevens is with us. And for birthdays, and thats a nice tradition. Whenever a justice has the birthday the chief brings and someone, and we toast the birthday boy or girl and saying happy birthday. Were missing our course leader because to be told most of them cant carry a tune. laughs . Im one of them who cant. I go regularly and its a wonderful experience we have lunch plans after every court argument, or morning. And after every Conference Day and ruth comes to the lunch regularly on the Conference Days. Their generally is at least five people attending, five of the nine justices. Occasionally more, all of us have family active schedules, so its hard to make it even for myself every munch. But justices will come somewhat regularly on their own pattern of regularity. Almost everybody will come when some of our retired justices return for a visit, whether its justice defense or Justice Oconnor. We do have the birthday celebration. You asked what do we talk about, we have a role similar to chief justice john marshals rule, which is, we dont talk about different than his, because they used to talk about cases. We dont talk about cases. Thats our absolute roar. There is no topic thats off limits, but we try to avoid controversy. So were very guarded about raising topics that we think might create hostility in the room. That doesnt mean we dont talk about politics, but its not in the great depth that we might do in the privacy of our home. The most common conversation is about a fascinating book that one of the justices is reading. All of the justices are voracious readers and someone is already always reading something that the rest of us will like. We sometimes have conversation about interesting exhibits and the wonderful museums of d. C. , i dont have to look them up. I just wait for a colleague to tell me that theyve gone, and i figure out which ones i want to go to. We will tell funny stories on each other, someone will tell about an experience on a vacation, or an experience with a grandchild. Or a child. There is just the normal type of conversation that people have who want to get to know each other as individuals, rather than as justices. You forgot one major topic. To which i dont contribute, but you do certainly. And thats sports. Im sorry ruth youre right. But actually, i only contribute really on baseball. The real sports person is elena kagans, our colleague. It used to be, we should start this up again, every once in a while we would invite a guest to live in the lunch table conversation. Thinking back on past years weve had Supreme Court justices, one from south africa, one from india. Weve had secretaries of state, sandra lisa rice was a lunch guest. The head of the zoo which is a smithsonian institute. And Michael Cohen who had the shakespeare theater, weve had the president s of the unit european quote of justice. And the europe peons court of human rights. Weve had only two so far who have been repeat lunch guests. And those were alan rain fan and jim wolf person. Who not so long ago headed the royal bank. The reason is that those to have an uncanny ability to eat lunch and speak at the same time. laughs . But ruth that stops. We should started up again. I dont know i wasnt a part of that tradition, but i do know that the justices have fascinating guys who come join them. Every once in a while we will get a Smaller Group of justices together in someones chambers, to meet that guest. I know ruth i invited you when i had martina royal. When she was receiving the Kennedy Center honors. And steve has invited me from south africa had come. I think there are lunches, smaller lunches, of that type that you go on. Speaking of lunch, ive been researching the launch tabitha various justices, and i find that they sort of fall into two paradigms. The very healthy eaters, like Louis Brandeis who brought two pieces of whole wheat bread with fresh finish in between. On the other extreme, you have justice flintstone who was what they called, and his day, a gorman. He loved french cheese, he loved wine, and his way giant platters a french cheeses for his months. So Justice Ginsburg. Im going to ask you first. Where do you fall in that spectrum . laughs . How do you sustain yourself during the day . For 56 years i was married to chef supreme, my husband was a great cook. We didnt mention we get that later ok. He was a big contributor to food at the court. He would make cakes for everybodys birthday, all the justices birthday. Or my law clerks birthdays. In the days when we didnt have outside food for the state of the union. He cooperated with sometimes marry kennedy and making the prestate of the union dinner for the court. For those of you who dont know. Justice ginsburg was lucky enough to be married to Martin Ginsburg who was a brilliant professor tax law. And also remarkably talented chef. Id like to maybe just get back to the question about what you eat for lunch. Just a santa sonia. I know that youve been very open about managing diabetes and your childhood, and how does that play into how you sustain yourself during the day . Im assuming that because of martins culinary skills, that ruth tends to eat relatively lightly at lunch. We i dont think that youre very greatly, am i wrong ruth . You dont bury your lunches that much. No. Theyre pretty simple. But my dinners, my husband died in 2010, and my daughter has taken on the responsibility of making sure that her mother is properly nourished. Its only right because she face to me out of the kitchen at an early age, when she learned the difference between mom is cooking and that is cooking. laughs . So now she comes once a month, she fills the freezer with food when it overflows i bring it into the court and put it in the court freezer. And we do something nice together in the evening. I intern, bury my lunch. I shop for myself every week, the day varies on the availability of time. I bring my fruit and, i have it put together so that i can experience Something Different every day. Every once in a while, i will order in, my favorite order in our two. A local japanese sushi place, and another a local indian place. But most of the time, i do it very healthy, i have a lot of solids. And i love salads because you can vary them with the ingredients. So no two solids that i have are ever identical. I have occasional salad sandwiches, i also like making sandwiches in interesting ways with healthy ingredients. I will put turk or turkey, tuna fish, or boiled eggs but then i will put roasted peppers on it. Pickle sometimes, whatever suits my fancy to increase the taste of the sandwich. Eat a lot of fruit salad because i can vary those with types of fruits that i eat. For me, eating is secret. You should not waste the mail. It can be simple and healthy, but it has to be tasty. Habits with respect the food ban a wide range. In contrast to sonia very well prepared diet. There was my dear colleague, david souter, who ate one thing only for lunch. Plain yogurt. No fruit, just plain yogurt. I understand occasionally he had an awful. laughs . Leader in the day. And he ate the core. By the way justices do have different eating habits. A number of my colleagues order from our cafeteria. I dare say that chief orders from the cafeteria and then he has a salad generally brought up. Justices kagan, breyer, and thomas, will bury their lunches. Justice kennedy and families know bring food from home. And sometimes icy sams fair and i think maybe i should eat dinner with him are often. As with Justice Kennedy, because both of their spouses are wonderful cooks. Some justices like just a stephens eight eight cheese sandwich on a white bread with the crest cut off. Virtually every day that i sat with him for a year. I understand, and ruth can tell me this because i did not have the privilege of knowing his wife well. She was a wonderful cook. She was a dietician, so she was a very healthy food provider. But there was a time when he was on a diet, and he had great boot cut and half ate both halves and there today that is it. That was before my time. Id like to get back to Martin Ginsburg for a little bit. Justice ginsburg, you are talking about the wives tees and the late 19th century. And the role that Supreme Court wives are expected to play. But your has been played an extremely Important Role internally at the court, by being such a good joyful participant in these luncheons. Spouse luncheons are held four times a year, and they are are they potluck . Two or three of the spouses take the initiative to organize them. So my question to you just again bird, do you remember your husband going off to his first spouse luncheon, and what his impression was a bit . Or what he made for that luncheon . He made it an auto. Which was very popular. Its in this book. This book chefs supreme was conceived by martha and alito. And she thought the perfect tribute to marty would be a cookbook. So this has some 30 art of his well over 150 recipes that he had on a disk. The choices were initially made by mom but then my daughter looked at the table of contents and she said. Mother those are not the recipe that he would have picked. So i said, all right jane, you pick the recipes. And in the table of contents there is one recipe it is, james cesar salad. So she contributed one of her own. laughter ruth, shes the skaters her father, i understand. The food was fantastic. The tributes to Martin Ginsburg in the cookbook by the spouses is wonderful. Id like to briefly read a bit from douglas stone who was caused the widow of william over douglas. Catherine lah he arrived drift dressed elegantly and a sports jacket with a handkerchief in his sports jacket. His smile gave the impression of perpetual amusement. Its as though he had just heard some witty remark. He was softspoken. Aware that one aspect of the spouses job is to find in an institution defined by differences. He seemed eager to do his part. We departed our lunches with marty, feeling fulfilled and always closer to one another. Khamenei think John Marshall would have really, really enjoyed Martin Ginsburg. My question to you, Justice Ginsburg, is did he just love to share good food or do you think he was aware of the sort of Important Service he was doing for the court in binding it together . Oh, id say both. His fondness for the kitchen, i think began shortly after i made my first meal. He said he owed his skill to two women. First was his mother, and second was his wife. I dont think it was being fair to his mother. But he was entirely accurate when it came to me. Marty began cooking when he was in service in oklahoma, and i came back to give birth to james. My cousin sent him a cookbook in english translation. He said this will give you something to do while your wife is a way. And so marty started on page one, the basic stuff. He had been a chemistry major at cornell until golf practice interfered with the chemistry labs, so he treated this cookbook like a chemistry book. After the two years, he was already quite a good cook. He was a fabulous baker. Yes. He made wonderful bread. Yes, he said there wasnt a decent loaf of bread in the entire city of washington, d. C. So he made his own bread. Justice sotomayor, lets talk a little bit about your food traditions. Growing up, your mother in your autobiography, my beloved world, you write that she cooked rice and beans. Did you learn to cook growing up . I am not a bad cook, but i am a horrible cook of puerto rican food. I know why, because i have tasted the best for my mother, my grandmother, my uncles, my father. I cannot duplicate anything they make. So i have really lost heart and do not try. I am now trying to figure out how to make my mothers dish, so every time i visit her in florida, she still makes them for me. I do to fully watch. And they are never the same. Four years i thought it had to do with the pan she was using or pants. They had to have been seasoned in a particular way. So ive taken three of her pants overtime. Every once in a while when we are in the kitchen cooking with a new pants she will look at me and say, i wonder what happened to the last pan . It disappeared shortly after the last visit. But it is not that. She is a traditional cook, which to me is someone who does not cook with recipes. And every meal she cooks tastes the same, but is better, because something has changed and improved. And so i dont think i will ever duplicate her. But i do cook a lot of other things. We are almost out of time. I just wanted to get one last topic in and that is some of the other traditions of the court involving food. Since the 19th century, there have been welcome and farewell dinners for justices when they arrive at the court. Justice ginsburg, do you remember your welcome dinner in 1993 . It was made for me by Justice Oconnor. And thanks to kathy fits i have the menu someplace here. With that dinner was. Hopefully the one where i did not forget to put part of the ingredients in the email i sent. It was red leaf lettuce and chopped and dives with heart of palm and rolled artichoke burst and filet of salmon and then you had put poached i said i dont remember this this is like boiled with red wine. It was a pair poached bought in synthetic dell. She had entertainment from a group the metro gnomes. We have not been successful in locating that group but when justice came on board i knew just what to do. Dr. John breyer is the daughter of a wealthy retired englishman, so asked Catherine Ron cough the gilbert and sullivan songs and makeup lyrics that fit Justice Breyer and his wife. I think the best party that we had was the one when Justice Oconnor retired. She insisted that she did not want to have any party. So Justice Souter came up with an idea he thought she could not resist. It was that she could pick any movie that she would like to see and we will watch it in the pictured theater and then we would have an appropriate dinner to go with the movie. The movie was red river with john wayne and montgomery cliff. It had every politically incorrect thing in it. It is sexist and racist. And we had popcorn. Each of us. And then we went to the caucus room and the library and we had of southwestern dinner. Bought our tradition on the court is that the least junior justice would welcome the next incoming justice by arranging a welcoming dinner. And so mine was arranged by sam alito. There was a wonderful dinner. He had a Classical Guitar player. He was playing spanish music, which i thought was quite beautiful and entertaining. The next year, when elena kagan came aboard i decided to call up one of her friends from harvard and ask them what they thought was her favorite food. The friend reported that her favorite food was chinese. Well, i had a problem, which is that Justice Stevens did not eat chinese food. So i had to devise a menu that would satisfy him and also satisfied her. So i worked very diligently with the caterer to come up with an asian flavored meal that everyone would like. I think that the turnout. But during the dinner at some point, i explained to Justice Kagan went i had done and she said who told you i liked chinese food . I told her the name of the person and she turned to me and said, im grateful for your thoughtfulness, but, and im mentioned the persons name, but that person likes chinese food. laughter at any rate, i still think she enjoyed the dinner. There is a momentum that is given, at least in the tradition that i have been a part of, at the end of the dinner, keeps aching that is presenting bought Justice Alito gave me a bottle of wine with the picture of the justice Supreme Court and my name on. It Justice Kagan, i presented her with a chocolate gavel. I dont know how many of you remember, but during her confirmation hearing, there was a picture of her in high school in a robe with an oversized gavel in her hand. In my welcome we i indicated i thought the chocolate gavel was now well deserved. At any rate, the dinners are fun. A lot of the retired justices, not all of them, sometimes return. And occasionally the spouses of deceased justices also come. We should mention the dinners after our music ill. The court started having music councils sometime in the 19 eighties. It was begun by just as blackmon and then when he retired, Justice Oconnor took in on for about four or five years. And ive been doing it in the years since. The artist performs at three in the afternoon and then special friends of the artist and special friends of the music of the court have dinner together in the justices dining room. Weve had some pretty outstanding guests in the dining room going back three years. Look video ma i just have one more question. I would like to ask each of you, each of the justices if you had the opportunity to have a long, leisurely lunch with two Supreme Court justices no longer living, who would you choose to break bread with . When you asked about this i think both of us said the great chief Justice John Marshall who made the court the institution that it has become. Also, because i was so taken with the biography of martial by Jean Edward Smith. In college i had suffered through beverages of martial multivolumes and not very interesting, but the man comes alive in the Jean Edward Smith biography, which i recommend to all of you. Another possibility would be the first Justice John Marshall holland. Think of what his parents had in mind when they named their child after the great chief justice. He was, as i said before, a man who grew up in kentucky bought on a plantation with slaves and then he became what is, i suppose, best known for his dissent in plessy versus ferguson, but even before that in 1885 in the socalled civil rights cases, he dissented when the court struck down a major piece of reconstruction legislation for public accommodations. The law that gave people without regard to race, access to places of public accommodations. The court saying congress didnt have the authority to do that. And he wrote a fine descent, very much like the leader dissent in plessy versus ferguson. Id also like to have lunch with curtis, the dissenter in the dred scott case. One of the two dissenters. I mentioned John Marshall and i think Justice Ginsburg has explained, and i think everyone knows historically importance. What are the important ingredient of eating for me. And the first is good conversation, and electoral conversation. And john marshal bill that bill. Second good food, and i would have wanted to have harlan there with his platter of french jesus. laughs . Because i love the truth and cheese to boot. And then storytelling, and marshall i understand was a justice who was on the court over 20 years . And i am told by some of my colleagues, that he never told a story twice. I would have loved to have been in conversation with him. And to hear some of his stories. So that would be the perfect dinner table for me. The one justice as much as i admire him, but i would not want him as my dinner partner, and that was just the louis one of his friends reported that if he were invited to dinner at the brandeis home, you would eat before and after. inaudible laughs . I second that decision. Weve covered a lot here tonight, before a close i just want to ask my three panelists. Is there anything else you would like to bring up that we havent talked about . What did we forget . Ruth . I dont know. I think we said give clara a round of applause for putting this together. applause before we close i would like it but the pitch to the audience. If any of you know any recipes or anecdotes about Supreme Court justices and food, please get in touch with me because i am writing a cookbook. I would also send out a plea to all of you to go to Supreme Court history. Org, where we have supporting materials about the event tonight, more information about a lot of the topics covered. We also have copies of supreme, the Martin Ginsburg cookbook, im are and Justice Sotomayor splendid auto mop autobiography. We have signed copies of that on our website, we have some tonight in the hole. Please join me in thanking our distinguished panelist for such a fascinating conversation. applause thank you all for coming please remain seated while the panelists leave the stage. applause weeknights this month, were featuring American History tv programs as a preview of whats available every weekend on cspan 3. On friday night, a look at the Supreme Court Historical Society. Founded in 1974, to collect and preserve the history of the nations highest court. We begin an evening of the program with yale law professor driver. On the 1956 southern manifesto, a document written by congressional members who oppose the Supreme Court 1954 brown versus board of education decision. Which will that segregated schools were unconstitutional. Watch friday beginning at 8 pm eastern. Enjoy American History tv, this week, and every weekend on cspan 3. Youre watching American History tv, every weekend on cspan three explore our nations past, cspan 3, created by americas Cable Television company. And brought to you today by your television provider. The competition is on, be a part of this year cspan dude and cant video competition. Middle and High School Students be the start of a National Conversation by making a five to six minute documentary, exploring the issue you want the president to address in 2021. The bold with your documentary, shows supporting and opposing points of view, and includes seized by video. Be aware, theres 100,000 dollars and total cash prizes. Including a grand prize of 5000 dollars. The deadline to summit videos is january 20th, 2021. The and for your five competition rule, tips, and more information on how to get started out our website. Student cam. Org. President maduro with an nominated bo