Shirley chisholm, how do you explain this incredible president ial year . We have gotten to a point in American History where the American People feel a kind of alienation and cynicism from conditional politics. The people feel that the democrats nor republicans that it is all part of the same old traditional package, that there needs to be change in america and that if the change does not emanate from the programs and plans of either party, americans have gotten to the point where they are willing to make that change outside of the regular twoparty structure. But how do you think we got to that point . I ask you because you have been involved in politics for a long time. What got us to that point . How did the parties get disconnected from the people . I think there is a combination of factors. First of all, the parties have not been able to be dispensers on the local and state levels. Particularly on those levels. Many of the district local offices are no longer in the communities across this nation. It seems to me that people became disinterested as a result of cumulative experiences in this country that turned them off. Gate, e, water watergate, the national scandals that came about. The situation pertaining to the iran contra. People are fed up. We have got to the point where they are not really holding on to the following persons in one of the two parties. They are saying, parenthetically, enough is enough. They are at this point in 1992, to really do something to bring about a change. They are fed up. I traveled in the farm communities, rural communities, inner cities. You find people saying the same thing over and over. They are fed up. Dont ask me about issues. You want somebody whos going to bring about change. That is the most important thing you hear constantly. Everybody is talking about change. Bruce do you think that is your explanation for the appeal of ross perot . Rep. Chisholm it is part of the appeal. They see ross perot as a man who is a billionaire and has kept close to his chest what he stands for, what his agenda is. All they know from the little bit they have heard is that he has been a man of action. He doesnt talk a whole lot. He gets things done. Hes an activist. The American People are becoming sick and tired of the same political rhetoric every four years from both parties only to find neither one of the two parties lands in the white house, nothing really changes. They are willing this time to really even following a ross perot if they have to because they know their quality of life has deteriorated so badly, he could not be any worse in terms of responding to their needs. That either of the two parties strange phenomenon. Bruce you grew up in the Democratic Party. Do you think it will survive this election cycle . Rep. Chisholm the Democratic Party will survive. Im quite sure it is going to survive. But i also sense a growing disenchantment with the party to the extent that we may have in the very near future the establishment of a third party in this country, not based on race, but based on class. When you go out into the farm communities, it is amazing to hear farmers tell you, they will tell you it is time for a thirdparty. Farmers have been loyal to the Republican Party or the Democratic Party. These are not the people that go off in either direction. You never think of the Farming Community being of a radical nature, if that is the term a desire to use. But now the people are fed up. I sense this all over the country. The possibility of a third party evolving within the next six to eight years, i would not be the least bit surprised. Bruce are americans ideological, do you think . Or do they just want things to get done . Rep. Chisholm i dont think americans are basically ideological. I really believe that they want to get things done. They have seen their taxpaying dollars being utilized for all kinds of aid, foreign aid programs abroad. They have been invading on this piece dividend. Than the war and the cough was over, that we will use the money to rebuild our cities and our towns and our villages. And all of it has been nothing but rhetoric. So now, they are saying, we would like to get a change. Can you imagine people getting to the point where they dont even know what the candidate really stands for . What is his agenda . Very educated people i have met, black and white, have said to me, i dont care what mr. Perot stands for. Hes a man of action. I think that is very dangerous when people in this country get to the point that you are not really interested in what the gentleman or candidates overall agenda is because they are fed up. Bruce here we are, the 20th anniversary of your own race for president in 1972. What thinking did you have when you announced for president and how was it received . Rep. Chisholm in the first place, my announcement for president was made on the basis of two states in the union. The people told me, mrs. Chisholm, weve got to have some change in government. The time has come where we have to move in the direction of hoping that someday, somewhere, somehow, a black man or a woman can be president. A black person or woman can be president. Mrs. Chisholm, you have a knowledge of the issues. Youre bilingual. You articulate well. You are not a phony. You become a catalyst. The states of florida and minnesota, those two states. At that time in 1972, florida had less than a 10 black population and minnesota only had about a 3 black population. Bruce why those two states . Rep. Chisholm i had been doing some public speaking. When i emerged in this country, everybody wanted to know who Shirley Chisholm was. Who is this black woman who will be the first person of her sex and race to enter the u. S. House of representatives . I did a lot of speaking and they found out i was fairly intelligent. Fearless. Had a knowledge of issues. Not afraid. They said, we desire that you begin to help bring about some change. Oh, i was afraid because i remember saying to them, you dont run for the presidency of this country on the basis of a moral feeling. You need money. I didnt ask for money. But amazingly, within three months time, the state of florida and the state of missouri raised 10,000 each. I got frightened when they called and said, we raised money. I wanted to back out. I became afraid because i never believed this would have happened. It happened. Then i had to make my mind up. Once i said, now you cant go back, you throw out an indirect challenge to them. You cant do this to people. I made my mind up that i was going to make the bid and all hell broke loose. Bruce where did you announce and to whom . Rep. Chisholm i announced at the concord Street Baptist Church in brooklyn, new york. I stand before you today as a candidate for the democratic nomination for the presidency of the United States of america. [applause] rep. Chisholm in the midst of my congressional district, which was the 12th congressional district, i announced to the people of the community and a number of friends that were aware of my announcement and came in from cities along the eastern seaboard. The church was jammed. There must have been close to 2000 people. And the excitement that was there. All of the enthusiasm that was there, that a black woman, for the first time in the United States of america, had the audacity and the nerve to say she wanted to guide the ship, she wanted to be president. I can see the picture now. It was so exciting. But also, beneath that excitement of the idea that persons other than a white male could and should be president was part of an entire drama. Why is it in the United States of america, only white males can be president . Here i was, a twofor. Not only a woman, but a black person. Therefore, i was representing, in a sense, a black person and a female person. So my campaign in the beginning with a lot of black and women around me. That is how that got off the ground. Believe you me, it was not easy. After i made that announcement and i began to visit different parts of the country, assemble a staff and everything, hell broke loose. The reason hell broke loose is because how dare you . Have you forgotten you are a woman . Have you forgotten that you are black, and you want to be president . Bruce whos telling you these things . Rep. Chisholm a lot of the black males at the time had very negative feelings about my announcement. And a lot of the white males. It was the males, primarily, that gave me the fit. I remember so distinctly so many incidents in which they felt i was going in the wrong direction. Bruce can you think of one incident and name one name . [laughter] bruce its 20 years, you know. Rep. Chisholm i know it is, but i know in terms of the black males, it was felt. I dont want to call one name because so many of them had the same feeling. They really felt if a black person was going to make a bid for the presidency, it should not be a black woman. It should be a black male. This whole machismo thing gets in the way. Not only that. The black males were very annoyed with me because they were having this bid conference in gary, indiana. This black conference with the mayor of gary, they were coming together to find a black person to run for president. Shirley chisholm had jumped the gun. They felt like, where does she think she is going . She didnt get our approval. The fact of the matter is, i was very cognizant of the fact i would never get their approval because they would feel i needed to be placed in a straitjacket. So i went ahead on the basis of the fact there were citizens in this country who raised the money for me to make the bid. Because the citizens felt i had what it takes, i possessed leadership qualities. I had a clear understanding of the issues. I was a fearless woman and i was intelligent. That was all. The only thing that bothered a lot of folks i was black and i was a woman. Bruce how did the womens groups that existed at the time respond to your candidacy . Rep. Chisholm it was halfandhalf. Some of them responded positively and some did not. An amazing thing happened to me that shocked me for three years. That the women in the southern part of the country responded to my candidacy more sincerely and truthfully than the women in the north. I can tell you stories of how women in the south i remember the state of mississippi, where some of the local women, white women lost their jobs because of the white male power structure. Reminding them that Shirley Chisholm was a black woman. These women would respond, you know shes a black woman, but she has what it takes to bring about change. Women lost their jobs. White women lost their jobs in parts of mississippi because they would not pull back from my candidacy. In florida, when i landed in tallahassee the airport was jammed with black and white women. In the north, while i found that the northern white women were saying Shirley Chisholm and is a part of the feminist movement, she is a leader, but while they were giving me beautiful rhetoric, they were destroying my sites behindthescenes. Many of them were not truthful. Even today, many of the white women in the north of my generation, nothing younger people who dont know me people ask me about you were the first woman who happened to be black to make a serious bid for the presidency in terms of going about the country and participating. That the first woman to run for president , but the first woman who did traditionally what you must do, not talking about the other women who had run for president. They did not do what i did, it was just symbolic. I always say, yes, but i must always remind you that it was primarily the women in the south that put me across. So many women in new york, but the truth is the truth. I was surprised. I was very surprised about what happened to me in new york. You must remember i did not make a bid for the presidency on the basis of new york. I made it on the basis of the floridians and minnesotans who said, go. Bruce how did your Campaign Play out . I know you campaigned in the primaries and you did go to the convention. Take us through that process briefly. Rep. Chisholm while i was campaigning i campaigned in 20, 21 states. There were three or four basic things i met constantly. I met constantly the fact that black men and white men were very low in attendance at the rallies and the meetings where i was making appearances. That was very obvious to me. Secondly, i ran into divisions within the particular cities in which i ran because the black people and the white people, particularly the feminists, were actually having disagreements because i am a woman. The feminists felt, this is our candidate, we brought her in. We sponsored her. Then the black people of the community, of course, im black, so they felt, she is one of us. In many cases, they didnt pay to bring me in, so they were trying to jump on the bandwagon. And the white women were like, we brought her in, we can schedule her. Many times, i had to hide until they settled the disagreement. I will give you a very funny story. I remember i went into tallahassee. I will never forget this. They must have been about 60 cars to meet me. White women, black women, a few black men, a few white men. It was an exciting time. They had all their placards and everything. Then, the plane landed. I got off the plane with my two aides. The black community and the White Community rushed to meet me to put me in a waiting car to take me off to the rally. While they were taking me, while the White Community was taking me to their car, the black community says, she is the sister. I looked over and i saw this tiny white man, i dont think he was five feet tall. He was grinning and laughing. He had on his hat. Chisholm for president. I went over to him. I said, thank you so much. I said, can i get into your car and you take me to the rally . He said, i dont have i said, does it move . He said, yes. He was so excited. He got me in the car and off we went. The moment i got into the car, all of the outbursts stopped and they all jumped into their cars to follow. I would never forget that as long as i lived. Bruce how many delegate votes did you get at the convention . Rep. Chisholm i got 158 delegate votes at the convention. A majority from the south. It was amazing that mississippi if i could remember, i got about six of the 12 votes in mississippi. I got 20something louisianan votes. I got more votes from the south. Many of the persons that indicated to me, shirley, go ahead, make the run. We have to have change in america. You got to remember, dont go to the south. In retrospect, if i did not go to the south, i would have fallen completely flat on my face. Bruce did you get Primetime Television time at the podium at the convention . Rep. Chisholm yes. The ones who jumped up and screamed the loudest, that delegation was sitting in the front, George Wallaces alabamian delegation. It was crazy. George wallace, when i was campaigning, 13 others were running. Mcgovern, lindsay. A whole bunch of us. When i was campaigning even in florida, George Wallace you to tell folks, if you cannot vote for me in the primary, dont vote for those pointyheaded liberals, vote for Shirley Chisholm. People felt i had entered into a pact with George Wallace and because of that, i lost the floridian vote. I also caused john lindsay to get out of the race. He had a private meeting with me when he was returning to new york. He was mayor at the time. He told me, youre moving into my vote. He did everything to get myself to remove myself from the floridian primary. I told him, my time has come. Ive got to do this. I will never forget that. It caused a kind of our friendship was never as great as it used to be after i refused to pull out from that race in florida. I must tell the world that it was the south that really took me across. Many of my friends, many people in new york are angry with me because they want the world to feel that because i am a new yorker, that they were the ones that pushed me out. Nothing is further from the truth. Bruce what was your message to the convention . Rep. Chisholm my message for the convention basically was the time has come when we in america can no longer be complacent, passive recipients of whatever the politics of our nation may declare for us. That the time has come that we must look at other americans who have the attributes of leadership, who have knowledge of the issues to make a bid in an unequivocal manner for the presidency of the United States of america. I have decided to accept this challenge and here i am today. Bruce did you ever think you are on a short list to be George McgovernsVice President . Rep. Chisholm no, no. I never fooled myself. People must have thought, did Shirley Chisholm really think she could be present . I am fairly intelligent. Know iart enough to could not be president but someone has to be a catalyst for change. I always regarded myself as a catalyst for change. Bruce we are also 20 years in the anniversary of watergate. I wonder if during that year, you followed the news reports like everybody else, but as an inside politician sort, did you see or wonder what later came to be known as dirty tricks occurred . Rep. Chisholm yes, because i was the victim out in california. In fact, the people in california called me. Donald, he had circulated some literature. Bruce who . Rep. Chisholm he was one of the tricksters in the nixon campaign. His job was to derail the candidacies of the democrats who were running. Oh, he said some awful things about humphrey. Look what he said about Shirley Chisholm. Shirley chisholm had been released from a Mental Institution a few years ago. And it is known that she rubs feces on the walls of the rooms in her home. I thought that the paper crumbled. Bruce what device did he use to get that information out . Rep. Chisholm leaflet. Bruce how do you know it was from him . Rep. Chisholm because my friends in california sent me all the leaflets that was put out by him. At that time, he didnt say he did it. As a result of the watergate hearings, it came out that he did it. Not only negative and untruthful thing