I would like to welcome our members to lunch as well as our guest, and to those listening live over the National Public radio stations, and for those , before watch it later going further i would like to remind the members of upcoming events. Next tuesday, the guest will be william fulbright. The 40th anniversary of the fulbright scholarship program. James speakers include buchanan on january 23 and John Harrington on fairbury 19th. Ould like to remind february 19. If you have questions for our downer, please write them on the part on your table and send them to the front. I will ask as many questions as time permits. I would like to introduce our guest. Please stand when i call your. Ame please withhold your applause until i am completed. Bernard shaw of cable news , Lita Williams of the new york times, adrian farrell, a member who organized the lunch, a member of the french embassy, randy allen from pyramid video, dorothy of the lewisgton post, finley for the Minneapolis Tribune and ernest white of washington living magazine. [applause] our guest today, James Baldwin, offers a lesson for those of us who are readers and writers. A message of clarity, wisdom, and determination. The message needs to be heard. 23 years ago 33 years ago, his first book was published. Brought ago his essay international claim. Climb intos been a deeper respect from his peers and reaffirmation of the message and essays in more than a dozen books. There have been times when his message has been controversial. He criticized the american establishment for failing to meet with ho chi minh and fidel castro. He argues the myth of White Supremacy is crumbling and teenagers have an absence of a feeling of community. He says while the u. S. Was willing to liberate grenada, it has not done the same for detroit or new york. He says the drug and alcohol problems of the inner cds went unattended inner cities went unattended. Mr. Baldwin says there were two harlems. The black people who lived on the hill, and himself. He was born in new york city, 1924, the first of nine children. The grandson of a slave. He grew up in harlem. After graduation he had many jobs to support his writing. He has been published in harpers and commentary. By 1948, feeling frustrated, he moved to paris. Air. S a breath of fresh he felt as though he came out of a dark tunnel and found himself underneath the open sky. He now divides his time between new york city and southern france. Welcome James Baldwin to the National Press club. [applause] thank you very much. Good afternoon. I am pleased to be here. Surprised when i knew what was going to come here the white house was not in trouble. [laughter] , i am terribly aware of the house on the hill which is in trouble, which means we are. Improvise what is on my mind and then you can ask questions. If the white house is in trouble, we are. How did we get there . I have some suggestions. Suggestions from my life. It what i callof the view from here. Things. Lies many i am speaking as an american citizen, as the grandson of a as a product as member of a certain product and member , an issuein democracy of a certain complex history, someone who represents a very insists onntry which being simpleminded. It has occurred to me more than once in my somewhat taken to be as Great American virtue, along with sincerity. This is if you are simpleminded enough, you can become, i did not want to go that far. [laughter] sincere inyou are you dont have to know what you are talking about. [laughter] virtues. The american two of them, anyway. This ishe result of that immaturity is taken to be a virtue. So that someone like the late john wayne, who spent most of his time on screen admonishing indians [applause] up. No necessity to grow in a movie made during the witchhunt era of American Life when joe mccarthy, a very sincere man, was finding everywhere, someone. Ade a movie called my son john atory of a woman son bean whose son turns out to a communist defector. Fbi toperate with the save her sons soul. Sons soul. Very well. But she says at one point to her husband, and american legion. Ero, the model of simplicity understands that his son is really a communist. How does he understand this . Because he is such a virtuous american and he is willing to put his son to death for being a communist. Movie represented the climate of the time and something profound in the American Experience or american refusal to accept experience. One thing that has always contributed to the adoration of innocent is adoration of getturity, so what we representing us, a postadolescent who was almost 80 years old. [laughter] and we think of this as a virtue. One of the things that has always afflicted the american reality and the American Vision is this aversion to history. Is not something you read about in a book. It is not even the past. It is the present. Because everybody operate, whether we know it, out of assumptions that are produced only by her history. Our history. The history of our country is not bloodier than other countries, but it is bloody. It is not more criminal than others, but it is criminal. It is not worse than the history of france, england, or any country, but it is different. For several reasons. Ago, i had tv on. I was slicking aimlessly for a while and then did it deliberately. I was watching images, all of them bloody. , all kinds of weapons, corpses, cowboys and indians, the guys and bad guys, and for a moment it seems to me that these wasulsive set of images, i was verya person who images,trapped in these cannot be released from them. These images come out of the history which we always deny. It is important to recognize that we did steal the land from those who were here before us. We stole it. A treaty with those known as american indian. We are talking about the present. Enslave millions of people for no other reason except they were black and we made a lot of money out of slave labor. This is not uncommon. It is part of human history. But it is one thing to do something, and another thing to deny it. Destiny reassured all White Americans that as white people is regard to civilization, they have the right and the duty to exterminate whatever stood in the way of the superior civilization. Slavery is a stranger road to take in order to civilize someone, but that was the argument, so that we can see, thene the legends discovery in africa, the noble after the middle passage, i am [indiscernible] the nobled dancing, centage will translate noble savage will translate into the happy darkie. It corrupts the view from here. In the effort to deny whence we had to make up a series of myths about it. And those cannot replace reality. The reason native americans are called indians is because of a ofumental error on the part adventurer sent out by create by Queen Isabella of spain to find the passage to india. Chris got lost. [laughter] up and saw woke people surrounding him, he had to tell Queen Isabella something, he said, these are indians. Spain. Took one back to in a similar way, once i became the happy darkie, because if i was not, i was a slave. If i was not happy, something was wrong with slavery. So i had to be happy to keep the master happy. Out of this profound misapprehension has come a system of reality, a system of thought,system of which makes reality really hard to reach. Was discovered and put in chains, obviously he was debased, along with women and children, but he was not the only creature who was debased at that moment. Man, the people who put him lessains had also become then human and debased themselves. Disadvantage. Those slave must know master,er, because the the slave life is in the masters slaves life is in the masters hand. Fool the master because the master wants to be fooled. My father never dreamed of telling a white person the truth about anything. It never entered his mind to do so. He did not care what they thought or if they lived or died. He hated them. My turn came. Happened. What that out ofant now this endeavor, what we call the White American has created what he wants to see. The reason that is important and when theg is because same white man looks around the be nigger hes only wants to see. And that is mortally dangerous for the future of this country. For our present fortunes. The world is full of all kinds of people who live quite behind beyond the confines of the american imagination and who had nothing to do with the guilt ridden vision of the world which controls so much of our life and thinking and paralyzes very nearly our moral sense. We are living in a world in which every body and everything is interdependent. White. Ld is not black or the future of the world depends on everyone in this room, and that future depends on to what extent and by what we liberate and by what means we liberate ourselves from a vocabulary that from now cannot bear the weight of reality. Thank you. [applause] host mr. Baldwin, his question comes from the audience these questions come from the audience. There is a movement of brilliant young women writers like toni morrison. Can you please comment on the influences, including yourself, that have produced this movement. Meansldwin that is by no an easy question. Those ladies are friends of mine. Becauseittle frightened i know them all. I am not sure i can answer your question. Toni andhe arrival of was in aalice walker way inevitable. It had to come about because of the role that black women have played in this country and in the lives of black men. A veryalways been troubled and even dangerous role. Because of the position of the black man in this republic which makes the situation of black women who have to find a way to lovers their sons and , it is emasculating them able to tell something of that story. Is i welcome the ventilation of a family quarrel. What they have to say is somewhat terrifying, but true. I do notnfluences, know where to begin. I would have to go back to wb to borrow dubois. Black peoples of to clarify the role of black people because most white historians until today are so busy justifying, they can only lie about it. Maya areni and excavating us from a dangerous myth. Feel the problems of Southern Africa are probably framed properly framed by our media where should the issues be examined more closely in their own african content . Mr. Baldwin i think the isrican vision of africa compulsively defensive. South africa implicates everyone in this room. It brings into question, he reveals, the real meaning of the civil mission, because that is how africa was civilized. Matter howcess, no one might want to pretty it up or what hollywood has told us, the african context cannot exist in the american imagination. Brings into focus the uneasy american imagination, the real role of black people in this country in that american imagination. That whiteeing people have never accepted the real meaning of it and are not that this hase never had been or will be a white country. We have been here together too long. The vocabulary which we are avoiding has to deal with that before dealing with anything as vivid, dangerous, or overwhelming as the south african situation. Question. Lated do you think this administration , the reagan administration, has a different attitude toward the black population in south africa and the concern about the nationalists in nicaragua. Nicaragua . And if so, is this racial . [laughter] mr. Baldwin lets be blunt. I dont think the administration is concerned with nicaragua. It is concerned with its interest. Africacaragua and south are expected to remain the pawns of the socalled free world forever. Of course we are against the becauseof south africa, that means communism, or so they say. Same with nicaragua. I do not have the slightest notion in either case. And it is racial. [laughter] movie,ave you seen the shes gotta have it . Know what you think about the movie. Mr. Baldwin i have not seen it. [laughter] host we will go to another question. Writers of black male who have criticized the portrayal of black men as addicts,rapists, and one drawn by black women, do you feel the image of black men is being falsely portrayed . Mr. Baldwin i think it has always been false. You cannot blame it on black women. The most contravention controversial of the books and movies, well, i thought the toie was awful and i thought give me that black man, you have to tell me more about him. Black men can do all of those things. But then there has to be something wrong with them. You have to let me know something more than the catalog of this mans brutality. Hehe were white, he would be would be portrayed as sick and you would hope he gets well. It is an image of black people that is not entirely alice walkers fault. It is the way the public sees black men since they have heard of black men. It has had a terrible effect on black men. , the motivecontext is to be liberated from these thens by exercising amen. Difficult to to achieve in the process is awkward. Sometimes you have to hold it up where itght and see comes from and if you can live with it. And if you can live with it, you live with it. Host this is a followup. Could you go into detail about the comportment of todays american black male. Mr. Baldwin what should be the role . I Say Something a little difficult. What should be the role of the comportment a difficulty about being a black man in this has always been the difficulty of being a white man because it is assumed and no one thatuestioned it i think the black man wants to be a white man. Observed, as i have im not sure they want to be white. It has to be exhausting. [laughter] flexing your muscles and conquering the world and smiling. [laughter] it wears them out. Of white people, you are watching an imitation and you realize you cannot imitate an imitation. Therefore, the black man in has toerica house be what the public feared it man he is a man, and a cannot be told what to do or to defined byers or others. What the question really means is how should we alter the both the blackso man and the white man can be free. That is what the question means. I apologize to the person who wrote this because i am having trouble reading it. Reality atout facing least by White America. Dont you think its time for realize that ao problems are its trying to blame them on the past and White America . Isnt it time for blacks to face up to other realities . I think that is the general drift of the question. Mr. Baldwin i have heard that before. That black people in general can be accused of blaming their situation on the anybody. Blaming it on the situation is much too terrible for that kind of selfindulgent, but history is not the past, the situation black people in this country is abominable because the country is racist and every institution is racist and the last thing the public wants is an autonomous black community. Anywhere. Everybody knows for example that if you build a school in a ghetto, you build a disaster for very. The answer is not to go to another neighborhood, the answer to that is to rebuild the city so that human beings can live in instead of building for money to make a few people rich. If you want to deal with it, you have to go there. In the meantime, limiting the black community for being upset about the community, community has always been part of the republic. , thewe tried some time ago School Strike in harlem where blacks and Puerto Ricans came into the school declaring themselves responsible for the situation of their children and a successful strike. I was there. Citys broken by the because they did not want the billions of dollars, which is the education system, they didnt want the money controlled by blacks and Puerto Ricans. There is no point in blaming black people for. For it. [applause] why did you choose france as one of your residences . Do you consider yourself an exile or expatriate . How would you compare the french attitude toward blacks with that of america . Is there is much racism in france as here in the states . Mr. Baldwin i went to france in 1948 when i was quite young. I went there with 40, no french, a oneway ticket. In other words, i was getting out of here. I did not so much go to paris as leave new york. Because one day, if i was called nigger one more time, someone was going to die. So i knew i had to split. I grew up in paris and i came back. I never would have gone south if i stayed here. If i stayed alive, i would have been a junkie or prisoner. I do not consider myself an exile or expatriate. I grew up and now i am immune to it, i suppose. White supremacy, racism, comes out of the socalled old world. It was not born in america. It was brought here. , thei first went to europe said, you must be happy to be here. We do not treat the gross negroes the way they do in the states. We are not racist like americans are. I looked around me. The reason they could be so tolerant, or so they thought, was because they did not have any niggers in paris. [laughter] algeria, senegal. It was not part of the social fabric. It was good for me in a way, except my mother did not raise fools. I realized almost at once that the algerian was the nigger in paris. I was in the same hotels with them, sleeping in shifts. I know the way we were treated. In a way, that is what drove me home. The same thing was happening in france. I could not do anything in france because i was not french. So i came home. Now the doctrine of white havemacy which seemed to affected europe less, london, paris, berlin, belgium, it has come back to europe and the same thing is going on in the european cities as is going on in the american cities. For the same reason. How would you compare the artistic and creative climate in france to that in the United States . I think it is fair to say the European Experience , they areugh for them not afraid of artists. It does not mean they love them. Or that they respect them. That someone like that is bound to come along, so they tolerate it. Enough or areng safely dead, build a statue to you. They build a statue to you. In the meantime, you are on your own. [laughter] person readinge your stories and books, i feel a great deal of hatred against the white race. Did i misinterpret . [laughter] mr. Baldwin a great deal of hatred . Host prejudice and hatred against white. Mr. Baldwin i dont think so. My life is too short. I do not see prejudice or hatred against white. Whites. [indiscernib