valerie paleo of the new york historical society talk about artifacts featured in their joint publication, the civil war in 50 objects. in this program, they discuss objects related to soldiers, uniforms, and accoutrements. this conversation took place online at the new york historical society provided the video. >> so now, civil war fashion. this series has been investigating the power of objects to be emblematic of historical events and to help us understand the passed as a historian, i work alongside these treasures every day. it's my great privilege to use them in exhibitions, as well. but harold, let's talk to the audience about what the inspiration for our program is, the civil war in 50 objects. how can only 50 objects still such a sweeping story? >> as the cover shows, we've managed to marry media, message, tactile objects, images, but probably as you describe this is fashion, i will get you for that one. the hardest thing is to preserve, and you know better than most, textiles. the objects we will discuss today, some of them are really extraordinary in terms of how they have survived. >> absolutely. without further ado, let's get to our things this evening. we have some military buttons, a foot locker, and a drum. very interesting and maybe not fashion. but then interesting detail of uniform. courage -- let's start with this uniform. surviving uniforms, or textiles for that matter, in fine condition from the civil war are very rare. and this one is impeccably preserved. and it's unique. you have to admit, it's a pretty kooky looking costume to wear into combat. can you tell us about this? >> as you say, this is a's wild uniform. the soldiers who wore these dads were considered the toughest dudes in the union are confederate army. and they wore these peggy pantaloons, sash is, short jackets. you can see the leggings and, what we don't see is that they also wore a phase with a tassel on top. these uniforms were modeled after's wahab uniforms that the french took from the moroccans so it became kind of a french foreign legion look. they were noted for fierceness. 25 confederate regiments and 75 union regiments started the war in this costume. until someone figured out that they were pretty easy targets in these efforts. it declined, but all through the war they were warren as impractical as they looked. >> there is a strange in congruity between the combat fierceness of the soldiers and the way they were addressed. you stayed in the book they look like harem dancers. it's curious. who popularized this style? >> really, we can give credit to a new yorker from utica. his name was alum or ills worth. i know we have a picture of him coming up. the drill master, and maybe we should do the next slide so people can take a look. there he is. and he did not wear the swab but his cadets did, and he organized a brigade that did shows on stages across the country. he did a very celebrated show in chicago. and what they did was they ran double time around the stage. it's sort of like cheerleaders or the way and march it football stadiums. his guys had rifles. they would put them at their shoulders. a very well received celebrity at a very young age. he also was a law student of abraham lincoln's in his law office and was his bodyguard when he travel to washington from springfield to become president. so they were acquaintances and then organized a unit when the war started. and they got into the fray, really before it actually started for most people. >> at the beginning of the war, else worth turns out to be a war hero and actually a kind of martyr. could you tell our audience why? >> in fact, he was the first war hero for the north. when the war started, when fort summer fell, veteran lethargy's wanted to secure the virginia side of the river opposite washington, d.c.. that meant alexandria. elsewhere it was a frequent guest at the white house and playing with the lincoln boys on the roof of the white house, he noticed a huge confederate flag flying in alexandria. he could see it with a telescope. i have seen the remains of this leg, by the way, it was big. so he decided to march his zouaves across the bridge to the other side of the potomac as the union forces captured alexandria. he went to this hotel. he marched up the stairs to the roof. he tore the flag down. he put it over his shoulders, and they descended the staircase. and as he got midway, the proprietor of this hotel, who was james jackson, he was a relative of the man who would soon become stonewall jackson a couple months later. and jackson shot ills worth dead. and then elsewhere this man shot jackson dead. there were two martyrs in one day. lincoln was devastated. he gave elves worth a funeral and his family attended and wrote a famous letter of condolence to the parents of ellesworth. and it was a great tragedy for the family and as you say, i think we can see how this next image of a painting of ellesworth, is maybe not the most accurate depiction in the world, but they elevated this poor young guy into the martyr that you know overnight. >> one of the soldiers is wearing a zouave costume, but he isn't himself. that's interesting. >> i don't think he did. i think he always wore the regular uniform, but his soldiers wore the zouave uniforms. >> our own zouave uniform collection was owned by juan david p davis. let's see the uniform again. we know he mustered into service at fort skyler in the bronx and served for two years. where did he see action? do we have a sense of that? >> he was in a unit, by the way, called the red legged devils. you can see, they took pride in this uniform and they combined elements of the uniform with a toughness. he was on the virginia peninsula with the mcclelland army and its failed attempt to capture richmond in early 1862. he was in the battle of second bull run. on and on, he was at antietam in september 62. fredericksburg in september 62, one of the worst unit defeat. and he ended his service in virginia and may 1863. almost up until the battle of gettysburg it was before he mastered out. as you see, uniform intact, no holes, no tearing. so that's why we were able to get it at the historical society. >> that's phenomenal. next, we have something a bit different. these are military buttons mounted on a cart. this is also an interesting look at the war. soldiers were avid collectors of souvenirs of their service. these were easy to acquire mementos from battlefields. but reputedly, they also took them by stealing personal property from helpless civilians or prisoners and even corpse is. tell us about the fellow who collected these buttons. >> sorry about choking up. i am not choking up with a motion. it's allergies. it is kind of a macabre hobby. but a clever, one because the buttons were really amazing. each state had its own. each unit had its own. and these are union collected buttons by an enterprising soldier whose name was fred mei there. he was from new york, a pretty elise regiment. and we know that he was also at an extraordinary number of actions, including spots albania, which was bloody. but as you say, they would these from wounded dead servicemen on the field. and we also have evidence that some may have even taken them from shallow graves. there was such an interest and getting them. but also, you mentioned prisoners. it was considered one of the worst insult that you could render to a prisoner of war to rip a button off a uniform. so that was partially humiliation and partially a mania for collectibles. >> let's see just a typical photograph. i am sorry. this is the kinds of scenes that this collector would have taken the buttons off of these jackets very methodically. >> he would have been totally uninhibited about walking up and down this line of corpse is and they also took guns, shoes, whatever they could grant. we have another collection of supplements for the buttons. if we could see the other slide, here are some other confederate buttons from a variety of sources. >> yes. >> they are quite beautiful. it's interesting. we know these are from 1860, soapy for the war. they were created for the uniforms. so lincoln himself receives some gifts of war, souvenirs such as these. what sorts of relics did he receive? >> he got a cane made from the hull of the old iron sides. he got another relic from the burned hall of the mayor a mask, the ship we discussed last week at the battle of monitor. he got some faded, translucent leaves from the battle of gettysburg that had been allegedly bloodied in the frenzy, the battle in july. he got them in the fall when the leaves were falling off the trees. he got socks. he got soap. leaves, walking sticks, anything you can imagine. as he said to his wife once when another suit arrived, unsolicited from a taylor, he said if there is one thing we will get out of this, it's new clothing. >> a yes. our next object also is not clothing, per se, or fashion. but it's a foot locker with belongings. there was nothing luxurious by any stretch of the imagination and living in the field during the civil war. but the experience of generals is very different than that of privates. can we talk about that a little bit? >> generals have their own services and beds and chairs. william payne is a step below. he was a cartography, a math maker, very important in battle in terms of quickly sketching out terrain. so he got what looks rustic, but it's really an amazing the utilitarian foot locker. think of the very best carry on that you can take on an airplane, if anyone can remember doing that. this is the civil war era equivalent of a great carry on. this is been beautifully photographed with a lot of its content. it had apple lets on top there. it has flakes. it has his own souvenirs, metals. and it has his tools of the trade, making tools. i use the school ones that make a circle. this would be one he would use. strap it onto a horse when he was ready to move on. and he did use it in several battles. it has a tape measure. amazingly intact relic. as we keep discovering, the historical society has this just extraordinary range of artifacts that testified to not only the art of war but the everyday life of war. >> in this foot, locker pain has a very interesting patent for a tool that we still use, the coiled flat steel tape measure. that's unique. i don't know if that is that in the corner there. but he won a contest for his invention. >> that's right, the retractable one. we absolutely still use it. it's a much smaller model, but i had forgotten that detail. he was an inventor as well, just like last week's hero, john erickson, on a slightly smaller scale. but we don't make many monitors today. we still make tape measures. and as you have pointed out, he used this and his subsequent engineering career. and we have some evidence that he was helpful in the construction of the brooklyn bridge in the 18 seventies and eighties, and got a metal from the chief engineer, which he also just threw into the foot locker. >> there it is. we have a little silk that advertises it right there. back to this foot locker for just a second, i think chainsaw some serious action and recorded it, being a survey or and the kind of guy who did that sort of thing. where did he see action? where did the foot locker see action? >> the most notable thing he saw and recorded in his diary was what we call the high water mark of the confederacy. it's arguable in terms of military history. but he was on the scene for pickets charge on the third day of gettysburg. so we saw waves and waves of unprotected confederates mass-ing and marching and running toward the union lines and being mowed down by artillery. so he was a witness to the last stand of the confederacy. that never happened again after that. >> and this foot locker was as well. >> yes. >> did he use? is there evidence that he used the foot locker after the war? presumably so? >> i think that there are little souvenirs from his prosaic and exulted post war career. the bridge was one. but he also worked on the flushing railroad. it sounds very unglamorous compared to pickets charge. he was an engineer in the field and i guess he must have thought after the battle of gettysburg, all of this is gravy. i survived. my bag survived. i will just thank my lucky stars that i can have a civilian career and engineering. >> finally, our last object this evening is a snare drum. it's beautiful. it's highly decorative and aesthetically pleasing, but it served quite a utilitarian purpose and battle. tell us what drums were used for. >> i want to endorse what you said about what a great object this is. look at the painted eagle and stars. the eagle is clutching in its claw an american flag. it is an amazing example so drums were not just for military bands. they were used in all aspects of life and probably more importantly in battle. first of all, the sound of the wrath attempt of the drum would be the first thing a soldier heard every morning for revel-y. it would start with a drumroll and then the bugle are. irving berlin famously said i want to murder the bugle or who wakes him in the morning. but the drum came first. the drum was used in the camp and also at the moments where soldiers did have leisure. there were bands that performed in camps. and the drum was the rhythmic staple of the military band as well. but in battle, troops, if they were marching forward, marched off to the tapping of the drum. and they followed the drums. when the battles became smoke filled and bullet riddled, and really scenes of confusion and mayhem, soldiers and precarious positions listened for the sounds of the drums. not only would that signal a place where they could coalesce again or regroup, but also the drums were used for issuing orders. >> you're right they are almost in a category of weapon. >> yes. >> and it had the power to inspire that precision, because of the wrath attach as you say. >> and they marched in rhythm, as you say. >> who owned this drum? >> i think we know, although we don't know who made it, it has a caption here. we know that it was owned by a drummer boy, as they were called, named charles moses be. although we don't have a picture of little charlie, we do have a drummer boy photograph and the next slide that shows just how young and innocent, at first, these drummer boys were. this actually is mosby, okay. >> this is mosby. >> sorry? say it again? >> philip? he was a 14 year old? yes. this is a typical drummer boy. he looks putrefied. some whereas young is seven years old, which i think is quite an extraordinary thing to contemplate. >> yes. they were extraordinary, extraordinarily young. there was a lot of criticism of that by reform groups. they thought that these youngsters, besides being exposed to grave physical danger, worse even, their souls were being subjected to the evils of camp life, like card playing and drinking. and i think it's fair to say that this was a generation that came of age too quickly. some of them came to have unhappy home lives. some of them, because of the romance of the military, they found out it wasn't so romantic. someone with fathers. someone with older brother's. and by the way, life when there wasn't a battle is not a musical celebration. it was pretty dismal. they are expected to be like servants and camps, shining shoes, fetching things for soldiers. and although there were the wealthier officers that would often give them tips to supplement their little salaries, the older soldiers, the poor soldiers rather, the refer guys, maybe the zouaves, since they were the roughest, they were pretty abusive. they slapped them around. they teased them. so it was a very difficult life. and some of them came out of the war, or at least the genre of the drummer boy, came out as a another celebrated kind of volunteer in wartime. >> there were 3800 soldiers that were age 16 or younger who actually served with the federal army. >> do you know what happened to the owner of our drum? mr. philip corral? >> we know that he lived a long, long time. think about a drummer boy of the civil war who survived two years into the presidency of franklin the roosevelt. he survived to see world war i, the depression, automobiles, airplanes, and the new deal. he lived until 1935. he had served, by the way, and the 99th new york and served with a general named winfield scott hancock. nothing demonstrates a transition from old-fashioned work to modern work than the fact that there was a general at the beginning of the war named winfield scott, and at the end of the war there was someone who had been named after him. hancock was no one is hancock the magnificent. you can imagine that the drummer boy had to be spruce and the drum had to be beautiful. we don't know much about his life, but we do know that he was at fredericksburg, gettysburg. he lived to age 88. and i am sure he told stories about the war for the rest of his life. the drummer boy is we're sort of inured to the real fear in some ways. >> they were also romanticized and memorialized later. >> there was winds low home and other artists that did famous renderings. the most famous is probably by william morris hunt. we heard about an episode of the battle of anti time where a drummer boy had been hit by a bullet. he looked up to one of his older comrades and said, if you lift me up, i will carry us i will draw us through. so hunt did a portrait. actually, he did a different drummer boy. this is eastman johnson. eastman johnson did a portrait of the drummer boy perched on the soldiers shoulders. anatomically, it's probably impossible, but there he is sitting on the shoulder and drumming away in the midst of battle. they were lionized in poetry, song, and maybe in a way, society made some excuses for the fact that it had forced these young men into adulthood and danger, well before their time. >> we are about ready for the q&a. maybe we can see the image of the four objects once again. the first question is, do any of these buttons survive? >> the buttons are hard to destroy, unless you squash them. it's one of the advantages of metallic objects. people still find the remnants of bullets and even artillery on civil war battlefields. i am not recommending you search because it's against park service rules to dig. what's amazing about these buttons and their survival, and what makes them unique is that the fellow who we presume snatched them personally did such a great job of catalog. he numbered, them he did a beautiful headline there. that is a hand written confederate button. and then for each number, he listed the origin of the design of the button. others may have, it but i have never seen a collection of these relics catalogued at the time by the person who found them, or seized them. so that makes this unique. >> at new york historical, we also have collections of revolutionary war buttons from the new york city area. so they are very durable objects. >> the civil war museum and harrisburg, pennsylvania has a good collection. the new civil war museum in richmond, which is on the site of an old confederate munitions factory. i hear about it more in the south. i think the west point museum has a good collection as well. >> i think it gettysburg as well. >> yes, they do have a wonderful visitor center. they have a good collection as well. >> was there standardization of union and confederate uniforms and did that apply to the fancier uniforms? >> this was a male on. as you can see from the zouave uniform that doesn't even seem to have buttons on it. the uniforms were a very local affair at first. these buttons bore the emblems of local units, local regimen. they pay tribute to states more than the national authority. so day the uniforms were not uniform. and at the beginning of the civil war, at the battle of balloon, there were a enough confederates wearing blue-ish uniforms to confuse a lot of people, including other confederates and other union men who didn't quite know whether they were shooting at friends or enemies. so i think the federal union army eventually was well funded enough to approach a kind of uniform look, no pun intended, or punish tended i guess. >> there is a question -- >> don't you think the were zouaves always confusing? that standing out, when artillery began to rain down, they were lucky if there was a little cluster of zouaves. simple scrambling. >> but there was a uniformity as well. you couldn't tell if they were confederate or union. >> exactly. >> there is a question and that is how or when can we see the objects in these programs? soon after this book was published, we did have a mini exhibition of all of the objects. but many of them remain on view on the fourth floor of new york historical. and sooner than you know it, we will be back in the museum and able to see them. we should put a label on the ones featured in this program. >> and there is much more. we have a little time and we don't have a special segment devoted to flags. they are beautiful textiles and the historic society has some beautiful flags both north and south, including a little palmetto flag that was flown at fort sumter. one i will talk about, even though we don't have a picture, just think of a little american flag. we don't need to much flagellation to conjure up that image. and this is a period in which we are witnessing or participating in demonstrations all over the city and all over the country. after the battle of fort sumter, which we talked about last week, an american flag had been trampled in the mud by confederates and then returned to major robert anderson, who took it back to new york. and that flake was shown at union square at a demonstration of 11,000 people. the historical society has one of the little flags that a lady put on her window, maybe on broadway or fifth avenue in lower manhattan, to demonstrate her loyalty. and if you do research out the historical society, which i did for this book on several occasions, you find that flake merchants up to the prices of flags and they sold out really quickly, just as they sold out of black crepe when lincoln's funeral headed to brooklyn. i am just amazed at the textiles in the collection. >> and that they have survived. >> what kind of preservation efforts have to be made to keep a uniform like this intact and not just falling into pieces? >> it is quite scientific. we have great technicians and conservatories on staff who monitored the deterioration of textiles, which is one reason why they cannot be viewed for longer than maybe three months tops. and then we put them aside and wait several years before we can show them again. so there are conservation efforts with the proper kind of boxes, temperature controls that go into it. it's complicated. but the colors on this particular costume are just so vivid. it's a testament to our conservatives on staff. >> also, the conservatories dealt with it for 50 years before modern preservation techniques. >> exactly. here is a question about the zouave uniforms that you can probably answer. it includes lincoln. how did he feel about the zouave uniforms? >> he loved the displays. he loved the drills. we are looking at them and laughing at the pajamas. but these guys really proudest and most uninhibited and fearless. you have to be very fearless to wear white booties and a sarong arm. >> and a hat. >> lincoln was a fan of watching military parades, both those that went by the white house in the early days of the war. he was always on hand with his hat over his heart as the soldiers went by. and when he visited the troops in virginia, as he did fairly often, he would offend down the lines. he would have seen these and they were always pointed out to him as the roughest and toughest guys, and having known el's worth, having seen him with his crowd around the white house, he was used to it and felt that they also represented volunteers because all of this was before the draft. these were guys who volunteered not only to serve but to wear this kind of out their outfit. >> here's another question about the zouave uniforms. did mcclelland help introduce the zouaves into the union army? how did grant feel about them? >> that's a very good question. they were embedded in the service before mcclelland became commander. remember, he doesn't take command until after the battle of bull run. and there have been zouaves at the battle. winds low home or once said these guys must be crazy to be out there. although he did some beautiful paintings of camp life at the metropolitan museum of zouaves pitching and lounging around in camp. it is a good supposition to say that mcclelland was involved in this. he was pretty flamboyant in his own way. but no, they were in the service before. and grant, i don't know the answer, but one would assume that these soldiers who were marching south relentlessly through the wilderness, cold harbor and in that awful spring and summer of 1864 and were in the trenches in early 1865, i would guess by this time they would have not been zouaves in the regiment. >> another question about souvenirs like the buttons. were they collected for bragging rights or for market value? >> i think that's another really good question. i would say bragging rights in terms of intimidating prisoners and humiliating enemy prisoners. not so much monetary value, but souvenir value. i was there. i was in the fray. in the same way that american soldiers in world war ii collected detritus, including weapons, enemy weapons, germany and japanese weapons and sabers that they were told they couldn't bring back, they somehow managed to. that's very powerful. and i understand that. >> indeed. >> did lincoln have a point of view regarding looting? >> yes. remember, there was a fine line between foraging and looting. and there was a code of conduct in the service that was pretty rigidly enforced at that time. there was no abuse of women on the home front. exceptions were punished pretty tough flee. but eventually, the union and confederate armies could not supply themselves sufficiently, so they had to live off the land and that meant particularly when robert e. lee marched into maryland in 1862, with a very thin supply line, that meant taking whatever they wanted. pillaging involved chickens and cows and apples. lee marched into maryland at apple harvesting time so he practically took every apple off every tree in maryland. by the way, let's say one thing else about robert e. lee. robert easily also took as hideous souvenirs three black man and sold them back into slavery. he captured three people and enslaved them. that was the most hideous. and we go to sherman. in late 1864, sherman forages his way through georgia. there's two points of view on. that one is that he burned george. at the other is that he spared georgia in some ways by not engaging. i am going to do a teaser. when we talk about apple mannock's in the future, we will talk about another famous bit of souvenir hunting but i will save it for that. >> we have a few minutes left and a couple more questions. who made these uniforms? how expensive were they? were any made in new york city? >> i would say these were expensive. some soldiers paid themselves. the union army gave an allotment two soldiers to buy uniforms. but i am sure that these were funded by philanthropic groups in the states where they were raised. there was a certain pride and wearing the zouave uniforms. we talk about systemic racism and how long it has existed. back in the civil war, even when african american troops were finally allowed to volunteer to risk their lives to save the country, and in slavery, white soldiers were given an allowance to buy uniforms. black soldiers had the cost deducted from their salary for the first few months of the time. frederick douglass came to protest not only that the soldiers were getting a lower pay grade, but that they had to pay for their own uniforms, unlike white soldiers. and lincoln says sorry but we have to do with this way just to get the white soldiers passed this revolution in the integrated army. so that is sort of a sad aspect. there was uniform courage, but the government did not have the courage to treat all uniforms and they are soldiers equally. >> indeed. we have one minute left. >> okay? >> was there any marshall etiquette against drummer boy's? >> i would think that once the smoke fills a battlefield, but let's go where they, go and drummer boys are wounded. that's a great question. i will ask people to read into us and tell us if they know if etiquette exists. i hate ending on a question i don't know the answer to, but there we go. it's inevitable. >> uniform courage is our theme and certainly the drummer boys or exemplary as of that. i am afraid we are out of time. harold, thank you again for being a font of fascinating information. >> every saturday at 8 pm eastern on american history tv on c-span three, go inside a different college classroom and hear about topics ranging from the american revolution, civil, rights and u.s. presidents, to 9/11. >> thanks for your patience and for logging into class. >> with most college campuses closed due to the impact of the coronavirus, watch professors transfer teaching to a virtual setting to engage with students. >> gorbachev did most of the work to change the soviet union, but reagan met him halfway. reagan encouraged him. reagan supported him. >> freedom of the press, i should just mention, madison originally called it freedom of the use of the press. and it is indeed freedom to print things and publish things. it's not a freedom for what we now refer to institutionally as the press. >> lectures in history on american history tv on c-span three, every saturday at 8 pm eastern. lectures in history is also available as a podcast. find it where you listen to podcasts. >> weeknights this month, we are featuring american history tv programs as a preview of what's available every weekend on c-span three. in 2015 for our american artifacts series, we traveled about 45 minutes west of new orleans to visit whitney plantation in wallace, louisiana to learn about the history of slavery in america. the following is a conversation hosted by monte cello. it focuses on how depictions of slavery in jefferson's life have changed in recent decades. watch friday beginning at eight eastern and enjoy american history this tv and every weekend on c-span three. >> next on the civil war, historian harold holzer and valerie paleo the new york historical society talk about artifacts featured in their joint publication,

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